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[mjb765]

MJ, you can monitor your AFR in real time or in recorded sessions with that Twin Tec II scan tool.  Unlike a lot of dyno tunes that set a flat AFR everywhere your EMS will have the AFR varied for different engine conditions.  That is a far better method for real world riding.  Play with the tool a bit and you'll know both what you've got and where/when you've got it.

We I spoke with Josh at Rev Perf he mentioned that the Twin Tec may not give accurate readings due to something they do to the ECM. I'm not sure I understand what that would be, but the twin tech said approx 13.5 and my AFR meter was reading over 14 using the meters separate O2 sensor. So i'm not sure what to believe. Based on Josh's explanation and the fact that the eng is running hot, I'm thinking the over 14 reading would be more accurate. Also Josh said they set the ECM to maintain a 14.1 AFR.

[DESERTBEAR54]

I have learned over the years and finally getting rid of the oil temp dip stick that the temp of the oil on a CVO is enough to drive you crazy if you focus on it. Now I just drive it and change it out on the specific intervals. Much less Stress!! All I know is it gets HOT!!

[Texas 103]

Been hearing a lot of recommendations to run it to try to quiet the motor a bit--and it did get a little better. Harley SAE 50 Dino. I even checked the service maunal at it says for over 60 degrees ambient temp you can run it. Definitely hot enough around here lately to try it.

20-60 Redline...

[mjb765]

20-60 Redline...

That's next.....

[Twolanerider]

We I spoke with Josh at Rev Perf he mentioned that the Twin Tec may not give accurate readings due to something they do to the ECM. I'm not sure I understand what that would be, but the twin tech said approx 13.5 and my AFR meter was reading over 14 using the meters separate O2 sensor. So i'm not sure what to believe. Based on Josh's explanation and the fact that the eng is running hot, I'm thinking the over 14 reading would be more accurate. Also Josh said they set the ECM to maintain a 14.1 AFR.

huh......   new news

Now will have to do some comparative measures on mine when the opportunity presents.

[Twolanerider]

We I spoke with Josh at Rev Perf he mentioned that the Twin Tec may not give accurate readings due to something they do to the ECM. I'm not sure I understand what that would be, but the twin tech said approx 13.5 and my AFR meter was reading over 14 using the meters separate O2 sensor. So i'm not sure what to believe. Based on Josh's explanation and the fact that the eng is running hot, I'm thinking the over 14 reading would be more accurate. Also Josh said they set the ECM to maintain a 14.1 AFR.

Follow up thought.  Wonder if they have a correction factor?

[mjb765]

Follow up thought.  Wonder if they have a correction factor?

He didn't mention that--but I never asked either. He just told me the Twin Tech wouldn't be a good way to measure AFR.

[Twolanerider]

He didn't mention that--but I never asked either. He just told me the Twin Tech wouldn't be a good way to measure AFR.

That's interesting.  Twin Tec is going to get it's data from the ECM.  So their module is cooking the books in some way.  There's got to be a correction factor of some kind either in their module's code or in the code they add to the ECM.  So long as it's all corrected for in the process it makes no difference to end use.  Just an interesting factor of the device.

[SIX38]

Hello Mike,
 Stop beating yourself up over this. 258 deg at the dipstick on an 85 deg. day is not a cause for concern.
A few things to consider;
 The dipstick temp gauge is reading the oil at a location where the oil is returning to the crankcase from the engine, therefore it will be at it's highest temperature.
The oil then flows forward through the serpentine channels in the oil pan, which provides some cooling to the front of the pan where it's picked up by the oil pump.
It then flows to a thermostatic valve which send the oil to the oil cooler if the oil is above 200 deg, then back through the oil filter and then to the top and bottom ends of the engine.
So the engine is seeing oil that's much cooler than the dipstick reading.
Since these motors are air cooled, oil temps will rise 1 to 1 with a rise in ambient temperatures, other conditions being equal.
 I do suggest using a quality synthetic oil. Among it's many benefits, much better performance at higher temperatures.
 We need to meet at "The Maples" to discuss this and other important issues of the day!
Best wishes,
Tom P.

[SG Racer]

I agree. The oil is measured when it returns. It has picked up heat and gives kind of a inaccurate reading. It is that hot right at the stick but when it is moving through the engine, it gets cooled off some. Running too thick of oil robs you of horsepower also. Ever try to turn a oil pump and prime a engine, as soon as it starts to pick up oil, it gets very hard to turn. The thicker oil makes it even harder. I have done a lot of race car engines and there is a difference in the viscosity of oil. Some oils actually made more power. The synthetics will help with the heat problem as far as not breaking down. Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps.
 Ray

[Para Bellum]

I'm slightly confused here--thought the point of running a multi-weight oil (20/50, 20/60, whatever) was that when temps are cooler, the oil viscosity is at the lower number (20) and when hotter the viscosity is at the higher number.  If that's true, why would we want to use a single-weight oil, since it can't adapt to the different temps?  And why use dino oil at all, since it is more likely to break down under heat than a good quality synthetic of the same weight?

