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CVO Technical => Drive Train => Topic started by: Hoist! on April 07, 2007, 04:41:33 PM
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OK, I just got a call from the shop. He was changing the Primary Fluid. He pulled the magnetic plug and found a tooth from the Starter Ring Gear on the plug. Just under 500 miles! POS spring-loaded, banging compensator! WTF! Was trying to live with that awful banging at start up, but never liked it. Knew it would mess up eventually. