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Author Topic: Springs / Lifters?  (Read 3021 times)

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Dan_Lockwood

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Springs / Lifters?
« on: August 31, 2018, 07:01:54 AM »

With all the talk about the lifters going south and almost all of the people in the know, say it's the unneeded over tension of the springs that is the root cause of all the lifters.

Now that still doesn't negate the fact that there are some really crappy lifters being use by the mother ship.

So all everyone suggests is this brand or that brand of new lifters; never have I specifically read to fix the issue you need to ALSO change out the springs.

I'll probably be doing my lifters this winter on my '09 SERG.  I just rolled over 20k miles on our trip to ES this past June.  So when I change out the lifters, I'll probably just put in a set of Rocker Lockers just to be safe; won't hurt in my opinion.

While I'm that deep into the heads, changing out the springs would not be a stretch for me to do.  But what do I do?  I "may" put in a new cam, but it would be just a very mild update over the stock SE255 stock cam.

Over my many years of being a gearhead, but mainly in the auto genre, Bee Hive springs have appeared to be the way to go.  Less harmonics due to the shape of the wire and narrowing diameter at the top of the spring.  They also could provide good tension.

BUT... That does not seem to be the case in Harleys though.  They are still very popular in the auto arena.

S&S lifters and what springs would be a good combination for my preventative maintenance?

I'm sure this has been discussed, but I just don't remember it anywhere.

Thanks.
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Dan

2009 SERG Orange / Black
Board Track Racer Project, Ultima 113"/6spd
2021 Coleman UT400 Side By Side

MCE

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2018, 08:17:14 PM »

I've been using AV&V springs and just recently started buying Manleys (I really like Manley valves
so I'm starting to use their springs too. What type of springs are on it now? (Beehive or dual)

The factory lifters are made in Mexifornia. So they're not going to last like some decent USA made
ones. (S&S lifters or Johnson are very good imo).

Need more information.

The stock 255 cams are not very good either, but for different reasons.

 
 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 08:19:26 PM by MCE Performance »
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prodrag1320

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2018, 07:38:43 AM »

go with S&S standard lifters & kibblewhite springs,we use a lot of both,never had problems with either.both priced very nice too

MCE

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2018, 10:08:39 AM »

go with S&S standard lifters & kibblewhite springs,we use a lot of both,never had problems with either.both priced very nice too

+1 Factory 110 heads have too much spring seat pressure. Couple that with sub-par lifters and
you have a recipe for failure.

Good beehive springs and S&S lifters will make for a long lasting combination.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 10:21:41 AM by MCE Performance »
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Dan_Lockwood

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2018, 02:06:23 PM »

My '09 SERG is a bone stock 110" with just a TTS Mastertune from Steve for 2" Fullsac baffles.  I have 2.5" Fullsac now, but did not "seem" to lose anything in switching from 2" to 2.5".  I sure I did, but my seat of the pants dyno does not feel it.  I still get 45 to 47 mpg with just the two of us without the trailer.

I also swapped out the 32t main front drive sprocket to a 30t.  I did the rear swingarm elongation mod to the axle slot with welded reinforcements.  This is probably the BEST mod I've done to the bike.

My only reason for asking about the springs in conjunction with a lifter change out was simple, why do just lifters if the main reason they fail is to high of valve seat spring pressure.  Again I'm not ruling out crappy lifters from the MOCO, just a general statement.

I can pressurize the cylinders and pop the springs without pulling the heads, but I guess if I'm that far into it, pulling the heads and replacing head gaskets would be a good thing to do.

But when you relieve head bolt torque, do I need to go further and replace the base gaskets/O-rings?

Not sure how much more info I can offer.  20k miles, normal oil changes/filters etc, no burnouts or wheelies etc.

So you're recommending bee hive springs?  Like I said in the auto genre, they seem tp be a more popular upgrade.

I'm just thinking that if with a stock SE255, an upgrade to a slightly hotter cam that can function on stock compression would be a good thing to invest in.  I've also read here, but cannot remember, which cams work well AND do not add to the valve train noise.  Like ramp speeds too excessive etc.

Thanks again for the advice and suggestions.
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Dan

2009 SERG Orange / Black
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2018, 04:31:22 PM »

Just talking high level not specifically..
The stock springs are 155# on the seat and that is not too high. At .555 lift they are at 425# over the nose, still reasonable. The flat damper design leaves a bit to be desired. Beehives can break. The result can be catastrophic as compared to a dual or conical. They also have a lower spring rate with high preload. Translation too much seat pressure with stock stem protrusion. I like conicals or use the stock CVO springs. The cam is contributing to the issue. It has very fast lift and close rates. You hear the noise? At those times the valve is lofting and the roller momentarily loses contact with the lobe. Hammers hydraulic rollers. The best of them just last a bit longer, no magic silver bullet.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 05:43:58 PM by HD Street Performance »
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johnsachs

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2018, 05:37:08 PM »

I have NO issues with the CVO SE springs. No way excessive pressure. They work fine. If you're doing valve and seat work, you can set the pressure to your liking. I don't recommend B-Hive springs any longer.
John
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 05:40:48 PM by johnsachs »
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2018, 05:47:22 PM »

As always, good advice and economy of words
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Dan_Lockwood

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2018, 02:24:14 PM »

I want to thank everyone for the information and opinions from personal experiences.

