Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Hoist!]

My 110 gets 39-41 MPG at 141.9 HP, and 142.1 T. And, it's bone stock. 

And then you woke up! Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

No contest there!
Go riding wins!

Riding definitely wins Chip.  And I would if the damn thing just stopped pinging  !

Fortunately that's the only thing I'm chasing.  And the system makes that particular chase pretty easy.  Five minutes longer than it takes to get the saddlebag and side cover on and off and you're done.  Then it's ride it some more  .

[FR8TRN]

Harry, I had intended to lean out the 13:1 mixture for a bit of economy's sake on longer trips; until the weather warmed up.

Counting my own there are three bikes I'm familiar here close to me with the TM and AT.  All started suffering detonation when we passed from winter and early springs to days around 80 or above.  Accelerating within the highway cruising RPM range or pulling from there.

Warmer days have, of course, made it even worse.  I've already retarded the timing to compensate for it.  But as the days have gotten warmer yet the problem recurs.  After having mentioned it in passing once here several others have PMd saying they'd had or were having similar issues.

It's quite frankly a bit annoying that the maps are tuned so aggressively (for the sake of numbers?) that they can't be ridden in the summer time.  Or perhaps they tune in a dyno room that is just too well air conditioned for use then in real world application.  Whatever the reason it's an annoyance.

I've already taken enough out of mine that I can feel it in the seat-of-the-pants-dyno rather appreciably.  Unless they have some different base mapping to work things differently I'm still going to have to take more out of it too.

I don't fault the hardware at all here.  In fact the hardware is great as it allows us to do things and compensate for issues ourselves that could not otherwise be done.  The base map provided to be used by the hardware, however, is for me (and others) a pinging SOB in even moderately warm weather though.

I noticed the same.  I have a HD Stage I 103" on the '07 Ultra and Zippers doesn't have a map specific to it.  I tried running various maps as recommended by Zippers, none were close enough to get the timing NEAR what I needed it to be.  We tried adjusting the Timing table, backed it down so far I was at the end, and had lost a significant amount of power because of it.  Tried running to FL and back on that, pinging wasn't bad around here, figured I'd try, AFR was about 13.0:1 and ramped down to 12.5:1, by the time I got to FL my mufflers were BLUE, seriously BLUE.  Headed back to MD and when I got home, the Chrome was peeling and cracked all over the place where they were blue, had to toss em out.  I got about 30-32MPG on the trip.  Switched back to the stock ECM and now I'm getting 40-43MPG, the bike seems to run better, pingin is gone, and the TMAT is on the shelf.

[Twolanerider]

I noticed the same.  I have a HD Stage I 103" on the '07 Ultra and Zippers doesn't have a map specific to it.  I tried running various maps as recommended by Zippers, none were close enough to get the timing NEAR what I needed it to be.  We tried adjusting the Timing table, backed it down so far I was at the end, and had lost a significant amount of power because of it.  Tried running to FL and back on that, pinging wasn't bad around here, figured I'd try, AFR was about 13.0:1 and ramped down to 12.5:1, by the time I got to FL my mufflers were BLUE, seriously BLUE.  Headed back to MD and when I got home, the Chrome was peeling and cracked all over the place where they were blue, had to toss em out.  I got about 30-32MPG on the trip.  Switched back to the stock ECM and now I'm getting 40-43MPG, the bike seems to run better, pingin is gone, and the TMAT is on the shelf.

Mine isn't that bad (yet) Fr8.  But I have retarded timing enough (3 degrees across the crusing RPM range and stepped up at each end from there) that I do notice the differerence.  Pinging is now gone on days up about 90 degrees or so depending on humidity.  Above 90 it's still there.  95 it's there even climbing a moderate grade with the cruise control on at highway speed.  It won't be rideable in its current trim in high summer.  The trip to Nelson next month is a real concern.

This system was great in the winter time (fat lot of good that does is in the real world).  And I do love the control we have over things.  The maps Zippers has deployed (at least in my case and a couple of known others) are very problematic though.  TMax doesn't use detonation sensing so the system can't compensate based on ambients.  You have to make it ready for the world it's in.  Making it ready for that world in summer time is proving to be a real chore.

