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Author Topic: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??  (Read 13013 times)

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FlaHeatWave

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Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« on: October 13, 2018, 03:29:14 PM »

Seems that the MoCo is focusing on the Cam Chest (Oil Pump/Scavaging/Sealing)for a cure...

The root cause could be the management of increased/erratic crankcase pressures generated within the M8  :nixweiss:

Maybe the Engineers should be looking at ways to alleviate crankcase pressure, such as the breathers / breathing system, and (truely) positive crankcase ventilation??

What say you???
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 03:33:04 PM by FlaHeatWave »
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 05:44:44 PM »

Possibly,  I have a 19 and believe that it sumped last Saturday when I was riding fairly hard got got extremely hot and lost power so I slowed down and stoped at the net town and let it cool for a little while
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2018, 09:53:50 PM »

The general consensus seems to be on other sites / threads is every thing points to pressure / breather (PVC) related.  People are defending HD by saying that the EPA has tied their hands as to size & routing of breathers and such (can't vent anything to the outside air anymore).  My personal experience with motors over the years & with talking to other motor guys is that this theory is not too far off.  This seal might at least be a step in the right direction as to controlling where pressure can build up hereby controlling sumping (cause HD can't just vent everything to the outside air), time will tell.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2018, 10:58:09 PM »

The general consensus seems to be on other sites / threads is every thing points to pressure / breather (PVC) related.  People are defending HD by saying that the EPA has tied their hands as to size & routing of breathers and such (can't vent anything to the outside air anymore).  My personal experience with motors over the years & with talking to other motor guys is that this theory is not too far off.  This seal might at least be a step in the right direction as to controlling where pressure can build up hereby controlling sumping (cause HD can't just vent everything to the outside air), time will tell.
Indian, BMW, Honda, Yamaha, etc. don't seem to have a problem.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2018, 09:15:53 AM »

The general consensus seems to be on other sites / threads is every thing points to pressure / breather (PVC) related.  People are defending HD by saying that the EPA has tied their hands as to size & routing of breathers and such (can't vent anything to the outside air anymore).  My personal experience with motors over the years & with talking to other motor guys is that this theory is not too far off.  This seal might at least be a step in the right direction as to controlling where pressure can build up hereby controlling sumping (cause HD can't just vent everything to the outside air), time will tell.

I think that consensus was about the trans fluid migrating to the primary, not the engine sumping issue. 

Jerry
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2018, 09:28:05 AM »


I'm guessing that new oil pump housing seal is an attempt to prevent the scavenge side of the pump from sucking air from the cam chest instead of oil from the sump.  The actual problem "appears" to be related to the oil pickup in the sump, and I've seen lots of discussions about that in the other forums.  Harley made some major changes in the case design versus that of the TC, which didn't have this problem unless the oil pump became worn or damaged.  I seriously doubt the seal on the pump is the root cause of the problem, but a redesign of the cases would be a more expensive proposition plus a very much more expensive approach if they are forced to apply a fix to the earlier M8's.  In other words, a band-aid fix.  If it works, fine.  For purists who want the root cause fixed, I'm guessing that will be put off by the MoCo until it becomes time to retool for other reasons. 

JMHO - Jerry
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2018, 09:44:27 AM »

Indian, BMW, Honda, Yamaha, etc. don't seem to have a problem.

Exactly! Why is that?
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2018, 04:00:36 PM »

Indian, BMW, Honda, Yamaha, etc. don't seem to have a problem.
no they don't... and the nicest people you'll ever meet ride them  ::)
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2018, 04:46:39 PM »

Possibly,  I have a 19 and believe that it sumped last Saturday when I was riding fairly hard got got extremely hot and lost power so I slowed down and stoped at the net town and let it cool for a little while
Its amazing so many new members on this forum have m8 cvo's that are sumping. Majority have less than 10 posts. Not making light of the problem but jeez!
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2018, 05:40:53 PM »

Its amazing so many new members on this forum have m8 cvo's that are sumping. Majority have less than 10 posts. Not making light of the problem but jeez!
My guess is they did a Google search and this (along w/other) forums came up regarding this issue. :nixweiss:

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2018, 05:48:03 PM »

I'm guessing that new oil pump housing seal is an attempt to prevent the scavenge side of the pump from sucking air from the cam chest instead of oil from the sump.  The actual problem "appears" to be related to the oil pickup in the sump, and I've seen lots of discussions about that in the other forums.  Harley made some major changes in the case design versus that of the TC, which didn't have this problem unless the oil pump became worn or damaged.  I seriously doubt the seal on the pump is the root cause of the problem, but a redesign of the cases would be a more expensive proposition plus a very much more expensive approach if they are forced to apply a fix to the earlier M8's.  In other words, a band-aid fix.  If it works, fine.  For purists who want the root cause fixed, I'm guessing that will be put off by the MoCo until it becomes time to retool for other reasons. 

