Topic: map or no map? (Read 4190 times)

kb · « **on:** October 30, 2010, 11:42:07 PM »

Yesterday I installed a Stage 1 Screaming air cleaner & 1.75 Fullsac baffles, now I'm the one who is baffled.Everywhere I read that an ECM calibration must be done. I rode about 40 miles after the install. There is a definite improvement in acceleration. The bike runs fine at all rpm's no backfire,popping or other noises. Is it really necessary to have it remapped? What are the con's of notrecalibrating? I would much rather ask a stupid question than make a stupid mistake. Thanks kb

hd-dude · « **Reply #1 on:** October 30, 2010, 11:54:59 PM »

These bikes run really lean in The stock configuration. By adding a free flowing intake and exhaust the engine will breath more efficiently and therefore be even leaner. You will damage the engine over time with this excessively lean condition. Get the TTS Mastertune and load a map from fullsac for your setup and you'll be suprised how much better the bike will run.

mcdonaldroadcapt · « **Reply #2 on:** October 31, 2010, 06:24:31 AM »

Pull up NIGHTRIDER.COM and read through all tabs and you will have your answer.

walstibsf · « **Reply #3 on:** October 31, 2010, 09:20:22 AM »

As your bike sits now, the EFI will keep the air/fuel ratio at or around the factory setting of 14.7:1 in the closed loop mode only. This is still really lean for the engine and was only ever to keep EPA happy. In the OPEN LOOP MODE(which your bike goes into upon special factors and conditions, like rapid acceleration, etc.) the AFR will be much, much too lean, leading to the ultimate destruction of your engine.

If you purchase a re-cal from your dealer(stage I download), they can only return the AFR back to EPA standards, even in open loop mode. Pro Super Tuner, TTS, Power commander V, etc. including canned mapping thats nearly perfect or mapping done by a tuner that knows what he is doing are some of the options that can put your fueling where the engine will run right and run cooler, whether installed by a dealer or you.

The performance by way of torque and HP that you should gain by getting the fueling right will probably be fairly substantial.

My .02

Good Luck and Laters.....

kb · « **Reply #4 on:** October 31, 2010, 10:24:49 AM »

Thanks for the info.Now the stealer gets more of my hard earned CA$H.

hdctss · « **Reply #5 on:** November 06, 2010, 07:56:54 AM »

if you check I believe you will find that there is not a stage 1 download for your bike. the cvo se bikes are already at this stage. you need to add some sort of a tuner to change your parameters. there are alot of opinions as to what is better so read them all and make your best decision. good luck

Mr. Wizard · « **Reply #6 on:** November 06, 2010, 09:07:49 AM »

Quote from: kb on October 30, 2010, 11:42:07 PM

Yesterday I installed a Stage 1 Screaming air cleaner & 1.75 Fullsac baffles, now I'm the one who is baffled.Everywhere I read that an ECM calibration must be done. I rode about 40 miles after the install. There is a definite improvement in acceleration. The bike runs fine at all rpm's no backfire,popping or other noises. Is it really necessary to have it remapped? What are the con's of notrecalibrating? I would much rather ask a stupid question than make a stupid mistake. Thanks kb

I know this thread is about a week old but......

Another thing to consider is, and has been said, the stock calibration is lean but... your ECM adaptive learning has not yet learned your new free breathing adjustments. So you may be, right now, running a tick more rich than you will be in about three tanks of gas from now. It takes a few tanks for your ECM to adjust back to the factory calibration in closed loop.

Now with that being said. From what I do understand at this time... a dealership cannot flash, using their digital technician, a stage II canned calibration anymore. The new style SEStreet has pretty much taken over dealerships which will only allow canned street legal calibrations to be flashed. With a SEStreet tuner the owner cannot flash their bike themselves. The dealer must do it for them and have in their possession a USB key token and your purchased SEStreet tuner first. With the SEStreet tuner there is no adjustments allowed in the calibrations by an outside party (the owner or anyone else).

Although I have heard second hand that there are still dealers out there selling their stock of SEPro tuners... these tuners will be in short supply and soon be gone. Welcome to the new age of EPA complaint tuning.

Depending on what you have in mind for future mods or you simply want more out of what you have now... do what was suggested above.. TTS and Fullsac calibration. Guaranteed you will be very happy with the results and it will be the best money you've spent on your ride.

kb · « **Reply #7 on:** November 06, 2010, 03:29:54 PM »

Thanks for the info. You are correct about a stage 1 . I rode to my local dealer yesterday to have it done and they also said no can do. Now I guess I need to buy a tuner etc.etc. It just never ends,does it?

ice6900 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 06, 2010, 05:05:08 PM »

welcome to the merry go round

kraut · « **Reply #9 on:** November 06, 2010, 07:14:45 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Wizard on November 06, 2010, 09:07:49 AM

... Although I have heard second hand that there are still dealers out there selling their stock of SEPro tuners... these tuners will be in short supply and soon be gone. Welcome to the new age of EPA complaint tuning.

you'r not serious, are you? SEPST discontinued?

