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[Scorpio]

I have a friend trying to talk me into using the Thundermax over the SERT, he seems to think the T-max is the better option.
I have always used the SERT without any concerns.
This will be going on a 09 CVO ultra with 2" fullsac (cc removed), se air beather
Any thoughts on Thundermax ?

[guppytrash]

It sure would be nice to have a thundermax and not need to dyno tune with every change to the bike.  I have the SERT because the thundermax was not available and I have no patience. 
The most obvious benefit of the SERT is that every HD dealership can work on it.  Both are supposedly going to void your warranty, with reference to that if HD ever refuses to honor a warranty for my bike because of their SERT tuned by one of their dealerships it will be the last HD I own. 
I hope you get some responses from thundermax owners...I am interested in the reviews.

[SBB]

IMHO I would rather try to tune my 09 SEUC with a 8lb. sledge hammer and a crowbar than use a Thundermax.
Now that I have thought about it, that opinion also applies to the 01 SERG, 03 Classic and the 05 SEEG!

My 01 SERG uses a Power Commander, the 03 Classic uses a SERT, the 05 SEEG uses a SERT and the 09 SEUC uses the SSERT.

SBB

[guppytrash]

IMHO I would rather try to tune my 09 SEUC with a 8lb. sledge hammer and a crowbar than use a Thundermax.
Now that I have thought about it, that opinion also applies to the 01 SERG, 03 Classic and the 05 SEEG!

My 01 SERG uses a Power Commander, the 03 Classic uses a SERT, the 05 SEEG uses a SERT and the 09 SEUC uses the SSERT.

SBB

Is there a bad experience with a thundermax?  Whats the story Silver-Black?  Inquiring minds want to know.  This is a WHOLE LOT of OPINION...without giving us the scoop. 

[sadunbar]

IMHO I would rather try to tune my 09 SEUC with a 8lb. sledge hammer and a crowbar than use a Thundermax.Now that I have thought about it, that opinion also applies to the 01 SERG, 03 Classic and the 05 SEEG!

My 01 SERG uses a Power Commander, the 03 Classic uses a SERT, the 05 SEEG uses a SERT and the 09 SEUC uses the SSERT.

SBB

I would rather be beat about the head with an 8lb. sledge hammer and a crowbar than use a Thundermax - again.  The first experience was painful enough...  

Lousy mileage - deteriorating performance as the device "tuned itself" - less than zero customer support from Zippers...  Worst supplier I ever attempted to work with - ever - bar none!   

[SBB]

Is there a bad experience with a thundermax?  Whats the story Silver-Black?  Inquiring minds want to know.  This is a WHOLE LOT of OPINION...without giving us the scoop. 

Gup!

Read the info in this thread.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=14269.0

You want scoop, read all 22 pages and tell me a Thundermax is an option!

SBB

[Deuce Bigelow]

I don't really have that bad of an experience with the T-Max, aside from the fact that it seemed like the longer I ran it, it would autotune itself out of a good tune... it's hard to explain it any other way.
Zippers was always good to work with when I had a question or problem.

My biggest problem or querk with it was that it would pop or spit out the intake if you cracked the throttle too fast, it didn't do it everytime but it almost always seemed to do it at the worst times... and the bike would sometimes stall after it happened.

Zippers answer to this was "don't blip the throttle like that", because it's an Alpha N system, it uses throttle position, and when you crack the throttle open that fast it kind of confuses the ECM.
well, that's not the answer I wanted to hear........

I went with the TTS Mastertune and I can say that my bike is running better than it ever did with the T-max installed!
and I haven't even did the Vtune yet!
and best thing is ... no more popping or spitting out of the intake!   

[eddfive]

I want to first say that I have not played with the ThunderMax software.  The Master Tuner that trained me told me it was very cumbersome.  All I know is that I pulled (4) T-Max's off last summer as they started runing too rich in the Texas summer heat.  I re-tuned with SERT and DIRECT LINK and all these customers have reported better performance, driveability and gas mileage.  I have been getting a few calls this winter to put T-Max bikes on the dyno and adjust timing because of pinging.  I guess I will eventually bite the bullet and learn the system.

[boerne free bird]

I'm obviously in the minority, but my recent experience with ThunderMax has been very good. The bike is running strong, the self-tune learning is working as it should, and the fuel mileage is gradually improving. Their technical support has been responsive with timely answers to my questions.