JMHO - Jerry

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2018, 06:03:56 PM »

Its amazing so many new members on this forum have m8 cvo's that are sumping. Majority have less than 10 posts. Not making light of the problem but jeez!
how many trouble free miles do you have now  :nixweiss:... following closely
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2018, 09:13:05 PM »

Its amazing so many new members on this forum have m8 cvo's that are sumping. Majority have less than 10 posts. Not making light of the problem but jeez!
not all "sumping members" are new..
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2018, 11:24:14 AM »

Exactly! Why is that?
Maybe because HD manufacturers use unit construction/1 fluid vs separate cavities?
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2018, 11:54:24 AM »

I know we will never get the truth but it would be nice to see figures of the true number of motors with this issue. Not just the total number of complaints but overall percentage. As with most vehicle owner websites the most vocal members with problems get the majority of coverage since most owners without issues generally don't post things like "Rode my bike today and nothing bad happened etc." Especially when you realize the majority of a specific vehicle are not members of the website too.
My dad taught me decades ago not to buy into advertising hype since "even Rolls-Royce has repair shops".  :huepfenlol2: so every brand has some issues to deal with over time.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2018, 12:11:33 PM »

I know we will never get the truth but it would be nice to see figures of the true number of motors with this issue. Not just the total number of complaints but overall percentage. As with most vehicle owner websites the most vocal members with problems get the majority of coverage since most owners without issues generally don't post things like "Rode my bike today and nothing bad happened etc." Especially when you realize the majority of a specific vehicle are not members of the website too.
My dad taught me decades ago not to buy into advertising hype since "even Rolls-Royce has repair shops".  :huepfenlol2: so every brand has some issues to deal with over time.

Your comments are very true, you will always hear more from those with a problem than from those with no problem.  Every product will also have some baseline failure rate, nothing is perfect.  But certain things are very rare, and sumping that leads to total engine failure is extremely rare in engines using a dry sump oiling system.  The fact that we never heard of this issue with the Twin Cams (unless the oil pump was damaged), and we have heard of many failures on the M8 since it was introduced, is pretty convincing empirical evidence there is a big problem.  Even if the actual percentage of engines built so far that failed due to sumping is relatively small, it's a pretty big deal if you happen to be one of the folks who had the problem or may have in the future.  Don't forget, some of the reported failures didn't occur immediately, some occurred after tens of thousands of miles.  Then when you add the history with other design issues/quality issues and failures Harley allowed to go on for extended periods of time, it's not hard to understand why this has become an emotional issue. 

Jerry
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2018, 07:40:19 PM »

I can tell HD this, after 2 years of seeing all the sumping issues, It’s really hard to see the value of a new bike. I for one really don’t want to go thru the hassle and wasted time after spending a lot of money to purchase a new Harley to have problems.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2018, 12:34:59 PM »

I am buying a new bike 5 months from now, good Lord willing and the creek don’t rise. However, unless things change drastically between now and then, it will be a new 2019 Indian Chieftain. Just do some research to see how Indian treated there customers when they had some issues with their 116 big bore kit and how they handled the fix. If you are like me you will be impressed.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 08:05:11 AM by T-Roy »
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2018, 01:28:22 PM »

I can tell HD this, after 2 years of seeing all the sumping issues, It’s really hard to see the value of a new bike. I for one really don’t want to go thru the hassle and wasted time after spending a lot of money to purchase a new Harley to have problems.
When the time comes to replace my FLHXSE3....I'll find a FLHXSE3...or 2....with known and 'easily' fixable shortcomings......with very low miles. I know of an O/B '11 with 9000 miles on it...with a TP.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2018, 08:32:58 PM »

no they don't... and the nicest people you'll ever meet ride them  ::)
Your showing your age lol