I'm strongly considering reinstalling the stock ECM and getting it tuned before the Nelson trip.  I called Zippers about this.  Described the circumstances.  Was told to wait for a response.  That was a week and a half ago.  The problem does seem to illustrate why 13:1 is their base though.  And yet it still suffers detonation.  That's a fair bit of fuel to be dumped in a hole to still ping like this (unless you're feathering the throttle and driving it very carefully).

[Talon]

Come on Guys, I was already to go TMAT, now I'm not sure again!!! Keep us posted on you out come!

[Midnight Rider]

Mine isn't that bad (yet) Fr8.  But I have retarded timing enough (3 degrees across the crusing RPM range and stepped up at each end from there) that I do notice the differerence.  Pinging is now gone on days up about 90 degrees or so depending on humidity.  Above 90 it's still there.  95 it's there even climbing a moderate grade with the cruise control on at highway speed.  It won't be rideable in its current trim in high summer.  The trip to Nelson next month is a real concern.

This system was great in the winter time (fat lot of good that does is in the real world).  And I do love the control we have over things.  The maps Zippers has deployed (at least in my case and a couple of known others) are very problematic though.  TMax doesn't use detonation sensing so the system can't compensate based on ambients.  You have to make it ready for the world it's in.  Making it ready for that world in summer time is proving to be a real chore.

I'm strongly considering reinstalling the stock ECM and getting it tuned before the Nelson trip.  I called Zippers about this.  Described the circumstances.  Was told to wait for a response.  That was a week and a half ago.  The problem does seem to illustrate why 13:1 is their base though.  And yet it still suffers detonation.  That's a fair bit of fuel to be dumped in a hole to still ping like this (unless you're feathering the throttle and driving it very carefully).

Don, I'd be REAL concerned headed to Nelson where you are likely to encounter temps all over the board.  At least you've got John nearby, so you could run up there and get a good tune with the PCIII and stock ECM, unless you'd rather use your SERT.  You're just at 10.5:1 compression, right?

[Twolanerider]

Come on Guys, I was already to go TMAT, now I'm not sure again!!! Keep us posted on you out come!

Talon, I was a supporter of the sytem.  Even though I'd had other issues with Zippers the Thundermax system was something I liked; in cool weather.  In fact I'm a little distressed because I know some of our friends here also acquired the system after I'd been so pleased with it. 

I'm still a fan of the technology.  Zippers' implementation of it, however, certainly seems to be causing me and others a problem right now.  The only thing I can say at this point is wait, please wait, until we see how Zippers responds to these concerns and if those concerns are effective in correcting what is a significant issue.

I just left a post for Kitzmiller in the Zippers Tech Support section of the site.  I would not expect him to surf the entire site and just accidentally have found this thread.  When he logs on again, however, that post in "his" section will direct him here.  I'll choose to be optimistic that they will have an effective and fair solution until proven otherwise.  Once we know they've got it right and supported us well then I'd have no qualm with recommending the hardware package again.  But we've got to know first we'll be able to ride in the summer time.....

[Talon]

Saw your post, lets see what happens, I'll be waiting, there's always SERT/Dyno!!!

[Hoist!]

It seems that everyone is confused as to how the TMAT autotunes the bike. My impressions are that EVERY BIKE NEEDS TO BE PROPERLY TUNED, regardless of the type of tuning system you use. The TMAT will Autotune to the conditions dictated by the map it's given to Autotune to. Therefore, the correctly tuned map would be required to have the system work properly. I don't see this system eliminating Dyno Tuning, just enhancing it. If you make changes to the bike, you need to have it retuned and generate a new custom map. Just like a PC, if close enough is good enough for you, drop in a canned map. For proper tuning, have it tuned to you engine. The TMAT doesn't magically tune your bike. It works in conjunction with the base map you start with. It makes sense to me that this base map be as accurate as possible and be set for your engine specifically. Autotuning just keeps it there regardless of changing conditions, but not changing engine components. Maybe a thorough, accurate description of what this system does and doesn't do, from Zippers, is in order here. JMO.