RedDevil · « **Reply #10 on:** November 06, 2010, 07:26:42 PM »

Quote from: kraut on November 06, 2010, 07:14:45 PM

you'r not serious, are you? SEPST discontinued?

No, the SEPST is NOT being discontinued. It's still being offered in the SE Performance Parts Catalog (for "off-road and race use only") and still has the same functionality. The tuner that is being discussed above is a new Street Legal interface that is sold in the regular P&A catalog. There's about $100 (the street legal one being cheaper) and a whole lot of functionality difference between the two.

grc · « **Reply #11 on:** November 06, 2010, 08:33:41 PM »

I haven't seen any information about the demise of the "Racing Use Only" SEPST, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if H-D were forced by the EPA to cease selling it. It's a total joke that they are allowed to put out lousy running stock bikes and then sell a device to defeat the emission system so the bike will run better. They are the only vehicle manufacturer I'm aware of that gets away with this crap.

Do yourself a favor and spend your money with the aftermarket rather than reward H-D. And don't bother wasting your money on the Street Legal version either, it doesn't let you do anything other than download street legal maps at your friendly Harley dealer (for an additional charge). Those downloads won't improve the way the bike runs in closed loop mode.

Jerry

Mr. Wizard · « **Reply #12 on:** November 06, 2010, 09:09:15 PM »

The names are so confusing now.... so I'm using SEPro for the SE Pro Tuner and SEStreet for the SE Street Performance Tuner.

The SEStreet the new and cheaper one that will only flash street legal calibrations and only by the dealer. The SEPro is the old 2008 design and higher dollar tuner that you can use at home to Smart tune your bike or take to a Dyno.

I've seen the SEPro catalog page marked out with a big X over the 32109-08 at different dealers parts counter and a big warning written as "DO NOT SELL" but I have heard third hand that some dealerships are trying to get rid of their old stock as quickly as possible.

RedDevil · « **Reply #13 on:** November 06, 2010, 09:51:31 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Wizard on November 06, 2010, 09:09:15 PM

The names are so confusing now.... so I'm using SEPro for the SE Pro Tuner and SEStreet for the SE Street Performance Tuner.

The SEStreet the new and cheaper one that will only flash street legal calibrations and only by the dealer. The SEPro is the old 2008 design and higher dollar tuner that you can use at home to Smart tune your bike or take to a Dyno.

I've seen the SEPro catalog page marked out with a big X over the 32109-08 at different dealers parts counter and a big warning written as "DO NOT SELL" but I have heard third hand that some dealerships are trying to get rid of their old stock as quickly as possible.

That's entirely up to the dealers if they want to stop selling it. Probably very likely the owner is getting a little nervous of the EPA coming around to visit his dealership, which if they can prove they are tampering with the exhaust systems, can levy a substantial fine on them.

If one dealer won't sell it, go to another, they'll take your green backs I'm sure.

kraut · « **Reply #14 on:** November 07, 2010, 06:56:06 AM »

Hmmm,

does anyone know/tried if there really is any difference in the hardware between "SESPT" P/A 410 00008 and SEPST P/A 32109-08B?

I'd rather doubt ...

grc · « **Reply #15 on:** November 07, 2010, 09:22:46 AM »

Quote from: kraut on November 07, 2010, 06:56:06 AM

Hmmm,

does anyone know/tried if there really is any difference in the hardware between "SESPT" P/A 410 00008 and SEPST P/A 32109-08B?

I'd rather doubt ...

Haven't tried it, since I refuse to buy this stuff from Harley, but looking at the description and the physical makeup of the VCI's I would say they appear to be identical. The obvious difference between the two systems seems to be software only.

Both VCI's have the data recording feature and of course provide the interface for communication with the ECM. What I wonder is how H-D would prevent someone from buying the cheaper version and then using the software from someone else like a dealer or a friend with the full SEPST to perform "illegal" changes. I'm sure I'm not the first to have thought about that, so if it's possible I bet the sales of the SESPT will soar compared to the SEPST. Even Harley riders don't mind saving a buck or two these days. I guess we won't know for sure until someone actually tries it.

Jerry

kraut · « **Reply #16 on:** November 07, 2010, 10:48:55 AM »

my thought exactly

Mr. Wizard · « **Reply #17 on:** November 07, 2010, 11:41:49 AM »

A little more info

Click Here

kraut · « **Reply #18 on:** November 07, 2010, 03:30:05 PM »

thx,

one other deep look into the usual MoCo abyss

Robmay · « **Reply #19 on:** November 07, 2010, 03:39:53 PM »

Does anyone know if the after market tuners (or any for that matter) will pull the bike out of closed loop? Seems to me after a few tanks, my bike goes right back to hot, hot, hot. I can feel it on my lower leg when the ambient temps out are in the low 60's.

I have been after this answer for a year now (2010 model was the same with a Super tuner and after market tuner), but to no avail.

Steve Cole · « **Reply #20 on:** November 08, 2010, 12:00:59 PM »

You can run the bike out of closed loop with Mastertune, it's up to the tuner to make that choice. While it should not be necessary to do when tuned properly you can do it.

Mr. Wizard · « **Reply #21 on:** November 08, 2010, 12:18:59 PM »

Quote from: Steve Cole on November 08, 2010, 12:00:59 PM

You can run the bike out of closed loop with Mastertune, it's up to the tuner to make that choice. While it should not be necessary to do when tuned properly you can do it.

Steve... I think Rob means... while riding more and more miles is it possible for the ECM to tune itself out of closed loop via Adaptive Learning.

If this is the case then we both know the answer is no if we have normal operation but... there is the possibility of a mechanical or 02 sensor issue and erroneous information is being read by the ECM. At that time the ECM could richen up the L values to "act" like it is and the end result would mimic open loop free air exhaust values.

But, since he is having a heat issue that would lead me to believe he is going the other way... lean.

So, if he has a good tune there could still be a fraudulent 02 reading if there is a mechanical issue present or he may simply have an inferior tune, yes?

btw.. welcome back from your vacation.

Steve Cole · « **Reply #22 on:** November 08, 2010, 03:03:25 PM »

IF the O2 sensors are working correctly and the tune has gotten the VE tables adjusted so that the ECM is happy with the tune then NO it will not tune itself out. However if a sensor fails to work properly or an exhaust system is added that forces the O2 to read incorrectly then the ECM will again begin adjusting to try and get the O2 reading back where it wants it. It will still be in closec loop but be misadjusted. Hope this explains it well enough.

Robmay · « **Reply #23 on:** November 10, 2010, 01:21:41 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Wizard on November 08, 2010, 12:18:59 PM

Steve... I think Rob means... while riding more and more miles is it possible for the ECM to tune itself out of closed loop via Adaptive Learning.

Actually, yes but as you mention below, the other way...lean (closed loop)

If this is the case then we both know the answer is no if we have normal operation but... there is the possibility of a mechanical or 02 sensor issue and erroneous information is being read by the ECM. At that time the ECM could richen up the L values to "act" like it is and the end result would mimic open loop free air exhaust values.

But, since he is having a heat issue that would lead me to believe he is going the other way... lean.

So, if he has a good tune there could still be a fraudulent 02 reading if there is a mechanical issue present or he may simply have an inferior tune, yes?

btw.. welcome back from your vacation.

Quote from: Steve Cole on November 08, 2010, 03:03:25 PM

IF the O2 sensors are working correctly and the tune has gotten the VE tables adjusted so that the ECM is happy with the tune then NO it will not tune itself out. However if a sensor fails to work properly or an exhaust system is added that forces the O2 to read incorrectly then the ECM will again begin adjusting to try and get the O2 reading back where it wants it. It will still be in closec loop but be misadjusted. Hope this explains it well enough.

I have the fullsac 2.25" inserts, Xpipe and TTS Mastertune. I guess the thing I want to know is this: due to EPA regulations, can Harley (MOCO) starting with the 2010 models, have an ECM that no matter what you do will re-learn itself back to 14.7 to stay in compliance (to keep from going to water cooled)?

It has been my experience with this bike (2011 CVO) and my last bike (2010 stock 96" upgraded to a 103" with 255 cams) that no matter what I set the AFR at (12.7 even) the bike would run hot again after so many miles of run time (like it was relearning to stoich). I had a Super Tuner in my 2010 to start with and was told by a reputable tuner that it would not tune itself out of closed loop. He suggested the TTS with the V-tune and this was the route I went with both bikes. V-Tune on this bike was in the 2-5% range after running it (helped by Steve George via phone to make sure I had it right).

With my 09 and 07 CVO, I was able to dial the heat out with a good MAP and richening the AFR. My last 2 bikes, not even close. Speaking to Doc in the past he said the 255's run hotter. Could my heat issue be cam related?

Mr. Wizard · « **Reply #24 on:** November 10, 2010, 01:39:08 PM »

Doubt it Rob... I have the same set up with 1.75's... I'm cool as a cucumber unless I'm at rest for an extended period.

To be able to research your issue I would need more information such as your "now" ECM calibration and how you preformed your VTune, a copy of your VTune starting calibration and the first scan data. Steve and Steve are far more superior than I at this but if you need to bounce it off of me, do so via PM and we will work to get to the bottom of this.

-wiz

miker · « **Reply #25 on:** November 10, 2010, 01:40:42 PM »

Schmoopers says your hottness is all you babe....

Robmay · « **Reply #26 on:** November 11, 2010, 03:54:35 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Wizard on November 10, 2010, 01:39:08 PM

Doubt it Rob... I have the same set up with 1.75's... I'm cool as a cucumber unless I'm at rest for an extended period.

To be able to research your issue I would need more information such as your "now" ECM calibration and how you preformed your VTune, a copy of your VTune starting calibration and the first scan data. Steve and Steve are far more superior than I at this but if you need to bounce it off of me, do so via PM and we will work to get to the bottom of this.

-wiz

Thanks Wiz, much appreciated.

Robmay · « **Reply #27 on:** November 11, 2010, 03:55:30 PM »

Quote from: miker on November 10, 2010, 01:40:42 PM

Schmoopers says your hottness is all you babe....

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! You owe me a new beer...mine just ran through my nose!

Author Topic: map or no map? (Read 4190 times)