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[AUSSIE_FLSTFSE]

Don't want to open a can of worms here as I am set to try the Redshift575 but had a quick peek at the freedom bolt in cam for the 103 & they boast 105hp & 113lbtq but with no specs or dyno sheet. Also costs a chitload more WTF!
Does anyone have them fitted??
Are they gear drive??

Cheers
Aussie

[DCFIREMANN]

Look carefully it is not a SAE corrected dyno run. Zippers uncorrected are just as high!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[syclone]

AND.....Freedom wont give out the cam specs.....seems they're "SECRET"

[AUSSIE_FLSTFSE]

DC,
I did assume somthing along those lines just had to ask !

Cheers
Mike

[hd-dude]

Don't want to open a can of worms here as I am set to try the Redshift575 but had a quick peek at the freedom bolt in cam for the 103 & they boast 105hp & 113lbtq but with no specs or dyno sheet. Also costs a chitload more WTF!
Does anyone have them fitted??
Are they gear drive??

Cheers
Aussie

Here is a Freedom sheet with just the pipe, PCIII, and AC swap. The second sheet is the cam swap added ( both in STD)and the third is the same run as the second printed in SAE. The difference between SEA and STD dyno runs is minimal so don't base the decision on that. The important thing is that the before and after are both the same for a true comparison.



and SAE:




Freedom had Andrews make the cams to their specs. They are not a reboxed cam from S&S. They do not release specs because in Brad's opinion this is "proprietary" information. They do not want others copying them. These guys are old school drag racers where secrets are keep from others.

I'm not saying that the Freedom is any better or worse than the Zippers. I am just giving the facts. I myself have not decided which one that I will be going with.

[Twolanerider]

Nearly just had an incident in my Depends.  Was reading this as the phone rang and the caller ID said "IT'S ZIPPERS CALLING ABOUT YOUR CAMS!!  ANSWER THE FRIGGING PHONE!!"

Ok, that's not exactly what the caller ID displayed.  But it is what was in my head.  Tony at Zippers told me he'd just got off the phone with JR and tweaked his order with pushrods and other assorted goodies and that I was the next recipient of his very special phone calls.

Just walked out and told the bike too.  It got so happy that it dribbled a bit of something underneath itself and hopped up and down a couple of times spilling whatever was in the tour pak.  The radio came on all by itself.

There be cams out there !!

[DCFIREMANN]

Nearly just had an incident in my Depends.

[Fatboy]

Question: Why can Bob Woods, Zipper's, Andrews, Harley and every other known Cam Manufacturer I can think of post the spec's for their cams and Freedom can't?

 Every thing is "secret" with them hmmm makes me wonder..........and I don't buy into the drag racer mentality. We are not competiton to them or each other. Heck, they can't even post their own simple dyno sheets after 3-4 month's of promising them "anyday now".

 Did they clone a Cam like they cloned the Rinehart pipes and just by making a minute adjust gives them rights to call it "propreitory"? Seems like they are just upcharging someone else's work after they place their label on it.

 Sorry guys I don't mean to offend anyone but I'm not "drinking the Freedom Koolaid" any longer.

[AUSSIE_FLSTFSE]

Oops, I think I did open a can of worms!

We can put the lid back on that one now!

It's definately [highlight]ZIPPERS[/highlight] for me!


Cheers
Aussie

[syclone]

Question: Why can Bob Woods, Zipper's, Andrews, Harley and every other known Cam Manufacturer I can think of post the spec's for their cams and Freedom can't?

 Every thing is "secret" with them hmmm makes me wonder..........and I don't buy into the drag racer mentality. We are not competiton to them or each other. Heck, they can't even post their own simple dyno sheets after 3-4 month's of promising them "anyday now".

 Did they clone a Cam like they cloned the Rinehart pipes and just by making a minute adjust gives them rights to call it "propreitory"? Seems like they are just upcharging someone else's work after they place their label on it.

 Sorry guys I don't mean to offend anyone but I'm not "drinking the Freedom Koolaid" any longer.

