Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[CowboyBagger]

In 2008, I bought a brand new FLHX that the dealer had fixed up on the show room floor.  Custom Paint, 110 kit upgrade and chrome everywhere.  The only thing that I thought that I needed to do to it was to upgrade the exhaust.  Dealership recommended V&H dresser duals, so I went with their recommendation.  They delivered the bike and it ran like crap.  They told me to bring it back and they would fix the problem.  The fix was at my cost and included  a power commander with a costly dyno tune.  The bike ran fairly good with that setup. 

About a year ago, the FLHX started getting a few oil seeps and starting hard.  Dealership said they would fix it.  They fixed the oil seeps and the service manager said that to get my bike running more smoothly that I need to junk the powercommander and put on a SERPT.  Picked up the SG and it ran like crap: no torque, no throttle response, vibrated everywhere and was about twice as loud.  Needless to say that I was a very unhappy camper.  Took the SG back to the dealer and told them to put the Power Commander back on.  They did and said when it gets cold bring it back and we will get everything tuned right.  Took it to the dealer in November and just got it back.  They put the SERPT back on tuned it and said that it is running great.  When I drove it home here is what I noticed:  torque and throttle response are close but not as good as the power commander.  Vibration better but not gone and it still starts hard.

Really have been researching this site.  It seems that I probably need to switch to an auto tune tuner like Thundermax or Rev Performance.  I know that I still have the narrow band o2 sensors.  It appears that Revolution Performance has a little better auto tuner when you look at the comparisons.  I really hate to buy new exhaust, but after researching this site I know that I would set the FHLX up differently next time.  I'm a farmer and I've been around power and machinery all of my life.  I've never owned anything with too much power, except maybe my second wife!!

Give me any ideas, thoughts or comments on the correct way to get the bike running great.  I'm a newbie to this site, but I'm willing to learn from the experts!!

[Twolanerider]

A lot of info scattered over several attempts at getting the bike right.  Confirm (or not) that this is accurate:

Bike never has run "right" but the way it runs has varied with different tuning attempts.

Also, lots of contradictory suggestion and evaluation from the same dealer.  None of which has ever ended up with a really well tuned bike.

If that's a correct summary I'd not have the warm fuzzies about making some next big tuning system jump.  It's never run really right.  So you don't know if there has always been some actual problem that's been tuned around or if it's just been bad tuning effort after bad tuning effort.

If there is a problem no new tuning device will correct it.  Have fix hardware before software does you any good.

If it is just a bad tune than the devices you mentioned are options.  Personally of the two (and I have them both) I'd use the EMS kit in a heart beat.  In your case it would be a relatively simple bolt on installation.  Your 2008 pipes wouldn't need to be changed.  And there would be no more tuning effort required.  You'd know the tune was good to begin with.

Using the EMS kit (or T-Max for that matter) you'd have to know with some specificity what work the dealership did to the engine before you took it home.  The tune they'll build for your engine will be based on the specifics of that engine.

Only way I'd consider using the EMS kit (or any other next tuning option you'd consider) before knowing all potential hardware problems were taken care would be if I was absolutely certain beforehand I was going to use the kit anyway.  Then could use it as part of the process of elimation to isolate the tune from the other potential hardware problems. 

In other words if you put on the EMS kit and it still ran bad you'd have isolated the prospect of a bad tune from the equation.  You'd then know there was a parts problem somewhere.  And when that was finally diagnosed and repaired the bike would finally run as well as it was going to.  While not an illigitimate way to trouble shoot if you know that's what you're doing going in it is a bit ass backwards from how you'd normally like to approach the problem.

Lastly, since the dealer sounds like he may have his head in a dark brown place the EMS kit (if there are no other problems) gets him out of your hair too.  You put the kit on and start riding.  That's it.  No more dealer effort required.

[mjb765]

Providing there is nothing else wrong with the bike (and that is a BIG first step), you might try finding someone else who can tune your bike with the product that you already own.....

[CowboyBagger]

Twolanerider, you are exactly right.  The bike has never run correctly.  Real, Real bad with the first SERPT dyno tune that I'm sure the tech didn't have a clue how to do.

One thing that I forgot to mention:  When they put on the V&H pipes (bike was brand new)and delivered the bike to my house, I cranked the bike and ran it for a few miles(it was March and cold).  When I got back, I noticed that there was crap hanging out of the exhaust pipes.  It looked like some type of packing or wrap that the pipes or mufflers were packaged in.  After a few more miles the crap quit coming out of the exhaust.  I asked the dealership and they said that was no big deal, whatever was in there had burnt out.  I'm wondering if something is still not right with the exhaust and creating tuning problems?  I'm thinking more likely, that the bike needs wide band O2 sensors and a richer ratio with a better tune job.  That's why I was looking at the Revolution Performance auto tuner.  I talked to an independent well known tech and he recommended the Thundermax from Zippers.  Any thoughts on that? 

