Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[mbrewer566]

I put on a Cobra Fi200R tuner after changing the pipes on the Breakout, and never was happy with the lag when it lost the cache memory on shutdown and restart.  I don't like dyno and dedicated tuner since I tinker a lot.  I like the idea of auto tuning, but at $400-$700 the cost is extravagant.  I read Night Rider's logic, that the Delphi ECM is fully capable of handling pipe and air cleaner changes, but adjusts back to the too lean EPA mandate.

I just removed the Cobra, and installed Night Riders ViED's, set at 50%.  An amazing improvement.  Great ride, lower temperature, plenty of power.

Save your money and go Night Rider XiED or ViED.

[North Georgia Hawg]

You really need to learn the basics of the Dephi ECM. You appear to know very little about it. It will adjust a bit... but only several percent from the base tables in the calibration. If the table values are not right for the build, it cannot adjust properly to maintain proper AFR, timing, etc. for the engine configuration.

Xieds merely fool the ECM by enriching the mixture outside of its control, or even its knowledge... rather like doing brain surgery with a shotgun... after the fact.

I suggest that you go do a little research. There is no such thing as "auto tuning"... it's all just marketing hype.

There are three things for which there is no replacement:

1. Displacement
2. Properly-matched engine components
2. A PROPER TUNE for the build

PERIOD

Ken

[CowboyBagger]

You really need to learn the basics of the Dephi ECM. You appear to know very little about it. It will adjust a bit... but only several percent from the base tables in the calibration. If the table values are not right for the build, it cannot adjust properly to maintain proper AFR, timing, etc. for the engine configuration.

Xieds merely fool the ECM by enriching the mixture outside of its control, or even its knowledge... rather like doing brain surgery with a shotgun... after the fact.

I suggest that you go do a little research. There is no such thing as "auto tuning"... it's all just marketing hype.

There are three things for which there is no replacement:

1. Displacement
2. Properly-matched engine components
2. A PROPER TUNE for the build

PERIOD

Ken

X2

[mbrewer566]

You really need to learn the basics of the Dephi ECM. You appear to know very little about it. It will adjust a bit... but only several percent from the base tables in the calibration. If the table values are not right for the build, it cannot adjust properly to maintain proper AFR, timing, etc. for the engine configuration.

Xieds merely fool the ECM by enriching the mixture outside of its control, or even its knowledge... rather like doing brain surgery with a shotgun... after the fact.

I suggest that you go do a little research. There is no such thing as "auto tuning"... it's all just marketing hype.

There are three things for which there is no replacement:

1. Displacement
2. Properly-matched engine components
2. A PROPER TUNE for the build

PERIOD

Ken

Thanks for the advice, but I am happy, and have used Night Rider XiED's on 3 Harleys now, with no ill effects, and am a satisfied customer.  Fooling the ECM is ok with me.

[hrdtail78]

set at 50%. 

Can you explain what you mean?

[mbrewer566]

Can you explain what you mean?

The variable units have a small adjustment dial to change the air/fuel mixture. 

http://sales.nightrider.com/

[2k]

Thanks for the advice, but I am happy, and have used Night Rider XiED's on 3 Harleys now, with no ill effects, and am a satisfied customer.  Fooling the ECM is ok with me.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that logic, but getting optimum results while doing this is rare. Glad you are happy with your results.

[05Train]

If you're happy, I'm happy for you.

[OBB]

Absolutely nothing wrong with that logic, but getting optimum results while doing this is rare. Glad you are happy with your results.

  Glad you changed your avatar. My wife was wondering why I liked sitting in the truck while she washed it every day. 



OP. keep us all updated with continuous updates.

[grc]

If it makes you happy then that's great, but I don't think it's great to mislead those who know nothing about the subject.  Yes, the XIED's provide a false O₂ sensor input to the ECM to allow a richer mixture in closed loop.  That's all they do, and that is far from a real tune.  One good thing though, if you eventually decide you want a real tune you can always remove the XIED's and sell them to someone else for a few bucks.

Jerry

[hrdtail78]

The variable units have a small adjustment dial to change the air/fuel mixture. 

http://sales.nightrider.com/

Thanks, wasn't aware of that kind.