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swhalen

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Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2018, 08:36:04 PM »

I am kinda new. Went from a 16 RGSE to a 19. Wow what a difference. No sumping here but only have 1000 miles so far. Love all the power


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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2018, 06:41:18 AM »

I am buying a new bike 5 months from now, good Lord willing and the creek don’t rise. However, unless things change drastically between now and then, it will be a new 2019 Indian Chieftain. Just do some research to see how Ondian treated there customers when they had some issues with their 116 big bore kit and how they handled the fix. If you are like me you will be impressed.
I'm sorta where your at right now. If I buy new, I'd like to have the 2019 Roadmaster, the white pearl and silver, put the open fender on with there 19" front tire and wheel, that thing looks bad azz. Also change the front chrome nachele as well. Then I'd also have the 116 big bore kit installed.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2018, 08:44:10 PM »

Regardless of the number of sumping engines, a billion dollar company that’s made bikes since 1903 should be able to design and produce a trouble free engine.  If the Japanese, Polaris, and the Germans can do it, I have no explanation of why a company with such deep pockets cannot.  There is no way I’d risk $45k+ on an M8 CVO.  However, some will, just not me.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2018, 09:08:23 PM »

Regardless of the number of sumping engines, a billion dollar company that’s made bikes since 1903 should be able to design and produce a trouble free engine.  If the Japanese, Polaris, and the Germans can do it, I have no explanation of why a company with such deep pockets cannot.  There is no way I’d risk $45k+ on an M8 CVO.  However, some will, just not me.

Well a 1 minute search for BMW engine problems brought this. Will the MoCo pounding ever cease???

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2018, 10:34:03 PM »

Well a 1 minute search for BMW engine problems brought this. Will the MoCo pounding ever cease???

You forgot to note the response BMW gave him on his engine noise concern.  They are buying the bike back at full price.  None of that "it's normal, they all do that", none of the just giving the bike back and telling the customer to ride it until it fails so they can find the problem, or any of the other usual ploys Harley and it's dealers use.

Every company on the planet has defects and failures.  The difference is in the amount of those issues and in the response to them. 

Jerry
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2018, 10:41:57 PM »

Well a 1 minute search for BMW engine problems brought this. Will the MoCo pounding ever cease???

That was a short thread with positive outcome.  It only took BMW one day from the initial post to offer to buy the bike back.  Heck, HD will keep your bike for months and never offer any positive outcome.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2018, 11:08:59 PM »

That was a short thread with positive outcome.  It only took BMW one day from the initial post to offer to buy the bike back.  Heck, HD will keep your bike for months and never offer any positive outcome.

 :oops: :nixweiss:

No OOPS really! I did not see a single reference to response time, or positive outcomes in the post I responded to. Just correcting the post saying BMW's etc are essentially perfect!

Also, I suppose I could have included the very first response to the OP's post in the BMW thread. I'll include it here to show that BMW does not have a pristine record on response  either!

It's just that every time I take a break from actually riding my bike and pop in here to find threads where a member posts an actual question and two-thirds of the replies a just pounding on Moco. No wonder this forum has lost it's luster to new members. Who wants to buy their dream bike and go read how big of a POS it is! Most just go ride their bike rather than live on this site crying like babies day after day! :)

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2018, 08:33:41 AM »

Well a 1 minute search for BMW engine problems brought this. Will the MoCo pounding ever cease???
Will the MoCo make a engine that is reliable for 50K miles for the CVO?

First two years of the 110, cylinders leaking oil on block, the rest of the production run, compensator issues and lifter issues.  Yep my 12 left me stranded with clutch and compensator.  My 15 left me stranded with failed lifters.  HD still having lifter issues with the 110 in the 10 year of production.

M8, sumping in 2017, and 2018.  Now it looks like a couple 2019's.

I'm sure the bashing will stop, when they make a motor that does not fail before 50K miles.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2018, 08:40:00 AM »

No OOPS really! I did not see a single reference to response time, or positive outcomes in the post I responded to. Just correcting the post saying BMW's etc are essentially perfect!

Also, I suppose I could have included the very first response to the OP's post in the BMW thread. I'll include it here to show that BMW does not have a pristine record on response  either!

