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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: mjb765 on August 07, 2011, 02:39:38 PM
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OH NO---Not another engine heat post--hear me out before you quit reading. I need an opinion and around here I know I will get a few...2011 SESG with an 09 catless headpipe, Rinehart slip-ons and a Revolution Performance EMS. Just switched over to straight 50 wt oil to try to quiet the motor a bit. 85 degrees oustisde and I just went for a 1/2 hr ride on the highway between 70-80 mph with no traffic at all. Got off and checked the oil temp at the dipstick and got 258 degrees. seems kind of hot to me. Last week I spoke to the guys at Rev Perf and found that when they program an ECM they set the AFR to about 14.1 so that it maintains some decent gas mileage.
This brings me to my questions-----258 degrees seems kind of hot--correct? And if I remeber correctly my last bike with the TTS the AFR was around 13.5 which would make things run richer--and cooler. OK--time for all of your opinions........
Thanks for letting me rant.......
Mike
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OH NO---Not another engine heat post--hear me out before you quit reading. I need an opinion and around here I know I will get a few...2011 SESG with an 09 catless headpipe, Rinehart slip-ons and a Revolution Performance EMS. Just switched over to straight 50 wt oil to try to quiet the motor a bit. 85 degrees oustisde and I just went for a 1/2 hr ride on the highway between 70-80 mph with no traffic at all. Got off and checked the oil temp at the dipstick and got 258 degrees. seems kind of hot to me. Last week I spoke to the guys at Rev Perf and found that when they program an ECM they set the AFR to about 14.1 so that it maintains some decent gas mileage.
This brings me to my questions-----258 degrees seems kind of hot--correct? And if I remeber correctly my last bike with the TTS the AFR was around 13.5 which would make things run richer--and cooler. OK--time for all of your opinions........
Thanks for letting me rant.......
Mike
My question is why would you run straight 50 wt. oil in your bike?
Dino or synthetic and what brand?
:nixweiss: :nixweiss:
SBB
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My question is why would you run straight 50 wt. oil in your bike?
Dino or synthetic and what brand?
:nixweiss: :nixweiss:
SBB
Been hearing a lot of recommendations to run it to try to quiet the motor a bit--and it did get a little better. Harley SAE 50 Dino. I even checked the service maunal at it says for over 60 degrees ambient temp you can run it. Definitely hot enough around here lately to try it.
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[quote author=mjb765 link=topic=65483.msg914950#msg914950 date=13127433 n hearing a lot of recommendations to run it to try to quiet the motor a bit--and it did get a little better. Harley SAE 50 Dino. I even checked the service maunal at it says for over 60 degrees ambient temp you can run it. Definitely hot enough around here lately to try it.
[/quote]Curious what brand oil were you running before you changed to the Harley SAE 50 Dino oil? Seems to me that if your engine or upper valve train area is that loud maybe there is some mechanical problem that no oil is going to correct... :nixweiss:
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258 degrees is not all that hot, from my limited experience on the 110. I've seen mine at 268, running 20W50 Redline Synthetic. This is reading it on the LCD dipstick on a 90 degree day, two up, loaded.
I've read the same things about straight 50W Dino oil, but I'm sticking with the 20W50 Synthetic. I just don't trust the Dino oil to hold up as well to the hot temps, and it breaks down faster, particularly when it gets really hot. That's a fact. Whether it gets hot enough to break down is a matter for debate, but I prefer the insurance of Synthetic in the air cooled motor.
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I've had several people listen to it and all I get is the standard answer--yeah they are all that noisey. I was running 20/50 Redline before and I was going to go to 20/60 and see if that helps, but figured I would try this first. I was surprised to see it listed in the specs in the manual. It did help with the noise, but the temps seem kind of high to me. Does anybody have a dyno printout with the AFR reading at the bottom? I think 14.1 is still too lean.
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13.5 accross the board would help cool the motor some...how much...I'm not sure that's easily quantified. 14.7 is the "ideal" A/F ratio for complete combustion, but that's definitely too lean for these motors. 14:1 is not unreasonable, IMO.
I don't know for sure, but I think the TTS canned map is set up around the 14:1 number.
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Ask Carl Hubbard. I think he is a dino oil fan. :2vrolijk_21:
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Boys O Boys....I would NOT run dino oil in an engine that the factory says synthetic. The oil temp you read is NOT the max surface temp the oil will see. These 110s run HOT and dino oil can't take the high temp that a syn can.
Do yourself a favor and get syn oil back in.