[mbrewer566]

I guess basically I am offering another workable option, that won't hurt anything, and can help with engine heat and lean condition.  You are right, this is not a true tune to squeeze every last horsepower and pound of torque out of the beast.  I had Steve Fullsac do that to my Road King, and it ran like a thoroughbred.  Now that I don't want to do wheelies or track time (wheelies I leave to my dirt bikes, and track is not for me), I'm happy to be able to make air cleaner and pipe changes and still get acceptable performance.

[dlaws01]

If you're happy, I'm happy for you.

X2    Why would anybody want to argue with that logic.  If he's happy with it, more power to him!  (metaphorically speaking)

[panz]

Just ordered a set today...vieds-10...the adjustable ones with ground, on sale for $119.00 plus 6.02 shipping. Hope they do what everyone that has them say they do. Stephen told me to set at 75%...catless pipes with standard SE mufflers. Thanks everyone for all the positive and some negatives points of view..ALL worthwhile.

[mbrewer566]

Just ordered a set today...vieds-10...the adjustable ones with ground, on sale for $119.00 plus 6.02 shipping. Hope they do what everyone that has them say they do. Stephen told me to set at 75%...catless pipes with standard SE mufflers. Thanks everyone for all the positive and some negatives points of view..ALL worthwhile.

I started at 75%, but thought it was a little rich, so moved back to 50% and it seems about right.

[Black denim]

Hey.
Can you take a picture of where you have mounted Xied so I can see how it looks.

Thanks!

[Chipster]

Great product!  I installed it on my 07 CVO Ultra in 10 minutes!  After install bike ran cooler no back firing popping etc.  produced did everything it said it would. V&H installed.  Again great product at a great price!!!

[mbrewer566]

Hey.
Can you take a picture of where you have mounted Xied so I can see how it looks.

Thanks!

There isn't really much to mount.  The Xied's are basically plug it units that fit exactly into the front and rear O2 sensors, and have connectors just like the ones on the bike.  You then wire tie them out of the way along other wiring or wherever you like.

[dartman]

Hey.
Can you take a picture of where you have mounted Xied so I can see how it looks.

Thanks!

Check out the install video   http://sales.nightrider.com/fl-xied-10.html

[Black denim]

Check out the install video   http://sales.nightrider.com/fl-xied-10.html

Many thanks

[FLTRI]

Always keep in mind, what we have is the best we know.

Once you ride a bike that's been recalibrated for the variables found with each and every bike...ie: injector outputs,  exhaust systems, a/c, etc...plug-and-play devices no longer look/feel so good.

JMHO,
Bob

[roger28310]

My next door neighbor has a 2005 bagger that he added 02 sensors to and now runs a set of those XIEDs on. His bike is nothing radical, just a bagger with a 95" kit, pipes, mild cams and air cleaner. He also really likes how his bike runs with the XIEDs, probably saved a fortune by not paying a dyno operator and buying a bunch of really expensive software and a dongle.

I have ridden his bike and honestly, it runs just as good as my brothers bike with an expensive tuner and several days at a dyno shop.

[panz]

Ok, just put on a set of vied-10, the adjustable type. I have a 2013 SE Ultra all stock except for a cat-less exhaust pipe. The reason I put these nightrider vieds on was to lessen the heat from the engine/exhaust. The bike runs fine prior to install of vieds with the cat-less pipe, no popping, good throttle response, and less heat from the exhaust. I was hoping to eliminate some heat from the engine by increasing the fuel mixture in the air/fuel ratio...in other words richen it up a little. I was told by Stephen from nightrider to set at 75...which I did. I rode bike for 50 miles and really noticed NO difference in heat being generated from the engine and the exhaust remained the same as it was before...now understand I took NO heat measurements of any kind...just my general feel on the right side of the bike. In fact, when I did some inner city stop and go it seemed as hot as it was before I put the catless pipe on...again just my opinion. I will give it some time, adjust some more and will let you know...but so far this product isn't doing what I expected it to do...AGAIN, it could just be ME!!

[FLTRI]

I have ridden his bike and honestly, it runs just as good as my brothers bike with an expensive tuner and several days at a dyno shop.

No offense, but the time period a bike is in a shop should not be an indicator of tune quality.
There is normally a noticeable difference between a completely tuned bike and one that has plug-and-play tune jobs.
IMO one needs back to back riding experiences on the same motorcycle to the objectively feel the difference.

Bob

[roger28310]

No offense, but the time period a bike is in a shop should not be an indicator of tune quality.
There is normally a noticeable difference between a completely tuned bike and one that has plug-and-play tune jobs.
IMO one needs back to back riding experiences on the same motorcycle to the objectively feel the difference.