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

It seems that everyone is confused as to how the TMAT autotunes the bike. My impressions are that EVERY BIKE NEEDS TO BE PROPERLY TUNED, regardless of the type of tuning system you use. The TMAT will Autotune to the conditions dictated by the map it's given to Autotune to. Therefore, the correctly tuned map would be required to have the system work properly. I don't see this system eliminating Dyno Tuning, just enhancing it. If you make changes to the bike, you need to have it retuned and generate a new custom map.

To a point, yes.  Howie, the significant downside to the TMax is that (relatively speaking) no one can tune it.  That's why, all technical capabilities notwithstanding, I had absolutely no interest until the autotuning addition became available.

With that addition, however, the system is pitched from the vendor as being supplied with a base map that is "good" and definitely close enough for the system to do it's thing.  Subtle variations (like changing mufflers or air cleaners) are also supposed to be within the system's ability to readily compensate.  Dramatic changes require a different base map from which it would then begin its tuning compensation.

In my case, for example, it's Zippers supplied hardware complete (head work, cylinder work, pistons, cams, air cleaner, throttle body and intake).  My bike has true dual head pipes and White Brothers E Series slip ons.  The map they supplied and which Kitzmiller said would "perfectly good to start with" was done on a bike reported to have exactly the same hardware package and a different set of dual exhaust.  With all that similarity and the TMax system's ability to tune on the fly these problems should not be problems.

One of the proposed benefits of the system is, in fact, the money savings from avoiding dyno tunes for the smaller more common changes that are done more regularly (like mufflers, air cleaner, etc), and also being able to avoid those same dyno fees when larger work is done simply by pulling a different base map from the Zipper's library and then letting the system do its work on the bike from there.  At least that's how it's supposed to work.

In my case, however, even with the base map tuned on bike ostensibly nearly identical to my own the bike was fine in the temps we rode in in Kentucky.  10 degrees warmer, however, and it's worrisome.  20 degrees warmer and it's bad.  Come 100 degrees days or more, or high heat and lower humidity, and I could see it quickly becoming unrideable in its current trim.

[Midnight Rider]

Persactly what I was in the process of writing, Don....nobody to tune the TMax, no matter the variation.  You said it better, so I flamed my post.

[Rhino]

Hello All,

I was advised that someone needed some anti-pinging help here with the TMAX, so here goes:

The TMAX is a great device, but like all tuning devices, you need to know how to get where you need to be.  In the manual, it states that you can make changes on the maps, but make sure to save them, so you can go back to where it worked well.  There is a step that needs to be clarified.  In the examples posted here, if you want to make a change, do the following in order, to fix the problems created by LF's. This may be written somewhere, but I don't think so, in English anyway..

Oh yes, do this on a cold bike, best that way.

1. The assumption is that this is a build that has a good Zippers map created.
2. That Zippers created the perfect map for the build if it was an engine by Zippers, or, its a map for parts and pieces or exhaust that match a map that Zippers has.

1.Therefore, if you have made arbitrary map changes along the way ,(and this applies to the Thundermax and any engines and changes)  go back and download the original map that was supplied.
2. Assuming you are clear, and know how to do this, the download will warn, This map will overwrite, do you want to continue? Yes.
3. Go to the basic settings, and make sure your speedo and limiter  and idle is set where you want it, and save this map at this point, under something other than the stock one.  We will be making additional changes.
4. Initialize the map by doing the on and off 3 times, and then unlink from the computer. Leave bike on on the 3rd initialize sequence.
5. OK, now link it back up, and read the module.  Make sure it read showing the original map, and the map you created (this is a double check, but do it. You want to make sure that it 'took'
6. This is important. The Offsets that were learned, I have found, can really confuse everything, so what I will absolutely do, on any change, is make sure of the following:
a. Select Clear Learned Offsets, and do it.  
b. Select Idle Learned Offsets and do it too.

For some reason, becasue it is a computer, I do not want any remnants in the computer that can in any way try and make auto corrections to any points that I previously changed. For example, if the setting I used told the computer to retard timing, and loaded it, everything that I was doing would continually try and make those corrections, and 'learn' what to do when confronted with that change. If I change something else, like fuel AFR, without clearing it out, in my mind, it is possible that the old setting will have the learning curve, and now, with the change, it will try and correct the corrections. I hope I explained this properly, or hope you get the drift anyway. I want to make sure that all of that is gone, period.

Now, you have the original map, and a totally cleared learned offset and idle learn totally cleared out., So naturally, you are going to re-do the IAC.

Now, you start the bike, then activate the link, then activate the auto IAC and wait and monitor until the temp is up to 289. Not 295, or 275, but 289 +- 1 or 2.

Then hit IAC auto to disengage it, and then unlink, then stop bike.

Now you have a fresh, undistorted map.  Is this overkill?  I am not sure.  I know a couple of tricks and things about the TMAX and this workes flawlessly for me.  Now, I also discovered that if you are only just changing exhaust, this is not neccessary at all, but I do it anyway.  Other changes, regarding AFR and Timing, absolutely I do the above. It is no big deal, and always pleasantly surprises me with the result.

So, you go and ride the bike.  The auto tune will learn in the stock setting for learning, very quickly. Just a hop around the neighborhood will be a great tell tale.   See if it is pinging.  If so, make SMALL changes, in the range for example, if you have a little pinging around 2500 to 3000, lower the timing line 1 degree in that range..    See, for this FIRST CHANGE, the learning has already commenced, and you do NOT need to clear anything out.  BUT if you want to make additional changes forward, best to  CLEAR OFFSETS.  Normally, just the cruise offsets, NOT the re do on the Idle offsets.   OK, you make andother change?  Yup, clear em out.  Now, you are saving each time the map, under a new name, after you make each change.

But the key is make sure you clear out the offsets that the computer learned, so each change starts with a new slate.  Any Questions?

Rhino(opinionsarenumerousbutmostofthetimetheyworkwhenisayso)

[Rhino]

Yes, my post abouve was to make sure you clear out the offsets so the computer doesnt get confused. Uh Huh.

Rhino

[Rhino]

And finally, make sure you also check under Closed Loop Module, to make sure the Map and the MODULE says you are in closed loop if you are running the o2 sensors, which I hope you are.  To easy with them, and to tough without, makes it a sert kinda device requiring a dyno if you are runnin naked......

Rhino

[Rhino]

OK, one more, with personal experience.

I have been riding in 90+ temps, and at one point, early on in the 75+F temps, I noticed some pinging. That is what led me to experiment, and finally, discover the issue with the corrections I had saved, without clearing the offsets. After I did that, all was well.  As a matter of fact, the day before yesterday, I did the whole procedure again. Why? Becasue since I had set it the the last time, I had taken off the rockers boxes, changed gaskets, re set pushrods and a few miskalaneous things. I failed to reset, and the bike was pinging just a bit at that pesky 2600 rpm during accel.

So the other night, I re-did it, and now I am once a gain a happy camper.  It is in the manual, just nearly not enough emphasis on clearing out the old learning curves. From now on, it becomes SOP when making a change, whether it be for a:

a. Change In AFR on map
b. Change in Timing
c. Change in Component

I think that is when the TMAT shines, and once it sets up for the current scenario it is a real powerhouse, doing exactly what it is supposed to do with the tools it has to work with, the temps, and the density altitudes.  The only thing we cannot control is the fuel quality.

So here is actualy one hypothesis that I have not yet tried. But it does kind of make sense.  Get a crap load of fuel anywhere? Well, that is a hard one to plan on. So, what if one was to run the tank down, and then get a gallon of mid grade. like 89 octane?  Then do all of the above in my previous post, and now, if you get good fuel it runs well, and also compensates for that occasional crap load that I am seeing more and more, especially hearing more ethanol stories coming out of the midwest.  So what about this?  I think until it is tried, no one can rebuke my thinking, because I said so.

Rhino(alwaysthinkingabouthewrongsubjectswhenishouldbeworking)