Without going back through about a zillion threads, what is one of the better cams to replace my stock SE-255's with that will give me a slight bump, but more importantly allow for a smoother less noisy cam/lifter contact?

I will be doing stock compression on the 110", but Rocker Lockers, stock push rods, cams and inner cam bearings.

I'm all eyes for suggestions, thanks.

Sorry to take the fork in the road and switch gears so to speak on the cam recommendations.

Thanks in advance.

Hope you all had a great Labor Day weekend.
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Dan

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SHRADER

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2018, 02:56:30 PM »

I just did almost exactly what you are doing. I have a 110 with stock heads with decatted stock headpipe and 2 inch fullsac cores in stock cans. Last fall I added Rocker Lockers and S&S lifters and a couple of weeks ago I added a Kuryakyn 24D cam and a tune. I had been using the standard Fullsac download and TTS prior to adding the cam.

I absolutely could not be happier with the 24D. I lost no bottom end and gained significantly everywhere.

I know enough about all things that can be calibrated to know not to bet the farm on one particular dyno, I work in the testing and calibration industry, so don't take my numbers as an absolute, but suffice to say the bike feels like a totally different machine. I only wish I had not waited so long to install the cams....

Here is a link

https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=116365.0
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YELLOWBIRD

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2018, 07:15:54 PM »


When I had my 110" motor, I had Andrews 54H cam, Fullsac X pipe, 2.25 Baffles, and Steve's Map.

It ran pretty damn good.



YB
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2018, 09:25:20 PM »

I have your combo Yellowbird.
If doing it today I would go to a TTS 150 or Cyclerama 570a. Even the TTS 100 if just a stock replacement is the goal. Big early torque. Less stress on the valve train.
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Dan_Lockwood

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2018, 10:33:00 AM »

Thanks guys.

So these past few cam recommendations would result in a quiet valve train, or at least as quiet as the stock SE-255?

I'm not against a bit of added performance.  I think a couple years ago I read about the Kuryakyn 24D and it was pretty nice.  I've also heard some good reports on the TTS cams.

Is the TTS 100 about a direct replacement for the SE-255 spec wise?  A bit more oomph would be nice as long as it works well with the stock compression of the 110".  I realize that the cam will vary compression based on valve timing, but measured compression being somewhat less than the 10.5 everyone seems to taught as the minimum for most Stage II type cams.

Thanks again.
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Dan

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JKM

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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2018, 11:42:20 AM »

While you're into the heads for springs, consider having them cleaned up a little.  Another issue some have had is valve guides dropping.  Considering it's an 09, might not hurt to have those changed out while you're at it.
Also with the heads off, why not add a little more compression to go with an upgraded cam. 
Lots of choices depending on riding style and what you're looking to achieve, but one option is the S&S 570 with compression set to around 10:1 is a middle of the road option that may suit what you're looking for.

recent thread on valve seal dropping
https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=116658.0
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Re: Springs / Lifters?
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2018, 02:34:18 PM »

Thanks guys.

So these past few cam recommendations would result in a quiet valve train, or at least as quiet as the stock SE-255?

I'm not against a bit of added performance.  I think a couple years ago I read about the Kuryakyn 24D and it was pretty nice.  I've also heard some good reports on the TTS cams.

Is the TTS 100 about a direct replacement for the SE-255 spec wise?  A bit more oomph would be nice as long as it works well with the stock compression of the 110".  I realize that the cam will vary compression based on valve timing, but measured compression being somewhat less than the 10.5 everyone seems to taught as the minimum for most Stage II type cams.

Thanks again.

I can say that the 24Ds are more quiet than the 255 cams as far as the rattle, although after the rocker lockers the 255 was pretty quiet. I do get a little thottlebody cluck through the heavy breather with the 24D that was not there with the 255 but its not terrible or anything.
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2014 SERK Orange Crush-Fullsac cores and screens, Decatted Headpipe, TTS Mastertune, Kury 24D, Custom Dynamic Signals, Memphis Fairing, HBRR 117R 123HP/137TQ
2004 SEEG  Huckleberry- 113 HP/115 TQ

Charter Member and National Vice President Hillbilly Rocket Riders
Charter Member and National President CVO Harley Critter Gawking Society
National President and Founder of WRENCH We Ride Everywhere Nomatter Cold or Hot
Zen Master of Pondering
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