Bob

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. A two day tune vs a two hour tune is what I would consider an indicator.

As for the piggy back devices, I don't really need or care to do back to back with and without test rides. Have ridden countless stock bikes and bikes with bad tunes to recognize a problem. For most bikes with simple upgrades like air cleaners, pipes and bolt in cams, the piggy backs will be just fine, especially if it's a bagger. These bikes aren't racers, a good tune with decent fuel mileage, that is fine for these bikes. Now for the lightened dyna with an over square motor, running 12:1+ compression on pump gas with a hand made exhaust that the materials alone cost more a new TTs system, then yes, that bike needs, deserves, must have a bunch of dyno time to squeeze everything out it. But for the typical bolt on/bolt in bagger, slapp a piggy back on and be done. Thats my two cents. But I get you do this for a living, yada, yada, yada. So you are right, every bike needs a full on dyno tune, and a pro who has tuned thousands of bikes can probably pull a tune from his file and get to a perfect tune within minutes vs days. I got it. I still don't think that every bike needs a full on tune.

[hrdtail78]

Most piggy backs don't work well with the stock close loop system. If its only an easy bagger build. Why go away from something that can help fuel milage, and how the bike can run with different fuels?

[FLTRI]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. A two day tune vs a two hour tune is what I would consider an indicator.

As for the piggy back devices, I don't really need or care to do back to back with and without test rides. Have ridden countless stock bikes and bikes with bad tunes to recognize a problem. For most bikes with simple upgrades like air cleaners, pipes and bolt in cams, the piggy backs will be just fine, especially if it's a bagger. These bikes aren't racers, a good tune with decent fuel mileage, that is fine for these bikes. Now for the lightened dyna with an over square motor, running 12:1+ compression on pump gas with a hand made exhaust that the materials alone cost more a new TTs system, then yes, that bike needs, deserves, must have a bunch of dyno time to squeeze everything out it. But for the typical bolt on/bolt in bagger, slapp a piggy back on and be done. Thats my two cents. But I get you do this for a living, yada, yada, yada. So you are right, every bike needs a full on dyno tune, and a pro who has tuned thousands of bikes can probably pull a tune from his file and get to a perfect tune within minutes vs days. I got it. I still don't think that every bike needs a full on tune.

Piggyback systems are for pre-closed loop, low compression builds...works fine.
As previously explained, there is a true performance/mileage loss to piggybacks with bikes that are closed loop.
As far as the comment about every bike needing a "full on tune"...no bike needs any better than to well enough to get to the destination...and back.

Since you have ridden many bikes that run well with good tunes and others that don't, you know there is a difference.

Does your bike deserve a great tune? You decide. Some buy $1000s of baubles and paint for their bikes and some want them to run their best.

Bob
PS- So if a tuner keeps an owner's bike for days it is assumed the owner will get a better tune than a tune from a tuner who did it in one day? How do you figure?

[Hilly13]

I would run TTS even on a completely stock bike to get rid of that nasty EPA tune and be able to program the ECM exactly for my bikes unique configuration. Im weird like that.
JMO

[05Train]

Ok, just put on a set of vied-10, the adjustable type. I have a 2013 SE Ultra all stock except for a cat-less exhaust pipe. The reason I put these nightrider vieds on was to lessen the heat from the engine/exhaust. The bike runs fine prior to install of vieds with the cat-less pipe, no popping, good throttle response, and less heat from the exhaust. I was hoping to eliminate some heat from the engine by increasing the fuel mixture in the air/fuel ratio...in other words richen it up a little. I was told by Stephen from nightrider to set at 75...which I did. I rode bike for 50 miles and really noticed NO difference in heat being generated from the engine and the exhaust remained the same as it was before...now understand I took NO heat measurements of any kind...just my general feel on the right side of the bike. In fact, when I did some inner city stop and go it seemed as hot as it was before I put the catless pipe on...again just my opinion. I will give it some time, adjust some more and will let you know...but so far this product isn't doing what I expected it to do...AGAIN, it could just be ME!!

No, it's the product.  You bought a couple of dollars worth of Radio Shack resistors that fool the ECM into adding a little fuel in the closed-loop areas of your map.  They do nothing for the overall Lambda table, VEs, or timing. 

There are no shortcuts.