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[LouFXR4]

I found the source of a leak that has been slowly getting worse for a while. I have the service manual but can't find what this is or why it looks like bubble gum. Any thoughts, suggestions, encouragement or good jokes would be appreciated.
My bike is a 2000 FXR4 80 cu.in EVO with about 10,000 miles.

[Twolanerider]

If that is where I think it is this is an indent for a bolt that holds the chain tensioner.  Looks like it has broken through the casting.

[cahdbiker]

LouisXR4, I had the same situation on my 95 Heritage . It didn't leak, but I felt something like silicone back there in the same area of your picture and just left it alone. Sold at 62K miles. Wish I could talk my cousin into selling it back. CAHDBIKER

[LouFXR4]

Thanks for the input. I'm going to clean the underside of the bike today and hope there is a leak somewhere else not a crack in the casting. cahdbiker... It does feel like silicone by the way and I'm encouraged to hear you got 65,000 miles on your Heritage. I'll update when I know more.

[LouFXR4]

Ok, some new information and I believe it's good. While I was trusting my Chinese bike jack to hold, I got under the bike more than before and found a second silicone seal above the place that I think is leaking. I can assume now that it is a factory application and not a cheap repair as I feared.

I cleaned the area around the leak and will take a short ride to see what happens.

[Twolanerider]

Ok, some new information and I believe it's good. While I was trusting my Chinese bike jack to hold, I got under the bike more than before and found a second silicone seal above the place that I think is leaking. I can assume now that it is a factory application and not a cheap repair as I feared.

I cleaned the area around the leak and will take a short ride to see what happens.

Hard to tell for sure with the orientation and narrow field of view but I'm still suspecting that is now both of the bolt holes that hold the chain tensioner inside the primary.  Have seen the silicone plugs in them before too.  Hopefully you'll have nothing, or at least nothing expensive, to replace.  Maybe just a primary tear down and some re-application of an appropriate goop.

[cahdbiker]

LouFXR4, I think that your latest picture is the same as my heritage was except I never knew there were two places where silicone was applied. If you don't see any cracks I would go ahead and clean the area really well with brake cleaner ( wear goggles and don't get any on your black wrinkle finish or any painted surface for that matter) and then put some black silicone on top of what is there and let set for at least 48 hours before starting bike. I don't recommend removing the silicone that is already in place because as one of the other guys said the area that is silicone is probably an indent for the primary chain adjuster bolts. I bet that will do it. CAHDBIKER

[LouFXR4]

I left the bike on the jack overnight and the leak reappeared, photo enclosed. I will have to drain the primary to be able to apply the new silicone but my service manual and owners manual are no help as far as where the drain plug is. I'll have to post again to show where I think it is since I can only put one photo per posting.

[LouFXR4]

This is where I am guessing the drain is for the primary. There is no drain plug anywhere on the inner or outer primary. Is this the transmission drain plug as well as the primary or am I even close? Please remember I don't know anything about this and have tried using the owners manual and the Harley Service manual.

[LouFXR4]

Hard to tell for sure with the orientation and narrow field of view but I'm still suspecting that is now both of the bolt holes that hold the chain tensioner inside the primary.  Have seen the silicone plugs in them before too.  Hopefully you'll have nothing, or at least nothing expensive, to replace.  Maybe just a primary tear down and some re-application of an appropriate goop.

I am posting a wider shot of the lower silicon seal which is leaking, the upper seal is not visible but is a few inches directly above the lower one.

[Twolanerider]

I am posting a wider shot of the lower silicon seal which is leaking, the upper seal is not visible but is a few inches directly above the lower one.

That gives a much clearer picture of orientation and, more importantly, position.  That's a chain tensioner bolt hole.  Those are through drilled (sometimes, have seen them not) and tapped for the bolts or screws that hold the chain tensioner to the primary.  Unfortunately just smearing a little good over the outside won't fix it (says the guy who tried this a couple times many years ago).  But it's still a fix that will only cost you a primary gasket and a tube of sealant.  So, in Harley terms, it's a cheap job.   

Here's a breakdown of the primary housing so you'll have a better idea of what's there inside.  Red box drawn around the two holes you've noticed higher and lower that the chain tensioner attaches to.

[grc]

This is where I am guessing the drain is for the primary. There is no drain plug anywhere on the inner or outer primary. Is this the transmission drain plug as well as the primary or am I even close? Please remember I don't know anything about this and have tried using the owners manual and the Harley Service manual.

The magnetic drain plug for the primary should be in the outer primary cover below the clutch inspection cover.  See attachment (click to enlarge).

Jerry

[LouFXR4]

The magnetic drain plug for the primary should be in the outer primary cover below the clutch inspection cover.  See attachment (click to enlarge).

