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[Unbalanced]

Talon,

I would go with the SERT, because of the following reasons, one you arent lying to the ecm, you aren't piggy backing the system, there are no downloads / flashes for the 110's so that if you got in trouble you could ride it home without worrying about blowing it up.

The SERT has a deleanment table and the accelerator pump and does the rev extend without an extra purchase.   It has the ability to keep you in closed loop mode if you want it or to abandon it wihtout using an external pice of hardware to eliminate the narrow bands.

Personally I have had problems on 2 occasions and it just isn't worth it to me, but that is also because I have good tuners in my area.  There are others that have just the opposite opinion or dont have a good sert tuner nearby that they have had no issues with the PC.   

It's not the tuner though that I have no confidence in its the hardware despite they sell so many, it's still a weak link and I need no additional possibilities to cause me to break down. 

[ultrafxr]

Talon,

I would go with the SERT, because of the following reasons, one you arent lying to the ecm, you aren't piggy backing the system, there are no downloads / flashes for the 110's so that if you got in trouble you could ride it home without worrying about blowing it up.

The SERT has a deleanment table and the accelerator pump and does the rev extend without an extra purchase.   It has the ability to keep you in closed loop mode if you want it or to abandon it wihtout using an external pice of hardware to eliminate the narrow bands.

Personally I have had problems on 2 occasions and it just isn't worth it to me, but that is also because I have good tuners in my area.  There are others that have just the opposite opinion or dont have a good sert tuner nearby that they have had no issues with the PC.   

It's not the tuner though that I have no confidence in its the hardware despite they sell so many, it's still a weak link and I need no additional possibilities to cause me to break down. 

Ain't it the truth.  They do a pretty good job of breaking down on their own without help from any add-ons.

[RDJ ROADKING]

Hello RDJ,

Welcome to this site.  Regarding your TMAX, it can be tuned, but you have to remember some basics.  First, Zippers has created a lot of maps for a variety of combinations for you. What this does, is tells the Thundermax to do whatever neccessary to make your bike FOLLOW the fuel ratios, timing etc, that the map is set for. This is the automatic part. If you tell the bike to run 13.5 AFR, it will, perfectly.

But a question for you first, do the 2/1 fatcats have the 02 sensor bung, and are you running the 02 sensors, and, are you running in either open or closed loop??

A common misunderstanding is that the TMAX is fully automatic, meaning take any ol bike, and with any combination, just hook it up and it will run great. Well, this is not the case, but for some reason, some think it works this way. Simply, the pre-created maps are very close to what you bike likes, and then the TMAX automatically adjusts conditions so the map and bike work in harmony. But, you really need to have some type of a BASE map.  Now, with your combination, there is not a pre created map, and Zippers recommended map as you said is # 275.  Let me take a look.  The 275 map is for the following:  HCRESJSGEF010307.slk   and kind of matches, with the exception of the cam you are running, the 37G.  So, right away, the cam profile is very different than the stock that this map was designed for. So, you have to compensate for that. a little.  The map choices in this 95" instance are either harley 203, redshift 557, or stock.  The idea is to get as close as possible to the configuration you have #1, and then make minor adjustments to AFR and timing #2. 


I personally think you have retarded timing far enough. I also think you need to increase your target AFR to 13.0 if not already, and also, if closed loop, richen up a bit  at the top end throttle degrees from 2500rpm up. But first, let's simply see what you have, so....

Rather than guess at the answer from my question, I await your response, and will go from there.

Rhino


Thanks Rhino for the suggestion's  here is what im going to try tomarrow, i'm using map #275 i am setting the 1st to the 11th block @ 13.021, 12 block @ 12.674 ,13 @12.384 ,14 to 23rd block @12.037 ,24th block @12.153, 25th@12.269, 26th@12.384, 27th@ 12.500, 28th@12.558,29th@12.674,30th@12.790.31st@12.905 ,and 32nd @13.021 also i'm going to put the timing the way Randy told me it will be -1 degree for block 9 which is 2,304 rpms, -2 from block 10 thru 14 thats 2,560 rpms to 3,584 rpms and -1 @ 3,840 rpms thats block 15.......is 13.021 close to 13.0 i really doin't no how to read these number's......This is the only way i no how to explain this..as u can see i am using the closed loop ..with the sensors in the fatcats...it run's great it just those pings @ 3000 rpms another thing i see people on here have a hard time getting reply's to there emails to zipper's i have emailed them like 3 times and it never takes more then 24 hours for them to respond 2 times from a Randy Dull and 1 from Andy.......Rhino thanks again for taking the time, I believe that this will work i already no it helped with the starting when turning it off for like a minute or 2 then starting.  Right no i'm getting in the high 40's for miles per gallon