It's just that every time I take a break from actually riding my bike and pop in here to find threads where a member posts an actual question and two-thirds of the replies a just pounding on Moco. No wonder this forum has lost it's luster to new members. Who wants to buy their dream bike and go read how big of a POS it is! Most just go ride their bike rather than live on this site crying like babies day after day! :)

Bike to riding for me! Have fun!
I am willing to be I ride a lot more miles a year on my bikes than you do on yours.  Yet I still bash HD for making motors that are unreliable and fail.  I have had 3 since 2012 fail.  Lifters took out two different bike motors. 

With all the failures for sumping on the 17, I traded mine for an 18 hoping the issue was fixed.  It wasn't so I still worry about my 18 with 24,000 miles on it.

So while I complain about the crappy motor, mainly because it a pain having the motor fail hundred of miles from home while on a trip.  I know from experience. 

But you do not get 24,000 miles on a year old bike by not riding it....
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2018, 09:21:26 AM »

Well a 1 minute search for BMW engine problems brought this. Will the MoCo pounding ever cease???

I believe your post supports my comments more than it supports yours.  How many more engine failure posts did you find for BMW...any reoccurring engine failures noted over and over?  I did note in your post that BMW admitted a problem and agreed to replace the bike...how about that. 
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2018, 10:23:41 AM »

24K with out issue that's awesome! The subject of this thread is on target. A few weeks ago a good friend of mine was in town and we took my 120" M8 and the BMW K1600B out for a ride. We sat side by side at 125 MPH GPS for 5 miles. If that won' make it sump nothing will. The 2017 120" M8 has the oldest oil pump ever made still in it. The only mod done to the oiling system was sealing up the piston oilers. And to give credit where due, this issue was discovered by the big brain at TTS.

https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=113609.0

Steve@fullsac.com




I am willing to be I ride a lot more miles a year on my bikes than you do on yours.  Yet I still bash HD for making motors that are unreliable and fail.  I have had 3 since 2012 fail.  Lifters took out two different bike motors. 

With all the failures for sumping on the 17, I traded mine for an 18 hoping the issue was fixed.  It wasn't so I still worry about my 18 with 24,000 miles on it.

So while I complain about the crappy motor, mainly because it a pain having the motor fail hundred of miles from home while on a trip.  I know from experience. 

But you do not get 24,000 miles on a year old bike by not riding it....
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charles05663

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2018, 11:51:11 AM »

No OOPS really! I did not see a single reference to response time, or positive outcomes in the post I responded to. Just correcting the post saying BMW's etc are essentially perfect!

Also, I suppose I could have included the very first response to the OP's post in the BMW thread. I'll include it here to show that BMW does not have a pristine record on response  either!

It's just that every time I take a break from actually riding my bike and pop in here to find threads where a member posts an actual question and two-thirds of the replies a just pounding on Moco. No wonder this forum has lost it's luster to new members. Who wants to buy their dream bike and go read how big of a POS it is! Most just go ride their bike rather than live on this site crying like babies day after day! :)

Bike to riding for me! Have fun!

The key points I see in the 2nd response is:
Sometimes the hoops that BMW makes their dealers jump through...

and
but in the end BMW has always come through...

They seem to make the dealer's take the hit to get it right and not the customer.  And they make it right.

It sounds like they stand behind their product and don't blame the customer.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 11:53:52 AM by charles05663 »
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HighOnHD

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2018, 12:24:36 PM »

The key points I see in the 2nd response is:
Sometimes the hoops that BMW makes their dealers jump through...

and
but in the end BMW has always come through...

They seem to make the dealer's take the hit to get it right and not the customer.  And they make it right.

It sounds like they stand behind their product and don't blame the customer.

 :oops: :nixweiss:

I did another quick "BMW engine problems" search and go figure I found essentially the same kind of typical internet complaints by "owners" of BMW as appear here on this site. I'm not going to post all those here. Besides even if there are fewer BMW complaints online than HD complaints online what does that prove? Maybe it could simply be BMW riders as a group cry less than HD riders as a group?? :)

My point is simply this... anything with tits or tires is going to cost you! Hopefully you don't let that cost keep you from getting the most out of each and enjoy them along the way! Life's too short. Why spend it online sniveling? Everyone here has a choice! Make it and move on for god's sake.
 
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dayne66

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2018, 12:32:29 PM »

BMWs first line of defense is NOT to look for a way to deny coverage!
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2018, 01:06:16 PM »


My point is simply this... anything with tits or tires is going to cost you!