And yeah, 110s are noisey, especially after they heat up.
And, clean the oil cooler fins, I let mine get the bottom two rows clogged with road grit/dirt....cleaned them out and oil temp peaks are down 5-10 degrees.
T
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Been hearing a lot of recommendations to run it to try to quiet the motor a bit--and it did get a little better. Harley SAE 50 Dino. I even checked the service maunal at it says for over 60 degrees ambient temp you can run it. Definitely hot enough around here lately to try it.
Mike I have to wonder.
You changed from the Fullsac to Rinehart's for a louder sound but now your changing oil to make the motor quiet.
110's are noisy and if the Redline doesn't give you what your looking for then nothing else will.
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Mike I have to wonder.
You changed from the Fullsac to Rinehart's for a louder sound but now your changing oil to make the motor quiet.
110's are noisy and if the Redline doesn't give you what your looking for then nothing else will.
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Funny Chip.....I could just drain all the oil out and I'm sure it will get even louder----for a short period of time :huepfenlol2:
I will run this for a little while and then I will put the Redline 20/60 in.
Now back on topic---the original issue was that I thought it was running too hot. I may call Rev Perf and see about sending the ECM back and having them richen up the target AFR. My '10 SESG didn't run as hot as the '11. But I also remember my '10 running around 13.5 AFR when it was dyno'ed.
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then I will put the Redline 20/60 in.
Now your on the right track.
SBB
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Now your on the right track.
SBB
On the right track....not really sure since I was looking to see if my oil temp was too high since I feel this thing is running too hot. Going back to the 20/60 is not going to lower oil temps--in fact it may run a little hotter......yes--the oil can take the higher temp since it's synthetic, but that wasn't really the issue.
My original question was looking to see what a good target AFR would be so that I could cool this bike down a bit. This one seems to run waaay hotter than my 2010 and the only difference is the headpipe and the tuner.
Did you get your bike dyno'ed???? Did they give you the printout with the AFR's on the bottom?? Just curious what you are running at.
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The Afr graph at the bottom of the dyno sheet only tells you what your AFR is@ WOT.
So you need to know what your Afr is at cruise.
running a tts canned map with no tuning,who knows what your actual afr was. It would have a 14:7. target since it would be closed loop.
if you have an actual cruise afr of 14.1now with R/P that should be rich en ought. Kinda hard to tell your actual afr unless you have it checked. With your symptoms, I doubt you have 14:1 actual. If you are getting really good fuel mileage, it is leaner than 14:1
your oil.....run straight 60 dino if you want. Running one qt of straight 70 and two qts of straight 60 in my 120.
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MJ, you can monitor your AFR in real time or in recorded sessions with that Twin Tec II scan tool. Unlike a lot of dyno tunes that set a flat AFR everywhere your EMS will have the AFR varied for different engine conditions. That is a far better method for real world riding. Play with the tool a bit and you'll know both what you've got and where/when you've got it.
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MJ, you can monitor your AFR in real time or in recorded sessions with that Twin Tec II scan tool. Unlike a lot of dyno tunes that set a flat AFR everywhere your EMS will have the AFR varied for different engine conditions. That is a far better method for real world riding. Play with the tool a bit and you'll know both what you've got and where/when you've got it.
We I spoke with Josh at Rev Perf he mentioned that the Twin Tec may not give accurate readings due to something they do to the ECM. I'm not sure I understand what that would be, but the twin tech said approx 13.5 and my AFR meter was reading over 14 using the meters separate O2 sensor. So i'm not sure what to believe. Based on Josh's explanation and the fact that the eng is running hot, I'm thinking the over 14 reading would be more accurate. Also Josh said they set the ECM to maintain a 14.1 AFR.
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I have learned over the years and finally getting rid of the oil temp dip stick that the temp of the oil on a CVO is enough to drive you crazy if you focus on it. Now I just drive it and change it out on the specific intervals. Much less Stress!! All I know is it gets HOT!!
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Been hearing a lot of recommendations to run it to try to quiet the motor a bit--and it did get a little better. Harley SAE 50 Dino. I even checked the service maunal at it says for over 60 degrees ambient temp you can run it. Definitely hot enough around here lately to try it.
20-60 Redline...
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20-60 Redline...
That's next.....