[RDJ ROADKING]

Hey Bro........and welcome to CVO Harley!!  I'm a second time PCIIIUSB owner.  I've run a SERT before, and after dealing with that, the PC is much easier.  Remember, the SERT's second middle name is RACE.........and it's map, like the PC is a spreadsheet...........but each cell has to be tuned individuallly.........and that takes time........and unless you're racing.......it isn't worth it.  Stick with the PC.  It's good, its fast, and in the hands of a competent tuner, there isn't much better than a PC.  Again, welcome aboard!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm sure the Pc would of worked for me if i could of found a competent tuner when i had the build done i had it tuned they only tuned it to 3,500 rpms till i had it broke in that was $180.00 he could"nt get the pinging out @ 3000 rpms but i doint no how hard he tried. Ok after i had like 1,200 miles on it i took it to a different place about 2 hours from me that was $300.00 i was there he worked on it for 4 hours counting cool off times when i rode it home i stopped and got gas holly crap i thought it was going to blow up i called him from gas station he tell's me he could'nt get the pinging out @ 3000 rpms same as the other guy told me when i got home i drained the gas and got some more took it for a ride it wasn't even close as bad as it was so the gas must of been bad but i still got about 3 rattles @ 3000 rpms he try's to get me to buy the sert but would not garantee he could get it out..So this is the reason i went with the Tmax i was into the pc for $287.00 the 2 tunes for 480.00 iwas done with it....... The Tmax did help with my hot starts that was a big plus i'm sure i will get this all worked out  i thought when i got this system it was a plug and play program ....also i have 2 exhaust systems i want to use i also have the Rinehart true duall's and fatcats 2 into 1

[Rhino]

Keep us posted on the result. You know yu could leave the laptop in the back, and run the monitoring mode and save it as a file. Capture a 5 mile run, try to get through the rpm ranges and at least 4th gear.  Then, you could email it to me and I can pretty much see whats going on to tweak it for you.  Look in the book to see how to save the run, and then email it.

Rhino

[Twolanerider]

Some new information to on the red bike.  Yesterday morning the bike went to a SERT tuner with a good reputation and lots of experience in Kansas City.  After speaking with him I'm comfortable with his skills. 

To quickly summarize the engine in the red bike is a stock bottom end topped off with those components from Zippers that constitute their "103 Muscle Kit."  In other words the "package" is just that, a package designed and intended to work together and run successfully in combination.  Along with the "kit" was Zippers' Thundermax ECM with the autotuning addition.

In cool weather the bike ran fan.  For comparison's sake the dyno numbers on it were even better than expected reporting at 119/119 with plenty of it in the driving range.  The combination didn't work in warmer weather though.  "Warmer" being anything much above 80 degrees F.

Not knowing whether the problem was hardware or software (tuning) tuning was the easiest thing to try first.  Spent a lot of time going through all the obvious steps myself.  Nothing ever really defeated the detonation issues presenting in the motor.  Detonation issues bad enough that the bike was not safe to ride on hot days without worrying about damage.

After a few weeks of generally well informed self-effort attempts were made to get support from the supplier; Zippers.  Initially there wasn't any response.  That dragged on for about a month.  That lack of response had been part of dealing with company previously.  So it was not completely unexpected.  After this 3 1/2 to 4 week stretch efforts were made here to get a response from them.  Finally after being either annoying or obnoxious enough to force a response from them some efforts were made.

I was told it was a tuning problem.  I was told it could be corrected.  Attempts at correction didn't help it.  I was told we'd have to go through a potentially long series of "surgical" steps to further define the problem.

This was all responding to an engine top end rebuild that was done with very specific instructions being given that I wanted only to make most efficient use of what was there to begin with.  Nothing radical, nothing extreme, don't want to fight any driveability issues, nothing that would impact on overall reliability, just want to be able to get on it and ride, no need for compression releases, etc etc etc.  All those things were discussed more than once.  IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE A "BIG" MOTOR WITH TUNING ISSUES OF ANY KIND.  The goal was just to make what was there to begin with a little better.  That's it.