Also, how important would it be to have the heads ported?  Or any other ideas that you might have.

[mjb765]

Twolanerider, you are exactly right.  The bike has never run correctly.  Real, Real bad with the first SERPT dyno tune that I'm sure the tech didn't have a clue how to do.

One thing that I forgot to mention:  When they put on the V&H pipes (bike was brand new)and delivered the bike to my house, I cranked the bike and ran it for a few miles(it was March and cold).  When I got back, I noticed that there was crap hanging out of the exhaust pipes.  It looked like some type of packing or wrap that the pipes or mufflers were packaged in.  After a few more miles the crap quit coming out of the exhaust.  I asked the dealership and they said that was no big deal, whatever was in there had burnt out.  I'm wondering if something is still not right with the exhaust and creating tuning problems?  I'm thinking more likely, that the bike needs wide band O2 sensors and a richer ratio with a better tune job.  That's why I was looking at the Revolution Performance auto tuner.  I talked to an independent well known tech and he recommended the Thundermax from Zippers.  Any thoughts on that? 

Also, how important would it be to have the heads ported?  Or any other ideas that you might have.

You mention that it has run bad since the first tune...that would be the first clue to try to find another more competant tuner. Yon don't necessarily need wideband O2 sensors to run properly--there are plenty of bikes using the stock O2 sensors and a good tune that run fine.

[HOGMIKE]

I"m having a hard time following this.
You bought your bike in 2008 and from day one it "ran like crap"?
The dealer "fixed" it with YOU paying for the "fix" (never mind that it was never "fixed" to your liking).
Fast forward 4 years and you are looking at throwing more money for a tuner, heads, whatever.
If it were me, I'd find another dealer. There is something not right with your bike, they all don't "run like crap".

Now, if I'm off base, let me know. On the other hand, depending on your wishes, you can pull the motor, do the heads, whatever you wish. It's YOUR bike.
Me, I'm the type who will dig as deep as I must to find out the "why" and "how come" the bike "runs like crap"!
BUT, that's just ME!
 

[CowboyBagger]

HogMike,  I hear ya and agree.  The first time the bike ran like crap is when they put the pipes on without any tuner (backfired like crazy).  They put the Power Commander on and it ran pretty good after the high priced dyno tune on it.  It got to starting hard, so they put on the SERPT and it ran extremely bad.  They put the Power Commander back on and it ran almost as good as it did the first time they had it on but was still hard starting.  They put the SERPT back on and dynoed it again and it ran almost as good as the first Power Commander, but vibrates and still starts hard.  I have never seen the dyno sheets or the air/fuel ratio's (when I picked up the bike, they said that the guy that had them wasn't in).  I'm guessing that the starting hard is coming from the fuel ratio.  I don't know about the vibration, seems like a timing thing to me.  Does the tuner address timing?  Should I tear down my exhaust to see if there is something funky going on that's screwing everything up?

I live 2.5 hours from the dealership, the bike has been dynoed 4 times.  That's why I was looking at an auto tuner.  I use to be a John Deere dealer and I have two John Deere tech's that still work for me, but it's not a diesel!!ha ha  I like all the suggestions and comments, keep them coming!

[grc]

Just throwing more money at different tuning devices is not likely to result in any sort of real improvement.  First comment I have to make is pretty obvious; you need to find someone a whole lot better than that dealer to work on your bike and tune it.  It's run like crap for roughly four years now, and all they've done is soak you for two different tuning devices and however many dyno tunes, without ever making the bike run "not like crap".  I think I would have stopped giving them the benefit of the doubt three years ago.

As noted by 2lane, the first and most important step is diagnosis of the mechanical and electrical sysems to make certain you don't have a problem that no "tune" can fix.  If that dealer did as great a job installing your 110 kit as they did with the subsequent tuning attempts, I don't think you can just assume everything was done correctly.

Do some research locally and find a highly regarded professional tuner, and get his opinion on how your bike is actually running versus what his experience says it should do.  I don't know exactly what "runs like crap" actually means.  If you just think it should produce more power, you may be expecting way too much of a 110 kit.  If it stumbles and stalls and hesitates, then yes that is not acceptable and it needs to be corrected.


Jerry

[Fired00d]

HogMike,  I hear ya and agree.  The first time the bike ran like crap is when they put the pipes on without any tuner (backfired like crazy).  They put the Power Commander on and it ran pretty good after the high priced dyno tune on it.  It got to starting hard, so they put on the SERPT and it ran extremely bad.  They put the Power Commander back on and it ran almost as good as it did the first time they had it on but was still hard starting.  They put the SERPT back on and dynoed it again and it ran almost as good as the first Power Commander, but vibrates and still starts hard.  I have never seen the dyno sheets or the air/fuel ratio's (when I picked up the bike, they said that the guy that had them wasn't in).  I'm guessing that the starting hard is coming from the fuel ratio.  I don't know about the vibration, seems like a timing thing to me.  Does the tuner address timing?  Should I tear down my exhaust to see if there is something funky going on that's screwing everything up?