If you go with ThunderMax, it is very worthwhile to print the 130+ page manual from pdf format and spend some time getting confortable with it. I gave my tuner the option of tuning with ThunderMax, a new SERT, or a PowerCommander and he opted to stick with the ThunderMax because it was already installed. If I were starting from a clean slate, he would have recommended the SERT, but he did not think it was wise to remove it and start over.

Once you get the bike running properly, you can significantly restrict the amount of new self-tune learning permitted or go to open loop operation.

[wichitagreg]

I had a t-max on my 07 Ultra.

Cons:
Had to install wide-band 02 sensors, with an oil cooler, meant I had to remove front header.
Cost.  Expensive at $700 or so.
Auto-Tune is not Auto.  You still have to pick the right map, and tweak it.  Then the 02 Sensors will tune to that map.  It's not a replacement for a good human tuner.
Replaces stoock ECM.  Dealer KNOWS you have it.  If necessary on the road, a dealer cannopt just reflash your ecm.
I have heard, no personal experience, that the T-Max can be damaged by water, such as washing your bike with the side covers off.

Pro's
I found the software easy to use.
Lots of canned maps
Good tech support


I put a TTS Mastertune on my 09, and won't look back.
But I must say, I dynoed my bike (103 Stage II) with just the dealer download into a stock ECM, and again after putting on the Mastertune and SE II pipes and V-Tuning, and there was no improvement.

79HP and 97TQ.

[Scorpio]

Sounds like the SSERT is the way to go, I don't want to find time to read a 130+ pg. manual so that I can ride and I'm pretty sure I don't own a 30lb sledge hammer.
 Thanks for the insight!

[Unbalanced]

MasterTune then SSERT, then PowerCommander.   That is the order I would choose the products.

Reason being SERT was originally done by Mastertune.  The program works and has additional features original sert didnt and on the 09's the bike can help you tune it yourself if you are inclined enough to do so.  Handles fly by wire and much more.   One added benefit is that the Stock ecm doesnt know it is there from what we are told.

SSERT, still a harley product.  ECM knows its been there.

PowerCommander I hear was just released for the 09's.   ECM knows its been there.   offers more tuning centers problem is finding a good one like John Golden or Road Hawg here in Florida or Speeds Performance Plus.   I know there are others, but these come to mind quickly.

[sportygordy]

I'm having extremely good luck with MasterTune, DTT's Wide Band Sensors and DTT's Twin Scan for data logging in my 131 with an open loop map. A little more cumbersome then AutoTune but probably the next best thing. I am a little tempted to try Thundermax for TBW models but i think this forum helped me decide against it. Besides, (con) $800 is getting harder to come by now days. 

[boerne free bird]

Over the last couple of days I read through the linked thread again and really enjoyed revisiting this classic piece of internet literature. Through all of the documented pain, suffering and general aggravation, there was some value was returned through this journal.

Twolane, after the smoke cleared, what did it take to sort out your drivability/performance issues? Is there a link to the rest of the story?

djkak

This noob also just finished that thread and was wondering exactly the say thing
Thanks

[jfh]

My personal experience with Zipper's products including the T-Max differ significantly from the threads referenced above.  I've been using a T-Max w/Auto-tune on my 2007 FLHTC w/Zipper's built 120" for over two years without any issues.  I live nearby Zipper's, have developed a personal relationship with management over the past twelve years, and have always received excellent customer service and support.

[djkak]

Oh boy, found it…oops…sorry…never mind.

djkak

[brwk]

Tried a Tmax on my old 04 103 bagger and had similar performance, much lower gas mileage, and it pinged.  After 3 months of going back and forth to Zippers I gave it back.  After the first time talking to Zippers the conversations got increasing worse to the point where I classify Zippers customer service as not existent.  They gave me an attitude and I just wanted them to get it working as advertised.  I will never buy anything from Zippers again.  They made me feel like I did something wrong and they even installed it.  It appears that once Zippers doesnt have an answer they get their tude going.   