On top of that hardware build the autotuning Thundermax was promised as being able to tune itself (within a relatively wide range).  The system would be able to dial itself in to its own environment and adjust for some level of hardware changes made later.



(continued)

[Twolanerider]

The pace of the support efforts pushed up against what was then a travel deadline.  It was all too likely that any continued remote tuning efforts could not guarantee being successful prior to departure.  The autotuning system simply wasn't able to compensate for the environment it was working in.  Since initial support efforts had taken so long to acquire any support effort now was pushing the travel deadline.

At this point I offered what seemed a very fair Plan B.  To meet the travel deadline I'd get the bike retuned with a SERT or Power Commander on my own.  This would relieve any time pressure working with the Thundermax and other Zippers parts.  I offered to then simply let them have the bike to prove its tune sometime later this summer.  If it would all work together as they'd promised this was the simple, easy and effective way to make it so.  It would also probably take less company man hours doing one tune than in working back and forth the several steps they'd have me work through trying to diagnose and retune remotely via their instruction and my efforts.

To this there was simply no response.  As fair as allowing them the opportunity to make good on their product promises might seem they simply didn't respond.  Might have been an error in communication.  So asked again.  The silence had once again become deafening.

The bike was tuned yesterday.  All blame does not rest with the Thundermax after all.  Granted, it does not adjust across a wide enough range to make this bike rideable (promises to the contrary notwithstanding).  But that's at least partly because the hardware combination also does not work well together.

The bike is now rideable.  It goes down the road without pinging on a 90 degree day.  I found that out when it got home last night.  To say, however, that it runs ok is not to say that it runs as it should.

The bike had the 575 cams in before the work that installed the "103 Muscle Kit."  A competent tuner, who voiced significant complaint about the "picky, kwerky" cams he was tuning spent about 7 hours time making the bike rideable.  In so doing he had to dial it down to a point where its output is now significantly less than it was with just the 575 cams.  In fact it nearly mirrors what it was when it was just a bone stock 103 that had had air cleaner and pipes done.

So a nearly 20% hit to make it rideable.  It is at least safely rideable now.  Compared to an 88" it runs good.  Compared to what it should be it's pretty sorry.  One might ask why all the extra expense and time were done to have Zippers rebuild the heads to their own specs, supply a throttle body and intake, supply pistons and new cams and supply a new ignition system that would in the end only make the bike run worse than it did to begin with?  I might ask that too.  But Zippers doesn't really answer a lot of questions.

At least the machine is rideable now.  That is a lot better than nothing.  Figuring out how to correct this particular significant mistake on my part will likely be a winter project.  I am relatively sure there is one source I'll not be working with for support and information.  Zippers doesn't really answer a lot of questions.

[Rhino]

Hello TL,

I read your post a few times to make sure I was understanding it. I did pick a few things and posted them below.  This now has be quite bewildered.
1. The hardware combination was put together after hundreds of testing hours. It works fine on literally hundreds of bikes.
2. You said it does not adjust over a wide enough range, however we get back to the automation part. It DOES adjust against the AFR's and timing exactly as it was set. I am a little fuzzy with that comment because it requires the proper base map to begin with.
3. It will dial in its own environment from high to low temps, and high and low altitudes. I think again, that the map you were using needs to be looked at to make sure it was not inadvertently changed. This has happened, and it requires a simple fix on the original map. Sometimes a save is made, without renaming. If that happens, the original paramenter will be distorted.

So, there were two things that needed to be done. One, was to make sure you erased the original map from the database completely, and then internet connect back to Zippers and re-download that original map that is recommended.
The next easiest thing was to hook up the laptop, and select monitoring. And then ride a few miles recording over a variety of ranges, specifically the areas where pinging. This does constitute some work on your part, but then, you could email that saved monitored map, and changes could easily be done from there.  A modified map, if required, would be sent back email with a special moniker, along with the base map, and you could load it back in.  To do this, you need to open the Thunder software, and load it in from the email attachment.