Jerry

Went out to the bike and there it was, thank you very much! Here is a crude job of showing what the official service manual from Harley illustrates. No number 1 anywhere on the illustration and the drain plug incorrectly identified as "3. Bolt (1) 5/16-18 x3 in.". It's not like I'm not trying to use the resources I have to pay for but this service manual is lacking. Looking for torque values for the outer primary, all I can find is "Chaincase bolts 18-21 ft.lbs." Do you know if that is correct for the outer primary? There is nothing for the inspection cover or the clutch cover, are there torque value on either?

[LouFXR4]

That gives a much clearer picture of orientation and, more importantly, position.  That's a chain tensioner bolt hole.  Those are through drilled (sometimes, have seen them not) and tapped for the bolts or screws that hold the chain tensioner to the primary.  Unfortunately just smearing a little good over the outside won't fix it (says the guy who tried this a couple times many years ago).  But it's still a fix that will only cost you a primary gasket and a tube of sealant.  So, in Harley terms, it's a cheap job.   

Here's a breakdown of the primary housing so you'll have a better idea of what's there inside.  Red box drawn around the two holes you've noticed higher and lower that the chain tensioner attaches to.

So, first of all thank you for taking time to help. If I can find the info I need for removing the primary then I will remove the chain tensioner, clean the old sealant from the hole or holes and then reassemble the works. Am I correct? I would like to do this myself and I do have the tools but do you suggest I let the dealer do the work? The dealers here in Birmingham are always busy and I can count on a wait of one to two weeks to get my bike back. The bike isn't due for any service at this time.

[Twolanerider]

Your torque spec for the cover bolts is correct.  Don't hesitate to trust your feel on those bolts if you "feel" threads starting to let go though.  At those low values inexpensive torque wrenches are notoriously inaccurate and it doesn't take much extra pull to ruin a bolt hole.  If you don't trust that you know the "feel" of proper torque for those small bolts definitely use your torque wrench.  But be careful and don't hesitate to doubt it if prudence seems to dictate.

The same guidance applied on the derby and clutch cover screws also.  There spec comes in inch pounds though.  So be sure and don't pull foot pounds.  Your spec on them, should you use it, is 84-108 inch pounds.  And, yes, on the force scale 12 inch pounds equals one foot pound .

[cahdbiker]

LouFXR4, if you have any doubts about the tightening of the primary chain tension bolts here is something I do when I don't trust my torque wrench or it seems like what I am being told is too much torque for a certain size bolt. Hopefully you have not removed the bolts yet. If that is true, clean the area around the bolt heads. Then mark the bolt head with a permanent marker and also put a mark next to it on the inner primary cover. When you are torqueing your tensioner bolts after you have reapplied the silicone keep checking until you hit the mark you made. If it feels tight or the torque wrench clicks at that point then you are all right. If it clicks sooner it could be that they were overtightened and that is what caused the leak. If you get to the mark and your torque wrench doesn't click use caution and go an 1/8 of a turn and see if it clicks. You can always retighten, but tapping and rethreading are a lot of work. On my 09 I checked the trans and engine drain bolts after the 1k service and neither was torqued properly. I had made a mark prior to touching them with a wrench and when I finally torqued them I had to turn about an 1/8th of a turn farther. I know that sounds trivial, but when I loosened them  prior to retorquing  they didn't feel tight at all. Seems like the extra 1/8 inch made a difference. Let us know how it turns out. CAHDBIKER.

[LouFXR4]

CAHDBIKER, thank you for that suggestion, I have not loosened anything yet and will definitely use your technique. I'm thinking my old torque wrench from the 1970's may need to be replaced with something a little more accurate. I'll post photos when I get into the primary and find out what the heck it all looks like from the inside. My job and the weather have me and bike work on hold for a little while. Cheers, Lou

[LouFXR4]

OK, I'm back and "What a long strange trip it's been". I went to one of our local Harley shops and took a photo of the leak with me. The service man (generous description) said it was a crappy repair done in the past by someone, certainly not Harley. I went to the service guys and the guy there was stumped too. Went back to service and he printed a couple of charts from the service manual but could not help. Went back to service and a new guy there said that no way was that a Harley glob of silicone. I was persistent and finally he went to ask the owner I guess, but he came back and said it was indeed a stock application of silicone and it would probably take at least three tries to fix. I bought the fluid and gaskets and tore into the primary.

I was physically sick (nice way of saying I crapped my pants). The primary chain adjuster was about to fall the efff off. I have been noticing a little bit of a clunk in the gears when I first start but there was no huge indication of the severity of the problem. I'll have to post a few photos but they show the play in the adjuster, the worn screws and the damage to the support bracket. The fluid was filthy but there was not a lot of metal on the magnetic plug

The torque on the primary chaincase cover bolts were all over the place when I was taking it off and I could not get close to the recommended torque when reassembling with a calibrated torque wrench. I also used about 40 ounces of Harley fluid in the primary to get to the correct level. Took a short ride today, shifts were smooth and I'll see what the repair looks like tomorrow.