[SBB]

Tried a Tmax on my old 04 103 bagger and had similar performance, much lower gas mileage, and it pinged.  After 3 months of going back and forth to Zippers I gave it back.  After the first time talking to Zippers the conversations got increasing worse to the point where I classify Zippers customer service as not existent.  They gave me an attitude and I just wanted them to get it working as advertised.  I will never buy anything from Zippers again.  They made me feel like I did something wrong and they even installed it.  It appears that once Zippers doesnt have an answer they get their tude going.   

Imagine that?

[Hoist!]

Tried a Tmax on my old 04 103 bagger and had similar performance, much lower gas mileage, and it pinged.  After 3 months of going back and forth to Zippers I gave it back.  After the first time talking to Zippers the conversations got increasing worse to the point where I classify Zippers customer service as not existent.  They gave me an attitude and I just wanted them to get it working as advertised.  I will never buy anything from Zippers again.  They made me feel like I did something wrong and they even installed it.  It appears that once Zippers doesnt have an answer they get their tude going.   

Unfortunately a very common story with Zippers. I won't consider any of their stuff for this reason, even though I haven't had to deal with this myself. I know enough people who have, to warrant me doing business elsewhere, where they appreciate your business.

Hoist!

[DCFIREMANN]

I guess I should chime in now. I am one of the first on here running a Thundermax. I would not have anything else. I DO NOT HAVE THE A/T OPTION! I have a new Tmax with A/T but will not use it. Things are getting better with the Tmax and if I purchased a new bike tomorrow would still go that route.

I can tell you most of the products sold by Zippers are good products. I think the Tmax was released too early and is way ahead of it's time.

Now to the nitty gritty. I have been dealing with Zippers for many years. I was on a first name basis with EVERYONE down there. I could walk in the back door and visit with open arms. I did have a problem with them and they had a problem with me. We did get it settled but it was ugly. Would I use their products again? YES! I know what goes on down there and I know they are overwhelmed to say the least. I do have a problem with the Customer Service down there. But again if I had a choice on any tuning software it is going to be Thunder Max.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[boerne free bird]

I continue to get good results from the Thundermax with Autotune on my 103 Cross Bones. The latest software includes two features that are really neat. The first one is a data analysis of the learned data points. You can easily see whether fuel is decreasing or increasing and the magnitude of the changes for each cylinder independently.

The second feature is an automated e-mail feature, which downloads your map data into an e-mail and sends it directly to Tech Service. I've done this twice, and both times resulted in a revised map being sent back to me with a day or so of my e-mail. The performance is fine and my gas mileage has been steadily increasing back toward 40 mpg.

I was considering changing to a SSERT, but I have decided to stay the course on the 103. I'll use the SSERT on the SERG when I begin that process.

[lv2ride56]

Thundermax head and shoulders above the rest. That said you do have to have enough to read and understand the manual along with a convenient computer. Mileage and performance are both very easy to adjust and changes to air cleaners, mufflers, etc. are a piece of cake.
Not to say that a SERT or SSERT can't be made to run very well, if you are lucky enough to have a tuner close by, but you will need to dyno every time you make a change. 2 or 3 Dyno's and you bought a T-max.
Customer service with Zippers has been some of the best I have had from anyone. I think they mnust have learned from earlier threads.
Just my .02 worth.

[wichitagreg]

I had a t-max on my 07 Ultra.

Cons:
Had to install wide-band 02 sensors, with an oil cooler, meant I had to remove front header.
Cost.  Expensive at $700 or so.
Auto-Tune is not Auto.  You still have to pick the right map, and tweak it.  Then the 02 Sensors will tune to that map.  It's not a replacement for a good human tuner.
Replaces stoock ECM.  Dealer KNOWS you have it.  If necessary on the road, a dealer cannopt just reflash your ecm.
I have heard, no personal experience, that the T-Max can be damaged by water, such as washing your bike with the side covers off.

Pro's
I found the software easy to use.
Lots of canned maps
Good tech support


I put a TTS Mastertune on my 09, and won't look back.
But I must say, I dynoed my bike (103 Stage II) with just the dealer download into a stock ECM, and again after putting on the Mastertune and SE II pipes and V-Tuning, and there was no improvement.

79HP and 97TQ.

UPDATE:

I had my bike dyno tuned by edfive (http://www.thedynodifference.com/) and he really got the afr and spark tables cooking.  I went from 97 TQ to 110, and from 79 HP to just over 82.

