Post by: drgmis16 on April 01, 2018, 10:24:11 PM
Post by: jdk20723 on April 02, 2018, 08:03:38 AM
https://www.zippersperformance.com/index.php/downloads/dl/file/id/57/product/0/technical_doc_oiling_valve_train_issues_solutions.pdf
Post by: grc on April 02, 2018, 08:31:58 AM
Bike was in the shop and was given a loaner till it was repaired. The loaner was a 2016 SE Street Glide. Noticed going down the Interstate that the oil pressure was about 38 psi. When swapped bikes, my oil pressure going down the same Interstate, the oil pressure was around 30 psi and dipping to 26 psi on occasion. The oil pressure sender probably just as good as the volt meter for accuracy. Inquired at the dealership who contacted Milwaukee and was told that this is okay, could be 25 to 32 psi. :confused5: The service manual states that normal oil pressure should be 30 to 38 psi at 2000 rpm with oil temperature of 230F. What are other folks reading for oil pressure going down an interstate? Problem or not? Same engine but in different frames, one would think that the oil pressure should be somewhat closer than this.
As you already know, the official specification is 30 - 38 psi @ 2000 rpm and 230°F oil temperature. Either the person at the dealership lied to you about the call to H-D, or he talked to someone who fed him some BS.
I can't tell from your post what model and year bike you're talking about (you might want to add that info to your profile), but assuming you're talking about an earlier model Twin Cam what you're seeing could be the first signs of excessive oil pump wear or a sticking pressure relief valve. Of course the first thing to check is the gauge itself, and you do that by having a calibrated mechanics gauge temporarily installed and observing it while riding. The best way is by using a T fitting to allow the stock gauge to continue working so you can make direct comparisons.
I had the same issue on my 2005. When I installed a new cam plate and oil pump to upgrade to hydraulic tensioners, my operating oil pressure returned to the normal range. The old pump didn't exhibit obvious/serious wear or damage, but the pressure relief valve was sticking a bit.
Jerry
Post by: Swbike on April 02, 2018, 08:54:49 PM
Post by: 1roadking on April 02, 2018, 09:36:37 PM
Post by: drgmis16 on April 02, 2018, 09:58:41 PM
Post by: skratch on April 03, 2018, 01:43:36 PM
that'll make your sphincter pucker for sure. after stopping and cooling down, pressure was back up. oil light never came on, but found out after that that the oil pressure would go down every time it got hot. not usually that much, but it would drop substantially. got the old, 'they all do that' from the dealer, but had that bike for 4 years and never had any engine problem, so apparently it was getting enough oil. i did notice that if i used redline 20w-60, the oil pressure would stay higher longer.
Post by: grc on April 03, 2018, 02:07:30 PM
just wait until you're 3 hrs into a 6 hr interstate ride on a 95* day and you happen to look over at your gauge and it looks like it's reading about 5psi :'(
that'll make your sphincter pucker for sure. after stopping and cooling down, pressure was back up. oil light never came on, but found out after that that the oil pressure would go down every time it got hot. not usually that much, but it would drop substantially. got the old, 'they all do that' from the dealer, but had that bike for 4 years and never had any engine problem, so apparently it was getting enough oil. i did notice that if i used redline 20w-60, the oil pressure would stay higher longer.
While what you've indicated is true for pressure at idle, it SHOULD NOT be true at cruising speed on the highway. The only time my bike's pressure dropped when hot at cruise speed was when my original pump and relief valve started heading south. A new pump and cam plate restored the oil pressure, and even on high 90's days the pressure never dropped below 30 psi when running over 2000 rpm. It did and still does drop at idle, down to about 5 psi on the gauge with ambient temps in the 90's. A higher capacity oil cooler, especially with fan assist, should help that situation.
Jerry
Post by: Rooster on April 03, 2018, 07:39:35 PM
Post by: drgmis16 on April 03, 2018, 07:53:46 PM
Post by: grc on April 03, 2018, 09:24:56 PM
Since the engine and motorcycle is still under warranty, the dealership stated that they had to use the HD Syn3 oil. Did not think to ask what type of oil was in the Street Glide that am using for comparison. Wondering if there is a big difference in pressures between synthetic and regular? This might be the response that get from Milwaukee, if they respond at all that is.
The dealership lied to you, but that's not exactly unusual. You can use any motor oil you want that meets current specifications. There's this little thing called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 (federal law) that specifically states they can't make you use their brand of maintenance products to maintain warranty coverage, UNLESS they provide those products free of charge.
If the Street Glide you were riding was a CVO, it had SYN-3 in it from the factory. All CVO's come with SYN-3, but it is not required. You can run non-synthetic if you want, but synthetics do provide more protection at very high temperatures. If you want to see if a higher viscosity oil makes a difference in your oil pressure, try a straight 60 weight as long as you only ride in hot weather. Your owner manual has the relevant information as to the acceptable viscosity for various ambient temperature ranges. But your problem is not the oil. As you noted in your first post, the exact same engine but in a Street Glide maintained proper pressure where your's does not.
Jerry
Post by: Texas 103 on April 04, 2018, 09:56:19 AM
The dealership lied to you, but that's not exactly unusual. You can use any motor oil you want that meets current specifications. There's this little thing called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975 (federal law) that specifically states they can't make you use their brand of maintenance products to maintain warranty coverage, UNLESS they provide those products free of charge.
If the Street Glide you were riding was a CVO, it had SYN-3 in it from the factory. All CVO's come with SYN-3, but it is not required. You can run non-synthetic if you want, but synthetics do provide more protection at very high temperatures. If you want to see if a higher viscosity oil makes a difference in your oil pressure, try a straight 60 weight as long as you only ride in hot weather. Your owner manual has the relevant information as to the acceptable viscosity for various ambient temperature ranges. But your problem is not the oil. As you noted in your first post, the exact same engine but in a Street Glide maintained proper pressure where your's does not.
Jerry
Slight correction Jerry...SIN-3!
Post by: grc on April 04, 2018, 04:52:13 PM
Slight correction Jerry...SIN 3!
;D I stand corrected.
Jerry
Post by: drgmis16 on April 04, 2018, 06:38:10 PM
Read the manual again and it states that SYN-3 is "preferred".
1roadking; did the pressure reading change following the installation of the 117 kit?
Post by: 1roadking on April 04, 2018, 08:47:14 PM
Post by: fastfreddy on April 04, 2018, 10:17:25 PM
Post by: Texas 103 on April 05, 2018, 01:16:01 PM
i got same bike 16 SERGU, and my OP was reading 30 psi at 2200 RPM today, and best i can remember from last season on a warm/hot day 26/27 psi rolling down the highway. its lower than my 13 witch never dropped below 15 @ hot idle and run 36ish plus on the highway. dont think its any thing to worry about :nixweiss:
X-2 , mine is 10-11 hot idle , 38-40 @ 3000 hot.
Post by: drgmis16 on April 15, 2018, 06:14:51 PM
Post by: grc on April 15, 2018, 07:32:02 PM
The sending unit is only half of the equation. The other half is the actual gauge, and that can also have an error. There should be a test for the gauge itself, using a known resistance across the wiring terminals for the sending unit. I don't have a shop manual for a late model bike, so I can't tell you if Harley has such a test. As far as I'm concerned a 4 psi error when compared to a calibrated mechanical gauge is excessive. Knowing how Harley does things however, I imagine they will say it meets their specifications and tolerances.
Jerry
Post by: Twolanerider on April 15, 2018, 10:06:20 PM
That being so we have to remember that production tolerances and variances exist. You've used a (hopefully) good mechanical gauge to know what the engine is actually producing. You know what your gauge is reporting at that level of production. So you know what to watch for on your gauge on your bike.
So long as the bike's operations keep the gauge at your known to be good range you're ok. If pressure falls below it's time to get things looked at (again).
Post by: ultrafxr on April 16, 2018, 08:31:50 AM
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Post by: grc on April 16, 2018, 02:07:57 PM
Those of us with new bikes don’t have to worry about this. Our reading just says OK or check oil. I guess the moco got tired of answering questions about their sucky gauges and senders and just figured that ignorance is bliss.
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That, plus they saved more than a few bucks on each bike. The cheap sending units become much cheaper when they only have to be on or off. Check the retail prices for the sending unit on your bike and compare to the price for the sending unit on the earlier bikes ($12 versus $35).
Jerry
Post by: Rooster on April 16, 2018, 03:00:12 PM
Post by: grc on April 16, 2018, 04:44:44 PM
Usually when the light comes on it's to late :o
True. The idiot lights don't come on until oil pressure is basically less than 2 psi. If you're riding down the highway and your oil pressure is 3 or 4 psi, the light doesn't come on. So if you're riding down the highway and the actual pressure is 4 psi for instance, the engine is not getting anything close to the correct amount of oil in any of the critical areas, but you won't know that until something fails.
I remember hearing a rumor that H-D was going to offer the ability to revert to the old method with a software change. If they do that, then you'd still have to buy the old style sending unit but it would be worth it in my opinion.
Jerry