I've got tits.  They're not awesome but I've got 'em.  And I'm absolutely low-freaking-maintenance.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2018, 01:10:06 PM »




Oh my gawd.  After that ^^ insight just had an epiphany.  A moment of revelation.  If I had tits that were awesome I'd almost never have to leave the house  ??? !
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2018, 02:18:01 PM »

When I started this Thread, I was looking for more of Technical / Design opinions and suggestions for improvements to the M8s??

Seems that the M8s with larger displacements / performance mods are more prone to sumping?? Which could be attributed to increased crankcase pressures "overpowering" the Oiling System / Breather design,,,

'Thinking that the Thread posted by Fullsac re the Piston Oilers leaking could be a contributing factor,,, 'Don't know how prevalent that issue is?? If it is prevalent, that could be an easy fix...

One ore thing,,, are any M8 owners noticing any pressure buildup when they pull the dipstick soon after shutting the Bike down (sumping or not)??

Wasn't really interested in Harley vs BMW, or anybody else for that matter :nixweiss:
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2018, 02:18:17 PM »



Oh my gawd.  After that ^^ insight just had an epiphany.  A moment of revelation.  If I had tits that were awesome I'd almost never have to leave the house  ??? !
Except to claim our bazillions!!!!
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2018, 05:05:58 PM »

Except to claim our bazillions!!!!


No, not bazillions; BRAzillions!!   :huepfenlol2:
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2018, 06:07:11 PM »

We'll be able to afford new replacement Harleys to ride after each one sumps....we can have a semi-load of Harleys follow us and just toss the sumped bikes in the ditch!

 
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Twolanerider

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2018, 06:29:13 PM »

We'll be able to afford new replacement Harleys to ride after each one sumps....we can have a semi-load of Harleys follow us and just toss the sumped bikes in the ditch!


That would be so awesome.  Then someday a forensic moderator pathologist could follow along our path and carbon date the throw aways to learn all about human society during the time we rode.  History can record it as the era of the sump.  I'm all tingly and excited.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2018, 06:33:32 PM »

My local dealer does not admit that they have even heard of sumping......and I know of two bikes in the shop now for that very issue.
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T-Roy

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2018, 08:10:13 PM »

My local dealer does not admit that they have even heard of sumping......and I know of two bikes in the shop now for that very issue.

That right there is one of the BIG REASONS I will be trading 2 of my 3 Harleys in on a new 2019 Indian Chieftain Elite or Limited in several months. Was going to get another Harley CVO but every dealer I go to including their service departments when asked about any sumping issues with the 117 engines look at me like I have 3 heads!!!!!

The very first Indian Dealer I visited, I asked about issues with their 116 Big Bore Kit. I was told yep they have some connecting rod issues and have stopped sale to correct the issue. Since then Indian has beefed them up with the help of Carillo which has built the rods for them. Indian has the kits back available and has recalled all previous ones sold whether they were tuned aftermarket with aftermarket exhaust or not!!!! They even included a 500 mile break in oil change for some!!!
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2018, 12:48:44 PM »

how many trouble free miles do you have now  :nixweiss:... following closely
12k so far. 2 up, 1 up. Long trips, short. High altitude, high speed (110 mph), no issues.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2018, 09:59:43 AM »

That right there is one of the BIG REASONS I will be trading 2 of my 3 Harleys in on a new 2019 Indian Chieftain Elite or Limited in several months. Was going to get another Harley CVO but every dealer I go to including their service departments when asked about any sumping issues with the 117 engines look at me like I have 3 heads!!!!!

The very first Indian Dealer I visited, I asked about issues with their 116 Big Bore Kit. I was told yep they have some connecting rod issues and have stopped sale to correct the issue. Since then Indian has beefed them up with the help of Carillo which has built the rods for them. Indian has the kits back available and has recalled all previous ones sold whether they were tuned aftermarket with aftermarket exhaust or not!!!! They even included a 500 mile break in oil change for some!!!
Not sure if you're interested in buying outside your area, but the IM dealer in Savannah offers a lifetime powertrain warranty on every new bike (at no cost) and the warranty work can be performed by IM or an independent shop.  You also should be able to dicker on the price.
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J.D.