In any event, sorry you have had so much trouble and lack of response from Zippers.  Knowing they are sometimes hard to get in touch with, I have had to self learn most of it.  I did get the background software which definately help analyze most any issue.  If you have a monitoring file, go ahead and send it my way and I will take a look.

planeseller@bellsouth.net

Rhino

"Granted, it does not adjust across a wide enough range to make this bike rideable (promises to the contrary notwithstanding).  But that's at least partly because the hardware combination also does not work well together.
On top of that hardware build the autotuning Thundermax was promised as being able to tune itself (within a relatively wide range).  The system would be able to dial itself in to its own environment and adjust for some level of hardware changes made later.
The autotuning system simply wasn't able to compensate for the environment it was working in.  "

[Eqcons]

Well, I got my bike delivered home yesterday.  Wanted it here rather than at the dealers while we wait for the new motor.  I guess we won't ever find out what the problem was, as the dealers won't strip it.  I really wish I had a little fibre endoscope to shove in the plug hole though!

Connected my laptop up to the TMAT, to look at the "warranty data" - wanted to see what the head temp had got up to.  As before, there are plainly meaningless corrupt figures in the rev chart.  It seems to think I've run for nearly 46 years at 4800 rpm.    Also, when you save the log to a file, it fails to save the head temps, so I did a screen dump for both sets of figures, and here they are for the delectation of you fine gents:

[Eqcons]

Now I think those are WAY too hot - but of course I don't know how reliable the figures are.....  Most of the high temps would be in start/stop traffic.

And the rev chart:

[Eqcons]

I should also point out that despite running for 46 years, the engine has never been near the rev limit, although the chart claims it has!

Jim

[Twolanerider]

Rhino, you've gone out of your way to offer a lot of advice.  Things like:

Maybe you should stick to computers.

and everyone elses ultimately runs well after a tweak if at all, yours is a sticky point.

And I have taken it upon myself to be a samaritan for the company,


That is overstated, dont you have AARP?

I think you should be happy they are even talking with you at all. You and your little group of followers having the same type of problem, well, that don't compute either.

DuH!

You talk to much and spew big words,

Hope you took pictures.

Now once again we're concerned with:

1. The hardware combination was put together after hundreds of testing hours. It works fine on literally hundreds of bikes.

2. You said it does not adjust over a wide enough range, however we get back to the automation part. It DOES adjust against the AFR's and timing exactly as it was set. I am a little fuzzy with that comment because it requires the proper base map to begin with.

3. It will dial in its own environment from high to low temps, and high and low altitudes. I think again, that the map you were using needs to be looked at to make sure it was not inadvertently changed.

So, there were two things that needed to be done.

Re: your comment on the map.  Honest to god man.  The right freaking map was loaded.  The data links were functional.  Live data was witnessed.  Installation was good.  Assume me to be an idiot if you must.  But quit calling me an idiot to my face.  It gets old.  I won't insinuate you're an insecure schmuck overly worried about some third party company so for some reason you'll continue feeling good about your own stuff if you'll quit suggesting I'm an air headed blonde that can't shift straight or load a damned computer file.

Not not only was it loaded, verified, and reloaded and reverified more than once initially.  Fitzmaurice sent the revised map that was loaded in isolation from the larger library.  Fitzmaurice was satisfied it was the right map.  That should be good enough.

1) The hardware combination may or may not have hundreds of hours of testing and support behind it.  Doesn't matter and I don't care.  I wasn't there and I don't know (were you?).  Simple fact is in this installation it is a problem.  It wouldn't run correctly when operated by the Thundermax.  That the thundermax couldn't get even to a basically rideable state still means the Thundermax couldn't get it running.  A pretty good SERT tuning effort with the stock ECM reinstalled does a good job of finishing isolating hardware questions from software questions.  With either ignition system the engine has issues.  Real issues.  The SERT tuner's efforts could do a better job of massaging and managing those issues than could the Thundermax.  Apparently man is better than machine.  The issues are there nonetheless.

Now, before you ask, yes, neither piston is installed upside down.  The heads are oriented correctly.  The cams were in fact installed correctly, etc etc etc.  The tuner who spent several hours on the dyno with it yesterday said it behaved like a cam far more radical than it is supposed to be generating cylinder pressures greater than should be expected.  Since that description comes from hands on experience and jives with how the bike has behaved for me I can't and don't discount it. 

I do not know for certain what the problem is.  I know there is a problem.  I know the problem is isolated from the ignition system (because I've paid to find out and confirm that fact).  That only leaves the hardware package.  Your love for Zippers notwithstanding they were difficult to work with in my experience.  Even early on.

As for your "samaritan" status with them; I was a moderator when they were setup as a vendor here.  I made the contact with Kitzmiller to get him that status and had several conversations with him at that time.  At the time Kitzmiller was worried about one thing more than any other.  There were "samaritans" here who felt like they just had to assist the company. 

It was help they didn't really need or appreciate and certainly didn't sanction.  So you'll have to forgive me if when my questions and issues are with the company that took my money I choose to be to some degree less concerned with a civilian to the effort who thinks the company isn't robust enough to choose their own path.  But, then again, I only talk too much and spew big words supported by the intellect to be destined for the AARP.  With samaritans treating consumers like that the company needs even more help then I think it does.

[Twolanerider]

I should also point out that despite running for 46 years, the engine has never been near the rev limit, although the chart claims it has!

Jim

Jim, despite where all that logging is done you should be comforted by one thing.  It absolutely positively wasn't a problem with any components supplied by Zippers.  Or if they did play any part in it at all it was due to their installation or the computer you used to load the file or read the data. 

Jim, all the nonsense aside, has the company or the dealership given you any idea how long you'll be down this time?


Good luck,
Don

[Rhino]

Ya know there Donny, I think you just don't really get it. No matter how much you blather on, and how much you think people are picking on you, not once did you ever respond with a result to me, on any of the readings I had been requesting. Just even now, you remarks are very strange. You would rather make note of all the chit, rather than approach the problem. Your highlights are very entertaining but really off point.  Your most recent quote cut off the important part.  Same as always, you you you.

My request apparently was completed regarding a potential corrupted map, so, I'll give you that one.

"Not not only was it loaded, verified, and reloaded and reverified more than once initially. Fitzmaurice sent the revised map that was loaded in isolation from the larger library.  Fitzmaurice was satisfied it was the right map.  That should be good enough."

But clearly it's not good enough now, is it? Everything is not just B & W.

"The next easiest thing was to hook up the laptop, and select monitoring. And then ride a few miles recording over a variety of ranges, specifically the areas where pinging. This does constitute some work on your part, but then, you could email that saved monitored map, and changes could easily be done from there.  A modified map, if required, would be sent back email with a special moniker, along with the base map, and you could load it back in.  To do this, you need to open the Thunder software, and load it in from the email attachment."

But you never did this with me, or Zippers.  And on earlier requests, you always seemed to have some excuse of being too busy. So when you get your priorities figured out, and really want to get a good running bike, follow some advice rather than dishing your chit out all over the place.  And find a good tuner, which clearly, your post says you did not find, because you now have sacrificed torque and HP. 

"Re: your comment on the map.  Honest to god man.  The right freaking map was loaded.  The data links were functional.  Live data was witnessed."

Again, you noted; live data was witnessed. WTF is that supposed to mean. Did it get into the right hands, I mean Zippers never saw it, so what does that mean. 

And as far as a relationship with a variety of manufacturers and vendors, I like it. I learn, I learn some more.  If I like a product, and find it is beneficial, I give advice, and recommendations.  So, why the F*#@k am I telling you this. Must be because of all my insecurities you ass.

You may be the wonderboy of computers and Harleys, and eloquent letter writing skills, but what can I say, you still ain't got it right and you are still fighting everyone and everything with words that are not covering the point of it all.  As others have, I finally give up on not so nice of a note.

Rhino

[jfh]

Now, before you ask, yes, neither piston is installed upside down.  The heads are oriented correctly.  The cams were in fact installed correctly, etc etc etc.  The tuner who spent several hours on the dyno with it yesterday said it behaved like a cam far more radical than it is supposed to be generating cylinder pressures greater than should be expected.   Since that description comes from hands on experience and jives with how the bike has behaved for me I can't and don't discount it. 

Don,
Did your SERT tuner measure your static cranking pressure, and if so, what was the result? Your symptoms sounded like they could have been attributed to high static compression pressures, but one could not rule out tuning until your recent change to SERT.  My next step would be to check cam timing.  An intake cam installed with too much advance will decrease duration and cause increased static pressures leading to detonation issues.  The higher pressures also explain your earlier 119/119 performance numbers.  If cam timing is ruled out, compression related hardware (pistons, deck height, combustion chamber size, cam measurements, etc...) will be the next logical diagnostic step. Unfortunately that will require a top end tear down, and as you mentioned is best left for the winter.  Good luck with it.