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[hogasm]

Just heard that the 08's will go back to the M & M's with fly by wire.

Anyone else heard this?

[Ironhorse]

Just heard that the 08's will go back to the M & M's with fly by wire.

Anyone else heard this?

Pardon my ignorance, but what does "fly by wire" mean?
I am assuming the "M&M" means dual runner like the Magnetti-Marelli TBs.

[grc]

Fly-by-wire means no direct mechanical link between the throttle grip and the throttle body.  Throttle actuation is done electrically. 

Jerry

[Shovelhead Bob]

Doubtful about the "Fly By Wire" set-up... Housings are already cramped without adding a rheostat sensor, let alone an actuator on the TB unit.... Guess we will find out in a week or so when the 08's are released....

As far as the Magnetti Marelli induction module units, that is what is on your bike right now.... Harley never left them, they only changed the ECM to a Delphi.... The single plenum runner is a good all around performer, but the Dual Plenum is great for High Performance applications...

[StreetDog]

The " Fly by Wire" will happen.....enjoy.

[Ironhorse]

So what is the advantage of a fly by wire system? I would think that fewer things can go wrong with cables.

[grc]

So what is the advantage of a fly by wire system? I would think that fewer things can go wrong with cables.

Not sure how H-D plans to implement this "drive-by-wire" system, but in the automotive arena it allows the ECM to make "corrections" to driver input.  The signal from the throttle pedal / grip goes to the ECM, then the ECM controls the servo motor that actually moves the throttle plate. This can be used to improve emissions performance, perceived driveability, etc.  It also makes implementation of things like cruise control and electronic stability control much simpler and less expensive. 

Jerry

[skippy]

Yes I have also heard of the fly by wire on the 08s

[Ironhorse]

I'm sure it will be well built, but in my small mind it could be another electrical thing that will crap out and leave you stranded by the side of the road. I guess one of the benefits for the MoCo is that their are getting so complicated, that replacment ECMs like Zippers, S&S, and DTT will have to once again re-tool and "crack the code" just to keep up. I can also see how going back to the dual runner will allow more precise tuning of each cylinder if they build it and do it right. I wish they would build a better and longer lasting stator.

[Hoist!]

They can't seem to get their electronics right as it is! That's one MoCo electronic gadget I can do without! Hoist!

[dmnrdn]

They can't seem to get their electronics right as it is! That's one MoCo electronic gadget I can do without! Hoist!

AMEN

[ultrafxr]

They can't seem to get their electronics right as it is! That's one MoCo electronic gadget I can do without! Hoist!

It is kind of like integrated or linked brakes, big brother knows what's best.  Chit I'll decide which brake to apply and I want to be in control of my throttle not some damn microchip.

[Rhino]

I remember the fly by wire when it first came out on the Airbus.  I also remember when that Airbus crashed into trees at an airshow becasue the computer would not take the pilots commands from the yoke.   Well, they did ultimately perfect it, by adding more computers and redundancy.  And I also have a car with fly by wire.  Yes, when I want to honk on it, it is restricted if the road is slick, or it senses a skid. Yup, just what I wanted on a motorcycle. Lookout!!

Rhino

[Ironhorse]

I remember the fly by wire when it first came out on the Airbus.  I also remember when that Airbus crashed into trees at an airshow becasue the computer would not take the pilots commands from the yoke.   Well, they did ultimately perfect it, by adding more computers and redundancy.  And I also have a car with fly by wire.  Yes, when I want to honk on it, it is restricted if the road is slick, or it senses a skid. Yup, just what I wanted on a motorcycle. Lookout!!

Rhino

I remember reading about the AirBus crashes. I always thought it was operator error, not the ECM failing to take the pilots input. I can see how that could become a real pain. It's the dumbing down of motorcycling. They don't trust the rider to do anything except pick the color of the bike.

[hogasm]

My 97 E-350 Ford van with a 7.3l diesel has fly by wire. Remember everyone saying that it will never work. After 516,000 miles it still works fine.
It will be hard to believe that as slow as Harley is on new things that they would have traction control attached to their computer.