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2018, 10:03:41 AM »

If I was looking for a new heavy bike (I'm not), I'd look at the Goldwing or BMW for "high tech" or Indian for "low tech".  All three of these are appealing to me personally more than the 2019 Harleys, all things considered.
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T-Roy

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2018, 10:42:14 AM »

If I was looking for a new heavy bike (I'm not), I'd look at the Goldwing or BMW for "high tech" or Indian for "low tech".  All three of these are appealing to me personally more than the 2019 Harleys, all things considered.

I have looked at all of the above and test rode. That BMW is super smooth and fast. But none of them stir my soul like a Harley or Indian do.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2018, 10:45:08 AM »

Not sure if you're interested in buying outside your area, but the IM dealer in Savannah offers a lifetime powertrain warranty on every new bike (at no cost) and the warranty work can be performed by IM or an independent shop.  You also should be able to dicker on the price.

HMMM I might just have to consider a road trip. I wonder if the Savannah IM dealer would send me a copy of that warranty and deal over the phone so I could see the fine print before committing to travel that far?
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2018, 11:32:40 AM »


Just ran across a term I'm not familiar with.  What exactly is an "IM" dealer?

Jerry
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dayne66

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2018, 12:13:21 PM »

Just ran across a term I'm not familiar with.  What exactly is an "IM" dealer?

Jerry
Indian Motorcycles...I think.
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harleytacticalnut

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2018, 03:19:57 PM »

No OOPS really! I did not see a single reference to response time, or positive outcomes in the post I responded to. Just correcting the post saying BMW's etc are essentially perfect!

Also, I suppose I could have included the very first response to the OP's post in the BMW thread. I'll include it here to show that BMW does not have a pristine record on response  either!

It's just that every time I take a break from actually riding my bike and pop in here to find threads where a member posts an actual question and two-thirds of the replies a just pounding on Moco. No wonder this forum has lost it's luster to new members. Who wants to buy their dream bike and go read how big of a POS it is! Most just go ride their bike rather than live on this site crying like babies day after day! :)

Bike to riding for me! Have fun!
Thats just the point the one of us that have experienced such a disaster can’t ride the POS’ because they are in the shop most of the riding seasons. If no one keeps posting their opinions of such a shoody business practices then Harley will keep ripping people off. They are true scums of the earth from top to bottom including internal employees as well as most dealers. And that’s a fact.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2018, 03:30:17 PM »

Indian Motorcycles...I think.

Thanks.  There are way to many abbreviations and acronyms these days for my feeble old mind to keep up with.  All I could come up with for IM was instant messaging, and of course that made no sense at all. ;D

Jerry
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harleytacticalnut

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2018, 03:32:56 PM »

I did another quick "BMW engine problems" search and go figure I found essentially the same kind of typical internet complaints by "owners" of BMW as appear here on this site. I'm not going to post all those here. Besides even if there are fewer BMW complaints online than HD complaints online what does that prove? Maybe it could simply be BMW riders as a group cry less than HD riders as a group?? :)

My point is simply this... anything with tits or tires is going to cost you! Hopefully you don't let that cost keep you from getting the most out of each and enjoy them along the way! Life's too short. Why spend it online sniveling? Everyone here has a choice! Make it and move on for god's sake.
Yeah but it’s the fact Harley is producing pure junk and not cooperating with the issues customers are having. If I wanted a bike made from all Chinese parts and assembled here in America I would consider buying an Asian bike that is actually reliable and doesn’t cost $45k, which I have had three $45k  m8 bikes since their introduction and lost my ass on everyone of those sumping POS’. Got rid of them all and will not consider another Harley if my life depended on it. And this attitude is based on how corporate responded and handled all three situations. True scum of the earth from top to bottom. Never again bro.
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T-Roy

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2018, 08:00:26 PM »

Thanks.  There are way to many abbreviations and acronyms these days for my feeble old mind to keep up with.  All I could come up with for IM was instant messaging, and of course that made no sense at all. ;D

Jerry

Sorry Jerry I should have spelled it out. Especially considering the first time I saw it over on Indian motorcycles.net I didn’t have a clue what it was either. Looked into the free lifetime power train warranty and you can’t perform any maintenance yourself. Not even oil changes. You have to go back to either the selling dealer or and approved licensed shop of the warranty companies choosing. So if you rack up miles like some of us, my 2013 CVO Road King has right at 60,000 miles, not being able to do your own oil changes could get pretty expensive to keep the warranty intact. Not to mention brake fluid and fork oil changes.