Exactly what I was trying to say in my post.....guess I was still trying to be ...whats the word???  "polite ?"   Take a look at the Andrews 546G cam specs....would be a perfect drop in for our motors...the specs are as close as you can find to the screwed up ones on the SE253's ...and the difference would tend to change the curve in the same places as the "secret" Freedom cam.....I mean andrews cam.....no Freedom cam.......Andrews..   Whatever!!

[UK Dave]

Now that is a good one. A DRIBBLE?

Yeah it's what soccer players do before they shoot

Some people have another name for it though...

As in

"Do you dribble before you shoot?"

Cheers

Dave

[AUSSIE_FLSTFSE]

Yeah it's what soccer players do before they shoot

Some people have another name for it though...

As in

"Do you dribble before you shoot?"

Cheers

Dave

Before & after !

[Fatboy]

Exactly what I was trying to say in my post.....guess I was still trying to be ...whats the word???

[hd-dude]

--------------------------------------------------------------
JMHO.....but I believe Freedom won't post their cam spec.'s because if they did we'd all buy the real mccoy directly from the manufacturer or elsewhere and save their upcharge's.
 Additionally, their secret Freedom Pipe setup is most likely a simple baffle change which anyone can do themselves to a set of Rinehart's. If their gig was that good wouldn't it stand to reason that Bub/Rinehart would alter their own offerings accordingly to keep pace...........hmmm?
 Ok ,I'm done venting!

[Fatboy]

HD-Dude,

 I not bashing anyone or their product!

 I'm simply stating the known facts as well as my opinions and questioning the Freedom way of doing business compared to how their competitor's do business. They have a right to operate as they choose even if it is considered out of the norm by some. And I have a right to voice my concern's. It would be nice if Freedom 1 could just get around to responding to the questions posed in his Vendor Thread which he has committed to month's ago. The lack of answer's is leaving me (as well as other's here) very skeptical.

 We don't have to agree on this topic and that's ok, I know they have many happy customer's.....so to each his own.

 But since you have experience here with both Rinehart's and Freedom Pipes what are the physical difference's you have noted to date?

 And can you please speculate further as to why Freedom Cycle has not been forthcoming with the information those here on the site have previously requested?

 Fatboy

[WaSEEG]

I have to jump in here.  I posted my dyno sheet a few days ago in the SEEG forum and put a note in the twin cam forum.  I don't know what the difference between SAE and Standard is and quite frankly don't care.  All I know is that my bike runs stronger and pulls harder throughout the rpm range with Freedom Cams.  I don't drag race but appreciate the extra power when passing or riding in the mountains.  A lot of folks get caught up in numbers but I'm more interested in rideability.  

As far as the difference between Freedom pipes and Rineharts I've had both.  There is an actual physical difference between the two in that the Freedom pipes have a longer front header pipe which extends down lower and almost below the cam cover.  Remember some folks were  having problems early on with the billet brake pedal touching the pipe.  That fitment problem resulted from the longer header pipe.  There may be other differences but I haven't measured the length and width of each pipe segment so I don't know for sure.  I haven't pulled the baffles in my Freedom pipes but if I were to guess they are probably using a smaller baffle.  I actually went with Rineharts quiet baffle on my Road King and it's powerband was similar to Freedom's i. e. a steady increase in power as opposed the the sudden increase at about 4000 rpms as I experienced with stock Rineharts and the 2 1/4 " baffles.

I don't know why Brad or Mark won't release their cam and pipe specifications.  Evidently they view them as proprietary.  I'm sure that info would be helpful to those here who actually understand such concepts as lift and duration and how they relate to our engine.  As I understand it Freedom sought to come up with  bolt in cams for the 103 that increased power through out the rpm range w/o the need for additional engine work.  I think they suceeded.  Zippers cam looks  to be similar.  I expect it will also be suceesfull.  Everything I've heard about Zippers has been positive.  Unfortunately, an near as I can tell they are located somewhere back east and the liklihood of me traveling to their shop to get some work done on my bike was not very high.  Reno, on the other hand is a mere 600 miles from my home.  It was an easy choice for me.  