Mercury Marine, on their Verado 4 stroke outboard motors have fly by wire. It is the smoothest throttle control in the marine industry. Mercury's computer is a very simple one. Reminds me of the original ford and chevy computers from the late 80's and early 90's.

[grc]

hogasm,

If I remember correctly, drive-by-wire (throttle control) has been around on cars since the very late '80's.  I think BMW had it first, back in '88 or '89.  Initially there was no financial benefit, so it only showed up on more expensive vehicles where the cost could be buried more easily.  As computers and electronics became smaller, less expensive, and more reliable, these types of controls became available on a broader selection of vehicles.  Now we have drive-by-wire braking and steering, in addition to throttle control.  One of the vehicles my employer produces even has the ability to sense an impending collision, reduce throttle, and even apply the brakes with no input from the driver.  

My issue with all of this on a Harley is twofold.  1.) I enjoy riding bikes because the experience is direct and immediate, unlike the typical modern automobile which has had all the fun (and skill requirements) removed.  I know how to apply throttle properly depending on conditions (let's see, how about WOT immediately after starting the bike, or during a rainstorm - duh!), as well as proper braking technique, and would prefer to handle those things myself.  2.) My experience with H-D indicates that they cannot be trusted to properly implement new (to them only, old hat to the rest of the world) technology without screwing it up.  Their p-poor EFI implementation damn near got me killed shortly after buying my SEEG; I'm quite sure I don't want to give them another shot at me using drive-by-wire.

Jerry

[Rhino]

So I heard not only will some models have the fly by wire, but all of them will have a new, totally different non interchangable ECM too.
Rhino

[Ironhorse]

So I heard not only will some models have the fly by wire, but all of them will have a new, totally different non interchangable ECM too.
Rhino

And so it continues.

[grc]

So I heard not only will some models have the fly by wire, but all of them will have a new, totally different non interchangable ECM too.
Rhino

The two go together, drive-by-wire requires either a separate electronic controller or a new ECM to process the input from the throttle grip sensor and whatever other sensors they wish to monitor such as temp, and then provide an output signal to the throttle actuator.  A new ECM would be the less expensive and most logical solution.  Non-interchangeable is something I'll have to see personally to believe, since I've never seen anything yet that can't be replicated or defeated by the aftermarket.  For instance, the ECM's on the '05's were supposed to set codes if you added a tuning device like a TFI or PC.  It took those folks no time at all to come up with "stealth" models of their equipment so the ECM wouldn't be able to detect them. 

Jerry

[theslash]

makes my 06 ucse worth more money
after the problems start.   

[hogasm]

hogasm,

If I remember correctly, drive-by-wire (throttle control) has been around on cars since the very late '80's.  I think BMW had it first, back in '88 or '89.  Initially there was no financial benefit, so it only showed up on more expensive vehicles where the cost could be buried more easily.  As computers and electronics became smaller, less expensive, and more reliable, these types of controls became available on a broader selection of vehicles.  Now we have drive-by-wire braking and steering, in addition to throttle control.  One of the vehicles my employer produces even has the ability to sense an impending collision, reduce throttle, and even apply the brakes with no input from the driver. 

My issue with all of this on a Harley is twofold.  1.) I enjoy riding bikes because the experience is direct and immediate, unlike the typical modern automobile which has had all the fun (and skill requirements) removed.  I know how to apply throttle properly depending on conditions (let's see, how about WOT immediately after starting the bike, or during a rainstorm - duh!), as well as proper braking technique, and would prefer to handle those things myself.  2.) My experience with H-D indicates that they cannot be trusted to properly implement new (to them only, old hat to the rest of the world) technology without screwing it up.  Their p-poor EFI implementation damn near got me killed shortly after buying my SEEG; I'm quite sure I don't want to give them another shot at me using drive-by-wire.

Jerry

I wonder if this is Harley's way of meeting EPA standards for 2008 or a way of keeping the aftermarket guys out of the picture for awhile?

It scares me that the ECM would have more control of my scoot than I would. If it would have the control like the vehicle that you mentioned then when the ECM takes control then you are left helpless as to what avasive action you can do in any situation.