Sorry I did not intend to hijack a thread back to the sumping issues now.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 08:02:22 PM by T-Roy »
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FlaHeatWave

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2018, 08:21:36 PM »

Yeah but it’s the fact Harley is producing pure junk and not cooperating with the issues customers are having. If I wanted a bike made from all Chinese parts and assembled here in America I would consider buying an Asian bike that is actually reliable and doesn’t cost $45k, which I have had three $45k  m8 bikes since their introduction and lost my ass on everyone of those sumping POS’. Got rid of them all and will not consider another Harley if my life depended on it. And this attitude is based on how corporate responded and handled all three situations. True scum of the earth from top to bottom. Never again bro.
You didn't learn nothing from the first kick of the mule???
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2018, 09:40:02 PM »

HMMM I might just have to consider a road trip. I wonder if the Savannah IM dealer would send me a copy of that warranty and deal over the phone so I could see the fine print before committing to travel that far?

Im sending you a private message
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2018, 09:51:54 PM »

You didn't learn nothing from the first kick of the mule???
Unfortunately not. Especially when I got suckered on the 17’s, then they said they fixed them on the 18’s and now the huge cover up by them saying everything is fixed on the 19’s. They are a bunch of lying ass scum bags that could care less as long as they keep selling these bikes made of Chinese parts. The art of deception. They are the master of it.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2018, 10:07:21 PM »

Yes, I've asked at the local dealer, both service and sales, if they've seen sumping M8s, compensator failures, lifter failures, etc.  All the issues that are becoming common discussion topics here.  "Nope."
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2018, 10:26:13 AM »

Sad to hear about someone trying to keep buying their way out of the Moco's issues. I am glad I stopped buying with my 07 which has been pretty reliable since taking out the 110 and after rebuild of the 131. Most of all I am glad I kept my old 96 WG with a EVO motor that has never let me down over the years. I can even see how much better the chrome parts are whether they be HD chrome or even the Kury chrome is better than what is on my 07. Also the Corbin seat is way better condition than the Corbin on my 07. Seems not only HD quality has deteriated.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2018, 08:52:08 AM »

Not sure if you're interested in buying outside your area, but the IM dealer in Savannah offers a lifetime powertrain warranty on every new bike (at no cost) and the warranty work can be performed by IM or an independent shop.  You also should be able to dicker on the price.
Friendship of Bristol Indian (VA) offers lifetime warranty on there engines and drivetrain and you can do your own service work, just keep the receipts of the oils and filters you buy. Now thats a good deal there !!
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2018, 10:42:14 PM »

Friendship of Bristol Indian (VA) offers lifetime warranty on there engines and drivetrain and you can do your own service work, just keep the receipts of the oils and filters you buy. Now thats a good deal there !!

Yes, Bristol and Savannah are the same owners.
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swhalen

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2018, 08:14:36 PM »

I haven’t had one problem with my 19 and I cruise for hrs at between 80-90. Sorry you are so disgruntled


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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2018, 11:18:47 PM »

I haven’t had one problem with my 19 and I cruise for hrs at between 80-90. Sorry you are so disgruntled


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I love hearing that!
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2018, 01:41:10 PM »

I love hearing that!

Me too.

Another point regarding the BMW vs Harley complaints is the number of sales. Does Harley sale more bikes than BMW?

Rob
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SDCVO

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2018, 01:10:45 AM »

Me too.

Another point regarding the BMW vs Harley complaints is the number of sales. Does Harley sale more bikes than BMW?

Rob
Harley sells the same quantity of bikes in weeks that BMW sells in a year. Certainly not talking trash about BMW as I love my new Grand America, that's just a fact.
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Alan

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2018, 07:57:06 AM »

I haven’t had one problem with my 19 and I cruise for hrs at between 80-90. Sorry you are so disgruntled


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I did many miles out west with cruise at 85 mph on my 18 CVO Road Glide this summer.  Only one time did it feel like it was loosing any power (sign of sumping)  That was after a couple hard accelerations to get around some idiot, it was 98 degrees out and I hit 100 + a couple time.  Once I settled back in at 85 for a bit it felt normal again.  Couldn't get it to feel like that again in the next 8K miles.
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Heatwave

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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2018, 12:00:04 PM »

Harley sells the same quantity of bikes in weeks that BMW sells in a year. Certainly not talking trash about BMW as I love my new Grand America, that's just a fact.