I posted my dyno sheet here if anyone is interested.  If anyone can explain , in non-technical terms, the difference between SAE and standard, I might be persuaded to try and assimilate that info.The lower numbers on the chart are with a Dyno run done last may with Freedom pipes, SE aircleaner and a PC.  The red line is after the Freedom cam install.  Incidently my wifes bike with a SE stage II build went from 71hp to 90 hp and from 77.7 foot lbs of torque to 97.7 foot lbs with just the addition of the pipes and pc.



Dan

[syclone]

Has anyone gotten an answer from Freedom .....will they ship one of their cvo 103 cams for customer installation...or do they still insist on installing the thing ??

I'm not now, nor Have I ever suggested that their cam doenst make the numbers they posted
(the Zippers curve is quicker and hangs in longer)....and not "bashing" them. It's just real suspisious to me that for what is the" heart" of the motor we can get no specs......and they insist on doing the install (if this is still the case) makes me more hesitant to believe its all their doing.
So their "market" for these is then limited to those close enough to take the bike to them....and not just any twin cam mind you....but just cvo motors...boy there's a big local market!  Seems like a lot of developement expense would be be involved, for little profit potential. Good business sense right there .
Now If they can be purchased...all one would have to do is take the cams to any respectible engine builder...they'll set it up and tell us the specs.

[grc]

Has anyone gotten an answer from Freedom .....will they ship one of their cvo 103 cams for customer installation...or do they still insist on installing the thing ??

See this thread, reply #3.

[WaSEEG]

Has anyone gotten an answer from Freedom .....will they ship one of their cvo 103 cams for customer installation...or do they still insist on installing the thing ??

I'm not now, nor Have I ever suggested that their cam doenst make the numbers they posted
(the Zippers curve is quicker and hangs in longer)....and not "bashing" them. It's just real suspisious to me that for what is the" heart" of the motor we can get no specs......and they insist on doing the install (if this is still the case) makes me more hesitant to believe its all their doing.
So their "market" for these is then limited to those close enough to take the bike to them....and not just any twin cam mind you....but just cvo motors...boy there's a big local market!

[jeffj]

I have the Freedom 103 Cam and also use their Freedom Exhaust and yeah my scooter was tuned at Freedom Cycles.
I to am not a tech type kind of guy but I will say that Yeah I can feel the difference in the seat of my scooter.
Brad, Mark, Rick and James all of Freedom Cycles in Reno, NV in my books are Top Notch People with Great Integrity.

Owning a HD is Kewl and one thing that I really like is every Rider has a different opinion on what looks good on his scoot
and what makes it go faster and I guess I what I am trying to say is: Freedom Cycles Rocks in my thinking.

Different Strokes for Different Folks


jeffj

[Fatboy]

 Quick question or two for all Freedom Package user's (with and without their cams).....

 Have you ever retested your bike on another Dyno after installation of their set up?

 If so how did the Dyno sheets compare and was the new reading SAE or STD?

 I'm curious to see if any difference's have occured or if they've remained spot on.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

 

 

[Street Stalker]

I find this a very interesting topic and feel I am taking the side of Fatboy.  Most good builders are not going to put a product in their customers bike based upon someone telling them it works.  I find that in todays market with every other after market company more or less giving you the specs on their cams, that it's ludicrous they would not give their specs...  I think it's natural for most of us to think something isn't right.  I always go with my gut and if someone thinks I'm going to set myself apart from a whole lot of $$$ because you say it works but won't let me see it, go find yourself another fish.  I e-mailed them about buying pistons, heads and cam kit and they told me I had to bring the bike to them.  I live in Maine, not gonna happen.  I asked if they would send it to my builder with 20 years exp. and got no response back.  Take that for what it's worth!

Zippers will be getting allot of business due to arrogance of the competition!

[jeffj]

Quick question or two for all Freedom Package user's (with and without their cams).....

 Have you ever retested your bike on another Dyno after installation of their set up?
[highlight]Nope no need to as the scooter hauls ass[/highlight]

 If so how did the Dyno sheets compare and was the new reading SAE or STD?
[highlight]If you look at hd-dudes earlier post you will see the last dyno was corrected to STD - thats my scooter[/highlight]

I'm curious to see if any difference's have occured or if they've remained spot on.

[Big Al]

General comment:

IMHO- We ought to have a thread where someone who knows how to measure a cam, can put the measurements from all of these 'secret' cams.[smiley=idea.gif]

If you can buy one, you can measure it, you can publish it- so why do these guys insist on saying its "secret"...

[Fatboy]

This thread reminds me of the old Cowboy movies we all watched as kids and leave's us with similiar unknowns to ponder:

                    "What's really in that Dr Smith's Cure-All Snake Oil" ?

                      "Can it really be the miracle cure as advertised" ?

 We know we have the same type of current users who march out from behind the curtain and swear by it but can't really tell us what it is that's in the bottle.......

 I agree... "to each his own" and if it works for you great! Maybe I should try it also and I'd find I'd like it to. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

 But before laying out serious cash I like to know exactly what it is I'm buying and why it is a better product and better value then similiar products on the market. Then once I'm properly informed I'm ready to go into the buying mode. I like to make the right decision to meet my needs the first time I lay the money down JMHO.

 And I am sorry if in anyway my past postings on this topic's have offended anyone.... [smiley=oops.gif]

[Twolanerider]

And I am sorry if in anyway my past postings on this topic's have offended anyone.... [smiley=oops.gif]

Even me   ?

[Fatboy]

C'mon Don,

 1. Your not a "thin skinned weenie".

 2. I don't believe you've ever drank the Koolaid.

 3. I've heard from vendor's at the V-Twin Expo that your as thorough as they come (nice way of saying you too can be a "pain in the ass").

 4. And most importantly (ya can't fool me) your a ZIPPER'S Man!

[Fired00d]

C'mon Don,

 1. Your not a "thin skinned weenie".

You know him (Don) well.
 
2. I don't believe you've ever drank the Koolaid.

You know him well.

 3. I've heard from vendor's at the V-Twin Expo that your as thorough as they come (nice way of saying you too can be a "pain in the ass").

They know of him well.
 
 4. And most importantly (ya can't fool me) your a ZIPPER'S Man!

[Twolanerider]

C'mon Don,

 1. Your not a "thin skinned weenie".

 2. I don't believe you've ever drank the Koolaid.

 3. I've heard from vendor's at the V-Twin Expo that your as thorough as they come (nice way of saying you too can be a "pain in the ass").

 4. And most importantly (ya can't fool me) your a ZIPPER'S Man!

[PCC]

I have been a good friend of the Yuill Bros. for over 30 years. I've had four Harley's and have worked with Brad on the motors in all of them. I hate to see guys who I know would love these guys if you met them, bash them because of some suspicion over their unwillingness to disclose cam specs.

It's an idyosyncrocy left over from the days when you beat competition like Bob Glidden and others by a hundreth of a second. Believe me, a lot of their close friends wish that Brad would give out some more info. We can;t get him to do it either...so we just live with it because the motors WORK. Maybe it doesn't make sense to you.....SOOOO WHAT!!!!

These guys have developed some parts that...THEY THINK...are proprietary. Whether you believe they work or not, and whether you buy or not, is up to you.....THEY DON"T CARE if YOU don't buy their stuff.

If you start off by having  AN ATTITUDE.....BASED ON INFERENCE and no ^%^$$^ FACTS. Then you should go somewhere else.

As regards their cams, I can tell you that the grinds are not the same as S&S or WOODS or Andrews. They are slightly different, just as the length of the downtubes on thier exhaust and the baffles are different from Rineharts.

Call Brad and talk to him before you start runnin your mouth. the guys who actually work with these guys are pretty unanimous about their level of service and commitment to making your scooter run great.


One final thing...Just because Brad doesn't necessarily make a cam or a pipe or a piston designed to get you the best dyno figure....that doesn't mean HE CAN'T. The dyno at Freedom is there for one purpose....TO COMPARE THE RESULTS ON FREEDOM BIKES TO OTHER FREEDOM BIKES. That's why STD or SAE doesn't matter to Brad.

Certain guys on this forum sound like a running advertisment for Zippers....maybe THAT'S what should seem SUPICIOUS when mean spirited posts appear.


Sorry for the Rant.

[Twolanerider]

I hate to see guys...

[BLM777]

PCC....See no reason to be "sorry for the rant".  You're being friends with the folks at Freedom more than explains your position.

I really haven't seen anyone bashing the Freedom products or the people on this site who have elected to use them.  The controversy that has run throughout this thread seems to come from two issues.  First is the Freedom "knockoff" of the original Rinehart headers.  The second, and probably more destructive to any credibility that Freedom may have, outside of a very limited and at most regional marketshare acceptance is their pitching "secret" grinds and modifications.  This isn't the old days where uniformed bike enthusiasts followed the crowd to a "secret builder" for a "secret mod" to get ahead of the pack.  Thanks to the internet, sites such as this and professional development companies such as Jim's, Zippers, Andrews and S&S, just to name a few, who have invested millions of dollars into improving performance products, owners interested in a performance build have become educated.  

I think you cleared up a lot of the mystery on the "secret" nature at Freedom when you explained that "they don't care if you buy their stuff".  Obviously, that's correct as I can't think of any owner or legitimate builder who would step up to the checkbook chasing a phantom upgrade cam.  The drag racing analogy doesn't hold water.  These aren't competitive race cams and can be "spec'd" in a matter of minutes by anyone familiar with cam design.

I think the "attitude" that you refer to in the postings is the result of Freedom not presenting a straightforward representation of their product for comparison by  some very mechanically sophisticated members.  Basically, people who have been around bikes a long time also and are capable of making an informed decision based upon fact.

Being friends with Freedom, you may be able to  end the controversy and ask them to post the specs, expected result with various upgrade combinations and their independant dyno testing.  No room for controversy there.

Just my view of an equitable ending to a very long and never ending debate.

[HUBBARD]

One final thing...Just because Brad doesn't necessarily make a cam or a pipe or a piston designed to get you the best dyno figure....that doesn't mean HE CAN'T. The dyno at Freedom is there for one purpose....TO COMPARE THE RESULTS ON FREEDOM BIKES TO OTHER FREEDOM BIKES. That's why STD or SAE doesn't matter to Brad.

[highlight]Certain guys on this forum sound like a running advertisment for Zippers....maybe THAT'S what should seem SUPICIOUS when mean spirited posts appear.[/highlight]


Sorry for the Rant.

Yeah, 'er 'uh, PCC,
  HUB don't mind takin' credit for bein' one of those "Certain Guys", you referred to.  I, personally don't know the Yuill Boys, nor have I ever used any of their products.  Clearly, that is not to say any of their products are inferior to another.  I've heard alot of good, positive things about those folks.  What I do know to be a fact is, my Ol' "Led Sled" went by a SEEG, with one of Freedom's extensive upgrade packages, like it was sittin' up on Jack Stands!   Ain't no SUSPICION in that, my friend.  That's just the cold, hard truth.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD      

[CVOJOE]

Let's see if I get this right. Freedom says $700+ shipping for 103" cams that they won't share the lift or timing on, and they say will bring 105HP and 113 FT LBS.

I'm now getting 105HP & 108FT LBS with stock H-D cams, and if I 'upgrade' that works out to be 5 FT LBS for $700+labor. $140 + per FT LB, now there's a deal!
Of course the gear drive is a plus, but the return on investment just doesn't seem to be there IMHO.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[WaSEEG]

Let's see if I get this right. Freedom says $700+ shipping for 103" cams that they won't share the lift or timing on, and they say will bring 105HP and 113 FT LBS.

I'm now getting 105HP & 108FT LBS with stock H-D cams, and if I 'upgrade' that works out to be 5 FT LBS for $700+labor. $140 + per FT LB, now there's a deal!
Of course the gear drive is a plus, but the return on investment just doesn't seem to be there IMHO.

[grc]

Let's see if I get this right. Freedom says $700+ shipping for 103" cams that they won't share the lift or timing on, and they say will bring 105HP and 113 FT LBS.

I'm now getting 105HP & 108FT LBS with stock H-D cams, and if I 'upgrade' that works out to be [highlight]5 FT LBS for $700+labor. $140 + per FT LB, now there's a deal![/highlight]Of course the gear drive is a plus, but the return on investment just doesn't seem to be there IMHO.