All I can say is I had a 5000 mile check about 3000 miles ago which should have included a check of the chain and I will do every bit of work I can in the future. I will upgrade the tensioner when this one is done.

[LouFXR4]

A second look at the loose bracket.

[LouFXR4]

A look at the damage to the support bracket from the chain rubbing against it and probably normal wear on the shoe.

[LouFXR4]

The finished repair, chain free play about 5/8".

[LouFXR4]

These are the screws I removed, the top one came out without a screwdriver. No Locktite is visible. The new Harley screws now have locktite? on them already. I also used red silicone for the plug in the back.

[Twolanerider]

The silicone patch through the drilled/tapped hole was the norm then.  Can't even really blame recently-post-pubescent service staff for not believing that was factory work when it is so different from any contemporary standard they've ever been exposed to.  Glad you're getting it sorted.  The bigger shame isn't the guys now not recognizing something they've never seen that happened decades ago it's that the condition you described was obviously never checked during a service you paid for just a few thousand miles ago.

[LouFXR4]

Twolanerider, you are correct. I will do everything I can to learn my bike inside and out and not rely on someone else to protect my LIFE! They had replaced the primary chain case cover gasket at the same time the 5000 mile service was done because the primary appeared to have a leak. I suspect it was the plug all along. A 14 year old bike must seem ancient to a 20 or 30 year old Harley repair/service person. I guess documentation of the variables is lacking, it is not mentioned anywhere in the Harley service manual.

I do not blame the guys I visited this time, I'm not sure how many miles it would take for those screws to work loose,  but  I will ask for a more DETAILED report on any work done in the future and will triple check anything within my abilities. In the future I would like to KNOW they went down the check list and did ALL the work.   

The folks I spoke with agreed that if the support bracket broke loose it could have been catastrophic.

[wachuko]

Glad you got it sorted out. 

Another example of why, if you are not afraid to do so, it is a good idea to do the work yourself.  Not only do you have a better  understanding of the internals of your bike, but you make sure that the work is done correctly.  Using the workshop manual (great investment), youtube, and this forum as source of information will help you learn how to do all this.   

It is a great feeling to know that you prevented damage to the bike by catching that loose chain adjuster. 

[Twolanerider]

I will do everything I can to learn my bike inside and out and not rely on someone else to protect my LIFE!

That's something that is too often simply not recognized; that mistakes in service to a bike can have dire or even fatal consequences.  If a tech at a dealership leaves a snap ring off a mainshaft or forgets a cotter pin and leaves a castle nut loose on an old cars front wheel bearing the worst that likely happens is a wheel falls off or a tranny locks up and the car slids to the side of the road.  Likely traumatic, perhaps mildly injurious, maybe staining of one's underwear; but not much more than that.

On the bike, however, if a primary locks up at speed or an engine or a transmission seizes the result is very likely catastrophic.  Loss of control of the bike with the rider and potentially his family member riding with him becoming little more than the ballistic projectile ejected from the ex-machine cum paperweight now uncontrollably bouncing down the highway or ditch or other random pathway that geometry and force and motion have combined to dictate.

[LouFXR4]

On the bike, however, if a primary locks up at speed or an engine or a transmission seizes the result is very likely catastrophic.  Loss of control of the bike with the rider and potentially his family member riding with him becoming little more than the ballistic projectile ejected from the ex-machine cum paperweight now uncontrollably bouncing down the highway or ditch or other random pathway that geometry and force and motion have combined to dictate.

Twolanerider, you have a way with words and that is exactly the scenario I had envisioned.

[Twolanerider]

None of us ever wants to  be the bug... 

[LouFXR4]

None of us ever wants to  be the bug... 

Ain't that the truth! That may be my new mantra if it isn't copyrighted.

[mark]

I also used about 40 ounces of Harley fluid in the primary to get to the correct level.

Did you confirm this is the correct amount?  Not familiar with your bike, but If I recall correctly, my '03 SERK required 32 ounces and newer models 36 ounces.

[LouFXR4]

Mark, The FXR4 has the very last of the EVO engines and is a 5 speed. There were roughly 660 made in the yellow color and a little over 300 made in orange. The history of the FXR's is pretty interesting but in short it has a beast of a frame and is considered by some to be one of the best handling bikes made by HD. The owners manual specifies 38.0 to 44.0 ounces for the primary chaincase.

[mark]

Ok. Didn't know if that was the correct amount.  Sometimes you can get bad info at the Harley shop. My first HD was a '98 Evo tourer and I thought the primary held 32 oz....but that's just me trying to recall an old memory.  Hope you resolved the problem.