That might be true for US sales but definitely not for global sales.

- In 2017 BMW sold 164,000 motorcycles globally which was a 13.2% INCREASE over 2016 unit sales globally (7th year in a row of sales growth). This was there greatest annual growth ever for BMW motorcycles with projected strong growth for 2018 according to their financial reports.

- By comparison, Harley sold 243,000 motorcycles globally in 2017 which was a 7.5% DECREASE over 2016 unit sales globally. This was the 4th year of annual sales decline for Harley with a significant further decline projected in unit sales for 2018 according to their financial reports.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 12:04:09 PM by Heatwave »
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2018, 08:55:28 AM »


Assuming they can get EPA and NHTSA to look the other way, perhaps they can fix their oiling system problem by reaching back in their history and incorporating a constant loss system.  No more worries about sumping or oil changes or oil temps; just remember to keep the tank filled.  Oh, and make sure the drain tube isn't located in front of the rear tire.

Jerry
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #68 on: April 23, 2019, 03:13:51 AM »

Not happy, my 2019 CVO SG decided to sump today with 6000km's on the clock.

Currently at a regional dealership as we were touring and are 1000km from home.

Hope to get some answers tomorrow.
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2019, 08:28:39 AM »

I haven’t had one problem with my 19 and I cruise for hrs at between 80-90. Sorry you are so disgruntled


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Road speed seems to have nothing to do with sumping; the many reports I've read seem to involve sustained higher rpm's when engaging in a more "sporting" riding style.  I don't think I've seen anyone claim they sumped just cruising down the highway at 2000 - 3000 rpm.  :nixweiss:

Jerry
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2019, 10:42:24 AM »

Road speed seems to have nothing to do with sumping; the many reports I've read seem to involve sustained higher rpm's when engaging in a more "sporting" riding style.  I don't think I've seen anyone claim they sumped just cruising down the highway at 2000 - 3000 rpm.  :nixweiss:

Jerry

I have a customer who's bike has sumped twice at cruise. The first time he had the cruise control set 75 MPH and the ECM slowly rolled the throttle to wide open as the engine lost power in an effort to maintain the setting. It went unnoticed until it was pinging and losing speed. By then the motor was toast. The second time he recognized the symptoms and pulled over, let it idle as I had instructed, it re-primed, cleared the sump and he was on his way. Most of the time this man is beating the hell out of. Never had an issue until he slows down to legal speeds? I just put an S+S triple rotor pump in it. Is it fixed? I wouldn't bet on it.

Steve@fullsac.com
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Re: Sumping, should the MoCo be looking elsewhere??
« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2019, 08:35:46 AM »

I have a customer who's bike has sumped twice at cruise. The first time he had the cruise control set 75 MPH and the ECM slowly rolled the throttle to wide open as the engine lost power in an effort to maintain the setting. It went unnoticed until it was pinging and losing speed. By then the motor was toast. The second time he recognized the symptoms and pulled over, let it idle as I had instructed, it re-primed, cleared the sump and he was on his way. Most of the time this man is beating the hell out of. Never had an issue until he slows down to legal speeds? I just put an S+S triple rotor pump in it. Is it fixed? I wouldn't bet on it.

Steve@fullsac.com

My 18 sumped once.  I knew what sumping was and how it would feel.  So like you said, I pulled over let it idle while up right, not on stand in and a few minutes got back on road, it had cleared.

S&S claims they have not heard of a bike sumping with their triple rotor pump.  I was asking about it at bike week.  They would not say it would fix sumping, or cure it.  They would only state they have not heard of a bike with their pump sumping.
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2023 FLTRXSE Whiskey Neat
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2019 FLTRXSE Red Pepper / Magnetic Gray Traded
2018 FLTRXSE Gunship Gray  Traded
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2015 FLTRUSE Abyss Blue / Crushed Saphire Traded
2013 FLHRSE5 Diamond Dust 117  Traded
2012 FLTRXSE White Gold Pearl / Starfire Black  Traded
2009 FLTRSE3 Silver/Titanium  Traded
2003 Fatboy, real fire paint set,
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