[AUSSIE_FLSTFSE]

Joe,

With both the Freedom cam and the Zipper's cam, the objective wasn't a big increase in peak numbers.

[grc]

Jerry,
You say these cams are ideal for 'Heavy Baggers' so how do you think they will preform in in FatBoy?

[PCC]

Hey Hubb;

You sound like one of those boys that the Yuill Bros. used to race. No argument with your passin up a bike with the Freedom upgrade package. Apples & Oranges... I think that if Brad were still in the racin game, he might like to build a 120 with high lift cams and "run your ass" (I mean that in the good sense). It's natural for big dogs to bark, but at least on this forum, as to who would win that race....opinions vary! In my opinion, that's always been the fun of it, and without guys like you...there wouldn't be much fun!


As to others who responded...Rather than saying that "something suspicious must be goin on"...you all should have just left it at, "It's their choice, and I won't buy camshafts if they won't disclose specs". Make no mistake...there was some bashing...unfair...and I won't let that go!

[CVOJOE]

[highlight]A couple of thoughts:

[DCFIREMANN]

Hey Hubb;

As to others who responded...Rather than saying that "something suspicious must be goin on"...you all should have just left it at, "It's their choice, and I won't buy camshafts if they won't disclose specs". Make no mistake...there was some bashing...unfair...and I won't let that go!

I was going to let this die but since I was made out to be one of "THE GOLDEN CHILDREN of ZIPPERS I feel I just can't sit back and let it go! The problem I have is it's not that I'm bashing because I was not. Freedom is on the left coast and Zippers on the right coast. Zippers is an hour from me and I have been dealing with them for years(16 or better) so my choice is going to be Zippers. When Freedoms cams were first released they would not sell the great secret cams for the 103 to the public! POINT BLANK that being said I am not driving 2000 miles for a set of cams that I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT I AM GETTING. Not to mention the price! Wanting to keep a secret form the consumer makes me and others wonder. I have been turning a wrench on Harleys for quite a few years and this is not my first rodeo. If you feel that Freedom Cycles is the chit then that is your opinion. I have never delt with them and I am sure they are a decent shop to deal with.

I have never been to Freedom's shop but I have been to Zippers. I can bet you they are not even in the same league. The main thing about the 103 bolt in cams was not to increase HP but to improve the TQ curve and driveability. Zippers did that as did Freedom. Zippers went a step beyond that with the different packages for the CVO 103. I would like to think that Freedom has done the same. So to me the decision on who to use was easy. Zippers was very close to me, I have used them in the past, they have a great rep with dealers and consumers WORLD WIDE,and they have decent pricing. They also stand behind thier products 100% with no questions asked. If it is something they caused you are covered.

I hope this let you know where I stand and that I really am not bashing Freedom it's just my money is being spent at Zippers.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DCFIREMANN]

PCC I guess I could put in better wording! You deal with Freedom because it's who you trust and who you have dealt with in the past, and also it's where your heart is. Kind of like your Harley. I am just as comfortable with Zippers so that is where I deal.

It's all just a matter of opinion. I guess this is one of those threads that should have never should have been started.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[HUBBARD]

PCC I guess I could put in better wording! You deal with Freedom because it's who you trust and who you have dealt with in the past, and also it's where your heart is. Kind of like your Harley. I am just as comfortable with Zippers so that is where I deal.

It's all just a matter of opinion. [highlight]I guess this is one of those threads that should have never should have been started.[/highlight]

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Yeah, 'er 'uh, DAWG,
  Sure it should have, DAWG!  Information and communication are the two most important components of any business venture, or conversation, for that matter.  Hell, competition is what makes the World go 'round!  You are right in that people deal with who they know, like, and trust.    I'm gonna' ride home with who brung me.  I was already in Zipper's corner, and when they stepped up and replaced my 2 year old Intake, that just furthered my confidence in them.  That's definitely Service after the Sale.  Besides, ain't had the displeasure of another Bagger to come around Ol' Maudie, yet, and I've put Her to the Test against more names than Freedom's.  Zipper's Rules in Hub's House!   Later--HUBBARD  
  

[DCFIREMANN]

Yeah, 'er 'uh, DAWG,