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We I spoke with Josh at Rev Perf he mentioned that the Twin Tec may not give accurate readings due to something they do to the ECM. I'm not sure I understand what that would be, but the twin tech said approx 13.5 and my AFR meter was reading over 14 using the meters separate O2 sensor. So i'm not sure what to believe. Based on Josh's explanation and the fact that the eng is running hot, I'm thinking the over 14 reading would be more accurate. Also Josh said they set the ECM to maintain a 14.1 AFR.
huh...... new news
Now will have to do some comparative measures on mine when the opportunity presents.
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We I spoke with Josh at Rev Perf he mentioned that the Twin Tec may not give accurate readings due to something they do to the ECM. I'm not sure I understand what that would be, but the twin tech said approx 13.5 and my AFR meter was reading over 14 using the meters separate O2 sensor. So i'm not sure what to believe. Based on Josh's explanation and the fact that the eng is running hot, I'm thinking the over 14 reading would be more accurate. Also Josh said they set the ECM to maintain a 14.1 AFR.
Follow up thought. Wonder if they have a correction factor?
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Follow up thought. Wonder if they have a correction factor?
He didn't mention that--but I never asked either. He just told me the Twin Tech wouldn't be a good way to measure AFR.
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He didn't mention that--but I never asked either. He just told me the Twin Tech wouldn't be a good way to measure AFR.
That's interesting. Twin Tec is going to get it's data from the ECM. So their module is cooking the books in some way. There's got to be a correction factor of some kind either in their module's code or in the code they add to the ECM. So long as it's all corrected for in the process it makes no difference to end use. Just an interesting factor of the device.
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Hello Mike,
Stop beating yourself up over this. 258 deg at the dipstick on an 85 deg. day is not a cause for concern.
A few things to consider;
The dipstick temp gauge is reading the oil at a location where the oil is returning to the crankcase from the engine, therefore it will be at it's highest temperature.
The oil then flows forward through the serpentine channels in the oil pan, which provides some cooling to the front of the pan where it's picked up by the oil pump.
It then flows to a thermostatic valve which send the oil to the oil cooler if the oil is above 200 deg, then back through the oil filter and then to the top and bottom ends of the engine.
So the engine is seeing oil that's much cooler than the dipstick reading.
Since these motors are air cooled, oil temps will rise 1 to 1 with a rise in ambient temperatures, other conditions being equal.
I do suggest using a quality synthetic oil. Among it's many benefits, much better performance at higher temperatures.
We need to meet at "The Maples" to discuss this and other important issues of the day!
Best wishes,
Tom P.
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I agree. The oil is measured when it returns. It has picked up heat and gives kind of a inaccurate reading. It is that hot right at the stick but when it is moving through the engine, it gets cooled off some. Running too thick of oil robs you of horsepower also. Ever try to turn a oil pump and prime a engine, as soon as it starts to pick up oil, it gets very hard to turn. The thicker oil makes it even harder. I have done a lot of race car engines and there is a difference in the viscosity of oil. Some oils actually made more power. The synthetics will help with the heat problem as far as not breaking down. Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.
Ray
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I'm slightly confused here--thought the point of running a multi-weight oil (20/50, 20/60, whatever) was that when temps are cooler, the oil viscosity is at the lower number (20) and when hotter the viscosity is at the higher number. If that's true, why would we want to use a single-weight oil, since it can't adapt to the different temps? And why use dino oil at all, since it is more likely to break down under heat than a good quality synthetic of the same weight?
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I'm slightly confused here--thought the point of running a multi-weight oil (20/50, 20/60, whatever) was that when temps are cooler, the oil viscosity is at the lower number (20) and when hotter the viscosity is at the higher number. If that's true, why would we want to use a single-weight oil, since it can't adapt to the different temps? And why use dino oil at all, since it is more likely to break down under heat than a good quality synthetic of the same weight?
That's not quite true...for example, in a 20w50 oil, the "50" comes from measuring it's flow at 212 degrees F. The "20" is the flow when the oil is cold, as in when it is sitting in the oil pan in a cold engine with the ambient air temp also cold. It allows the engine to turn over more easily at colder temps. It is not a 20 weight oil any given temp other than when completely cold. So, with a 20W50 oil (or 20W60) you get all the benefits of better flow when the engine is cold for easier starting, easier intitial flow characteristics through the engine when first cranked, PLUS the benefits of a 50W oil when it gets hot. So, you can think of the "W" as the winter variable in 20W50...easier to pour (flow) out of a container at say 20 degrees F than would be a straight 50W oil. IMO, you get the best of all worlds by using a multivicosity oil...the advantages of both extremes in temperature. I'm not a chemical engineer, but in my thinking, I'd much rather have a synthetic oil, which I know will withstand higher temperatures without beginning the breakdown process. Dino oils begin this process at a lower temp. I choose synthetics for my bike because they can withstand higher operating temperatures better, plus they hold up longer, resulting in longer change intervals. In my car, I still run high quality Dino oil, as the operating temps are relatively contstant on the high end. Most single weight oils are only run in things like lawn mowers, as it is assumed that they will be operated when the ambient air temps are warmer. And in racing applications, they still run single weight, for the most part.