[Midnight Rider]

I'm slightly confused here--thought the point of running a multi-weight oil (20/50, 20/60, whatever) was that when temps are cooler, the oil viscosity is at the lower number (20) and when hotter the viscosity is at the higher number.  If that's true, why would we want to use a single-weight oil, since it can't adapt to the different temps?  And why use dino oil at all, since it is more likely to break down under heat than a good quality synthetic of the same weight?

That's not quite true...for example, in a 20w50 oil, the "50" comes from measuring it's flow at 212 degrees F.  The "20" is the flow when the oil is cold, as in when it is sitting in the oil pan in a cold engine with the ambient air temp also cold.  It allows the engine to turn over more easily at colder temps.  It is not a 20 weight oil any given temp other than when completely cold.  So, with a 20W50 oil (or 20W60) you get all the benefits of better flow when the engine is cold for easier starting, easier intitial flow characteristics through the engine when first cranked, PLUS the benefits of a 50W oil when it gets hot.  So, you can think of the "W" as the winter variable in 20W50...easier to pour (flow) out of a container at say 20 degrees F than would be a straight 50W oil.  IMO, you get the best of all worlds by using a multivicosity oil...the advantages of both extremes in temperature.  I'm not a chemical engineer, but in my thinking, I'd much rather have a synthetic oil, which I know will withstand higher temperatures without beginning the breakdown process.  Dino oils begin this process at a lower temp.  I choose synthetics for my bike because they can withstand higher operating temperatures better, plus they hold up longer, resulting in longer change intervals.  In my car, I still run high quality Dino oil, as the operating temps are relatively contstant on the high end.  Most single weight oils are only run in things like lawn mowers, as it is assumed that they will be operated when the ambient air temps are warmer.  And in racing applications, they still run single weight, for the most part.

[cvobiker]

That's interesting.  Twin Tec is going to get it's data from the ECM.  So their module is cooking the books in some way.  There's got to be a correction factor of some kind either in their module's code or in the code they add to the ECM.  So long as it's all corrected for in the process it makes no difference to end use.  Just an interesting factor of the device.

For obvious reasons, Twin Tec can/will figure out a correction factor.. or maybe a module that piggybacks to the EMS..  I certainly would enjoy having this capability with my EMS... 

[mjb765]

For obvious reasons, Twin Tec can/will figure out a correction factor.. or maybe a module that piggybacks to the EMS..  I certainly would enjoy having this capability with my EMS... 

I would hope the Twin Tec would be accurate, but I got the info from the programmer at Revolution Perf so I'm not sure I'm going to trust the Twin tec when it come to measuring AFR.

[Para Bellum]

That's not quite true...for example, in a 20w50 oil, the "50" comes from measuring it's flow at 212 degrees F.  The "20" is the flow when the oil is cold, as in when it is sitting in the oil pan in a cold engine with the ambient air temp also cold.  It allows the engine to turn over more easily at colder temps.  It is not a 20 weight oil any given temp other than when completely cold.  So, with a 20W50 oil (or 20W60) you get all the benefits of better flow when the engine is cold for easier starting, easier intitial flow characteristics through the engine when first cranked, PLUS the benefits of a 50W oil when it gets hot.  So, you can think of the "W" as the winter variable in 20W50...easier to pour (flow) out of a container at say 20 degrees F than would be a straight 50W oil.  IMO, you get the best of all worlds by using a multivicosity oil...the advantages of both extremes in temperature.

You went into more detail than I, but we're on the same page as far as multiviscosity and the VI (Viscosity Index).  To be correct and specific, viscosity always changes with temperature; therefore, to compare different oils, the SAE J300 standard (home of numbers like 20w50) mandates certain test temps.  The table below shows the requirements to be classified as a certain viscosity.  You can see the different grades have varying test temps (for comparison,  -40 C = -40 F; -15 C = 5 F).

Column 1: SAE Oil Viscosity Grade
Col 2:  Low Temperature °C Cranking Viscosity (mPa∙s) Max
Col 3:  Low Temperature °C Pumping Viscosity (mPa∙s) Max (MRV)
Col 4:  Viscosity at 100°C Min

 
0W            6200 @ -35              60000 @ -40                 3.8
5W            6600 @ -30              60000 @ -35                 3.8
10W          7000 @ -25              60000 @ -30                  4.1
15W          7000 @ -20              60000 @ -25                  5.6
20W          9500 @ -15              60000 @ -20                  5.6