Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Jswerve]

Have you ever heard the one about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?  That's what I think about when I read comments from some people who have had several Harley's that had significant problems, got less than stellar customer service from the MoCo, and then went right back and bought another one.

The single thing that helps Harley's reliability statistics is the fact that so many people bought, and still buy, Harley's just to be part of the crowd and then park them, only bringing them out a few times a year for the "let's meet at the bar and show off our ride" events.  Those folks often don't put enough miles on a bike to experience many of the failures the more serious riders experience.

I like the idea of selling the bike without the powertrain and letting the customer supply their own engine and trans.  Or at least offering the customer the option of several different choices from the factory, kind of like the heavy truck industry where you can choose engines, transmissions, and axles when you order your truck.  I wonder how many knowledgeable people would opt for the Harley engine and trans if they could order the bike with an S&S engine and Baker trans straight from the factory?

Jerry

Very well said Jerry. My boss drives me nuts. He has a 2007 Street glide with a built 95" motor that he hauls everywhere on a trailer. He's getting about 500 miles a year on it Lmao. Last year he pulled it to Pennsylvania to ride with a buddy and it blew up on him mid ride. Ridiculous.

Jesse

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

[Steve Cole]

I wonder how many S&S engines or Baker 7 speeds would fail and be reported on the internet if they were building 150K of them a year? While I do think that HD could do a better job with the 110, I do believe that there are far to many people that are very happy with the bikes that never come to the internet. That's what keeps people coming back. Let's face it if HD didn't do what they do, many of the aftermarket companies like S&S and Baker would not have any business and that includes my job as well.

[hdaliaconis]

Have you ever heard the one about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?  That's what I think about when I read comments from some people who have had several Harley's that had significant problems, got less than stellar customer service from the MoCo, and then went right back and bought another one.

The single thing that helps Harley's reliability statistics is the fact that so many people bought, and still buy, Harley's just to be part of the crowd and then park them, only bringing them out a few times a year for the "let's meet at the bar and show off our ride" events.  Those folks often don't put enough miles on a bike to experience many of the failures the more serious riders experience.

I like the idea of selling the bike without the powertrain and letting the customer supply their own engine and trans.  Or at least offering the customer the option of several different choices from the factory, kind of like the heavy truck industry where you can choose engines, transmissions, and axles when you order your truck.  I wonder how many knowledgeable people would opt for the Harley engine and trans if they could order the bike with an S&S engine and Baker trans straight from the factory?

Jerry

Based on all the mods I see after a "factory custom" is purchased, I would venture a guess that a lot would take that option.  Sounds like a business opportunity to me. 

Starting back with my old '50 panhead and up to the current '13 cvo I have never trusted the lifters.  As soon as one fails to pump up instantly on a cold start they go!  I am lucky that I can do that myself since I come from a generation that feels one "know" your bike and be able to do your own wrenching.  Not the typical rider these days.  JMO

[Rooster]

Jerry I think you and I know the answer to your question. I think those of us that put on lots of miles all want the same thing. Ride and ride more without wondering what or when it will break again.

[Skipper]

Jerry I think you and I know the answer to your question. I think those of us that put on lots of miles all want the same thing. Ride and ride more without wondering what or when it will break again.

Well said Rooster. Nothing to add. Topic closed.

Skipper

[Trapperdog]

Since we own Japanese, European and American bikes, I frequent the model specific forums of our bikes. What I read on these other forums is inversely proportionate to what I read and experience here in regards to engine and drive train failure. Obviously not a double blind study, but those experiencing catastrophic failure before 80K miles in other forums about equals those NOT experiencing catastrophic failure with the 110's here.
Charging and General Electric problems there generally outweigh those here though.
I realize I'm comparing apples to oranges, but as Terry (rooster) stated, many here would like a long distance bike capable of high milege without the fear of consistent failure or the continual replacement of mechanical parts to achieve that. And HD is just not providing that for the majority of us.

[Rooster]

 

[flyin-r]

Like a Bic lighter. A bike with a disposable engine. What a joke. Its the engine that we buy Harley for and its the heart that craps out. What a f'n joke.

Yep. Since they quit using lifter blocks and Timken bearings, etc., that's exactly what it is.

[HD Street Performance]

"Useful life" is the key term.
How many CVO 110s reach the EPA required useful life of 5/30000mi?
I would guess less that 20%
Reading:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/motorcycles.htm
More reading:
http://openjurist.org/598/f2d/228/harley-davidson-motor-company-inc-v-environmental-protection-agency
Looks like HD began fighting the "useful life" clause as early as 1978. Looks like that is where our dollars spent are allocated among other things. Not engineering.

"Section 207(a) of the Clean Air Act requires that manufacturers warrant "to the ultimate purchaser and each subsequent purchaser" that each new vehicle they produce is free from defects in materials and workmanship which cause such vehicle or engine To fail to conform with applicable regulations for its useful life. . . ."

Certainly a motor failure, especially in such large quantities, is a defect in material and/or workmanship right?

The CVO owners may consider a class action?

[twinotter]

HD must have worked (bribed) every official in the country to get an "expected engine life" to be 30,00 miles. On a $35000 + motorcycle!!!!  Come on!!!  It should run 75000 without ANY major work. HD has consistently degraded the parts in the never ending search for MORE PROFIT, while the HD buyers pay the bill!  I believe the Twin Cam platform with very minor tweaks in its early life showed the potential to be the best engine HD ever built.
They have destroyed that possibility now. Its time for the loyal HD fans to take a serious look at what they're actually buying. I can't believe that people keep buying the latest and greatest without actually thinking about the value for money spent. For me, its not there anymore. I'll keep my 01 until I can't ride anymore.  twinotter

[charles05663]

"Useful life" is the key term.
How many CVO 110s reach the EPA required useful life of 5/30000mi?
I would guess less that 20%
Reading:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/motorcycles.htm
More reading:
http://openjurist.org/598/f2d/228/harley-davidson-motor-company-inc-v-environmental-protection-agency
Looks like HD began fighting the "useful life" clause as early as 1978. Looks like that is where our dollars spent are allocated among other things. Not engineering.

"Section 207(a) of the Clean Air Act requires that manufacturers warrant "to the ultimate purchaser and each subsequent purchaser" that each new vehicle they produce is free from defects in materials and workmanship which cause such vehicle or engine To fail to conform with applicable regulations for its useful life. . . ."

Certainly a motor failure, especially in such large quantities, is a defect in material and/or workmanship right?

The CVO owners may consider a class action?

That is very interesting.  Of course, HD will be able to come back on any owner who mods their engine and claim it is the owners fault.  Pretty much like it is now.

 

[HD Street Performance]

Yes true however their sales force sells these "upgrades" right at the new motorcycle purchase, in many cases and never say a word about warranty being void, and rolls that work and parts right into the financed price. I am aware of the fine print. Their Screaming Eagle line of products is supposed to offer improvements, Really!

[charles05663]

Yes true however their sales force sells these "upgrades" right at the new motorcycle purchase, in many cases and never say a word about warranty being void, and rolls that work and parts right into the financed price. I am aware of the fine print. Their Screaming Eagle line of products is supposed to offer improvements, Really!

This really is a win-win for the MoCo, the dealer, and the ESP.

• The MoCo makes more money selling all of the "performance" accessories
• The dealer makes more money on the sale of the bike with the sale of the accessories and installation of the performance parts
• The MoCo/ESP can now deny the warranty claims because of modified engines using "genuine" MoCo performance parts that are not street legal
• The dealer makes a high service fee because MoCo/ESP deny the claim due to the modified engines

In the end, the customer wonders why it hurts to sit down after dealing the the MoCo/dealer/ESP.  I am not against companies making a profit.  It bothers me to see companies knowingly screw the customer and baffles me to see customers coming back time and time again to pay premium prices for defective equipment.

I am also not saying all dealers act this way.  I know that there are some dealerships that serve and are loyal to the customer and fight for the customer.  Those who have such dealers are blessed.

 

[HD Street Performance]

Its about time for someone to mention the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.
Haven't actually heard of customers having success threatening with that law. It's another case of HD VS Joe Bike Owner..