I live 2.5 hours from the dealership, the bike has been dynoed 4 times.  That's why I was looking at an auto tuner.  I use to be a John Deere dealer and I have two John Deere tech's that still work for me, but it's not a diesel!!ha ha  I like all the suggestions and comments, keep them coming!

Many attempts to fix/correct issues w/your bike... many dyno tunes and no dyno sheets.... walk... hell no!!!... run from that dealership!!!! Something doesn't pass the smell test here... if they (this particular dealership) was on the up and up supplying you a dyno sheet should have been automatic.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Twolanerider]

One thing that I forgot to mention:  When they put on the V&H pipes (bike was brand new)and delivered the bike to my house, I cranked the bike and ran it for a few miles(it was March and cold).  When I got back, I noticed that there was crap hanging out of the exhaust pipes.  It looked like some type of packing or wrap that the pipes or mufflers were packaged in.  After a few more miles the crap quit coming out of the exhaust. 

In your Deere dealership if a client brought a machine back to your service depot with unknown crap running out of places that crap of any kind should not be running out would you have expected that customer to accept an answer that basically says, "it's ok now"?

Whether or not your dealer is an ass generally or you've just let him get away with being a parsimonious ass a parsimonious, and potentially incompetent, ass he nonetheless is.  That you've let him get away with it this long, and paid him for the privilege no less, means it won't get any better.  They know what they've got on the hook now and what they can get away with. 

You're paying for whatever comes next anyway.  Find a local riding buddy (or, hopefully, buddies) who deal regularly with some other shop.  A shop known and recommended to be good in the experience of others whom you trust.  Take the bike there.  Pay them to make it right.  Trust their judgement.  Pay the bill when you're done.

You've already made some ill advised choices accepting the things you've accepted so far.  It's time to put the ball in someone else's court.

[Twolanerider]

Many attempts to fix/correct issues w/your bike... many dyno tunes and no dyno sheets.... walk... hell no!!!... run from that dealership!!!! Something doesn't pass the smell test here... if they (this particular dealership) was on the up and up supplying you a dyno sheet should have been automatic.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

Gary, if a shop leans toward laziness and incompetence to begin the only way to get better out of them is to catch the problem, not accept the problem and definitely don't pay them again.  If you're not only paying to get bent over but requesting the privilege the shop isn't the only venue to take some blame.

We're responsible for what we accept and how we follow up.  If we accept bullchit work and/or answers than more bullchit is not only what we should expect it's what we've earned.  We don't have to be self-reliant and do it all ourselves.  We've got to be better than lemmings following the herd or circus riding animals accepting what we're told though.

[Fired00d]

Gary, if a shop leans toward laziness and incompetence to begin the only way to get better out of them is to catch the problem, not accept the problem and definitely don't pay them again.  If you're not only paying to get bent over but requesting the privilege the shop isn't the only venue to take some blame.

We're responsible for what we accept and how we follow up.  If we accept bullchit work and/or answers than more bullchit is not only what we should expect it's what we've earned.  We don't have to be self-reliant and do it all ourselves.  We've got to be better than lemmings following the herd or circus riding animals accepting what we're told though.

I agree... he should have "run" long ago... but the fact that he hasn't it should be known/stated it is now time to find somebody else to work on his bike... he's bent ova and grabbed his ankle's one too many times.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[CowboyBagger]

Twolanerider..... I 100% agree!

Does anyone know of a good shop in the Kansas City area?

[Twolanerider]

I agree... he should have "run" long ago... but the fact that he hasn't it should be known/stated it is now time to find somebody else to work on his bike... he's bent ova and grabbed his ankle's one too many times.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

Amen.  Find a good shop known to be trusted.  Do what they say.  Don't butt in ('cause we don't have a good track record so far at self-help).  Pay the bill when you're done.  Finally ride away.

[glens]

You certainly weren't running closed-loop with the Power Commander and you may not be now.  V&H pipes have reportedly had some pretty bad issues with their O2 sensor mounting configuration and they've also reportedly declined to address the issue since they sell product as fast as they can make it.

If you're using or going to use O2 sensors they must be capable of getting good sample or things are going to go pretty badly.  It sounds on the face of it like that's what'd happened with the first go-round with the SE tuning interface.  Maybe they got it running halfway decent again by disabling closed-loop operation.  If that's the case and it's because the O2 sensors are worthless due to they way they're fixed in the pipes, no TMAX or EMS is going to help.  They'll both fail just as miserably.

With the SE tuner you have, if it's the "race" and not the "street" version, you should be able to address any EFI settings which are causing your hard starting and poor running.  If they cannot be addressed via the tuning interface then it's got to be one or more mechanical problems at hand.

I'll second or third or fourth, whatever the count is at by now, that you find somebody a little more mechanically inclined as well as able to understand adjusting EFI.