If I had it to do over, I would just go to edfive and buy his package deal, a Direct Link tuner (http://www.technoresearch.com/Products/Direct-Link/Direct-Link) with Ed's tune, for some number around $500 or $550.

But it doesn't really matter what tuner you get if you have someone who can use it to tune your bike.

Greg
http://www.noller.net/greg

[JMP]

Well I've had the T-Max for about a year and a half. While the guys are freindly at events try getting any help with map selection for any other cam than they have listed (i.e. SS570G) or OMG if you are running HTCC anything. I asked for a recommendation on a tuner in Southeast Florida....they gave me two, one out of business and the other one didn't even had a dyno.
I've read the posts here, if any of y'all know how to get results from T-Max please pass it on.
My build is a 103, HTCC CNC ported, 10.5:1, stock throttle body, SE 2N1 pipe, SE AC, and SS570G cams. I get 32MPG @ 13.89 AFR.
I thought about swapping out to the Red Shift cams...but Zippers support (the lack of) decided that for me.

[sadunbar]

Well I've had the T-Max for about a year and a half. While the guys are freindly at events try getting any help with map selection for any other cam than they have listed (i.e. SS570G) or OMG if you are running HTCC anything. I asked for a recommendation on a tuner in Southeast Florida....they gave me two, one out of business and the other one didn't even had a dyno.
I've read the posts here, if any of y'all know how to get results from T-Max please pass it on.
My build is a 103, HTCC CNC ported, 10.5:1, stock throttle body, SE 2N1 pipe, SE AC, and SS570G cams. I get 32MPG @ 13.89 AFR.
I thought about swapping out to the Red Shift cams...but Zippers support (the lack of) decided that for me.

The happiest day I had with my T-Max was the day I sold it...   

[bisounours]

Well I've had the T-Max for about a year and a half. While the guys are freindly at events try getting any help with map selection for any other cam than they have listed (i.e. SS570G) or OMG if you are running HTCC anything. I asked for a recommendation on a tuner in Southeast Florida....they gave me two, one out of business and the other one didn't even had a dyno.
I've read the posts here, if any of y'all know how to get results from T-Max please pass it on.
My build is a 103, HTCC CNC ported, 10.5:1, stock throttle body, SE 2N1 pipe, SE AC, and SS570G cams. I get 32MPG @ 13.89 AFR.
I thought about swapping out to the Red Shift cams...but Zippers support (the lack of) decided that for me.

Good morning JMP

  on the CVO website 

It would be nice for the other members if you present you in the thread New member introduction
with a pic of your bike 

Best regards

  Jacques

[SCRM-R]

The happiest day I had with my T-Max was the day I sold it...   

Ditto...back to the SERT with a good tune and I'm happy again.

[RickC]

I had a TMAT on my '07 FLTR... for a stock 96", it ran strong. SE A/C and V&H ProPipes (2-into-1) were the only engine mods besides the TMAT.

Yes, it ran richer (because I tuned it that way) and gas mileage was down a bit, but it ran cooler than other TC96's and it had more power (torque).

I have a buddy with an '08 Ultra that put the Knight Rider XIED's on his bike. My wife, my girl and I rode to Huntsville with my budd and his wife one day. He's an electronics geek and brought along his infrared thermometer. As soon as we stopped in Huntsville, he took head temp readings on all three bikes. My wife's stock '07 FLSTC was running the hotest. The '08 Ultra with XIEDs was about 15 degrees cooler. My '07 FLTR with TMAT was running 35 degrees cooler than the '07 FLSTC.

So, in my mind the TMAT is a good solution. It gave me the ability to tune my own bike fairly straightforwardly without a dyno. I found the TMAT software to be no more difficult than the PCIII software.

For my '09 SERG, I've got a TTS Mastertune. The TMAT has two strikes against it for my new bike. (1) It is double the price of the MasterTune; and (2) it is not available for the '09 models yet (last I checked). I look forward to seeing how the MasterTune works.

[Cvostu]

I found the guys at Bike Week very friendly too. I was asked a bunch of questions on how my bike rode, and I didn't have too much too complain about. 1409 out the door and about 3 hours time,so I passed. After reading some of the posts here,I'm glad I did. I am using a PC,air cleaner, and Rinehart TD's. I did look at Rush slip ons for my head pipes. Think they are worth it? Or just leave well enough alone. I'd love a reply to this one. Thanks.