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That's interesting. Twin Tec is going to get it's data from the ECM. So their module is cooking the books in some way. There's got to be a correction factor of some kind either in their module's code or in the code they add to the ECM. So long as it's all corrected for in the process it makes no difference to end use. Just an interesting factor of the device.
For obvious reasons, Twin Tec can/will figure out a correction factor.. or maybe a module that piggybacks to the EMS.. I certainly would enjoy having this capability with my EMS... :2vrolijk_21:
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For obvious reasons, Twin Tec can/will figure out a correction factor.. or maybe a module that piggybacks to the EMS.. I certainly would enjoy having this capability with my EMS... :2vrolijk_21:
I would hope the Twin Tec would be accurate, but I got the info from the programmer at Revolution Perf so I'm not sure I'm going to trust the Twin tec when it come to measuring AFR.
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That's not quite true...for example, in a 20w50 oil, the "50" comes from measuring it's flow at 212 degrees F. The "20" is the flow when the oil is cold, as in when it is sitting in the oil pan in a cold engine with the ambient air temp also cold. It allows the engine to turn over more easily at colder temps. It is not a 20 weight oil any given temp other than when completely cold. So, with a 20W50 oil (or 20W60) you get all the benefits of better flow when the engine is cold for easier starting, easier intitial flow characteristics through the engine when first cranked, PLUS the benefits of a 50W oil when it gets hot. So, you can think of the "W" as the winter variable in 20W50...easier to pour (flow) out of a container at say 20 degrees F than would be a straight 50W oil. IMO, you get the best of all worlds by using a multivicosity oil...the advantages of both extremes in temperature.
You went into more detail than I, but we're on the same page as far as multiviscosity and the VI (Viscosity Index). To be correct and specific, viscosity always changes with temperature; therefore, to compare different oils, the SAE J300 standard (home of numbers like 20w50) mandates certain test temps. The table below shows the requirements to be classified as a certain viscosity. You can see the different grades have varying test temps (for comparison, -40 C = -40 F; -15 C = 5 F).
Column 1: SAE Oil Viscosity Grade
Col 2: Low Temperature °C Cranking Viscosity (mPa∙s) Max
Col 3: Low Temperature °C Pumping Viscosity (mPa∙s) Max (MRV)
Col 4: Viscosity at 100°C Min
0W 6200 @ -35 60000 @ -40 3.8
5W 6600 @ -30 60000 @ -35 3.8
10W 7000 @ -25 60000 @ -30 4.1
15W 7000 @ -20 60000 @ -25 5.6
20W 9500 @ -15 60000 @ -20 5.6
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I'd much rather have a synthetic oil, which I know will withstand higher temperatures without beginning the breakdown process. Dino oils begin this process at a lower temp. I choose synthetics for my bike because they can withstand higher operating temperatures better, plus they hold up longer, resulting in longer change intervals. In my car, I still run high quality Dino oil, as the operating temps are relatively contstant on the high end.
You're overlooking something in this quote. While you correctly point out that synthetics handle higher temps without breakdown, you then say it's the constancy of car operating temps that makes dino acceptable. It's not a question of constant; rather, it's the max temperature (well, and shear pressure too, but syn is still better) reached. Even with water cooling, car engines operate at high temps--we just aren't as aware of it, since we're not right above the engine--and no, I'm not going to sit on my car's intake manifold for a 5 minute traffic light in 90 deg heat to show it's cooler than my bike!
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You're overlooking something in this quote. While you correctly point out that synthetics handle higher temps without breakdown, you then say it's the constancy of car operating temps that makes dino acceptable. It's not a question of constant; rather, it's the max temperature (well, and shear pressure too, but syn is still better) reached. Even with water cooling, car engines operate at high temps--we just aren't as aware of it, since we're not right above the engine--and no, I'm not going to sit on my car's intake manifold for a 5 minute traffic light in 90 deg heat to show it's cooler than my bike!
You are correct...a better choice of words would have been consistancy of temps, once operating temps are reached.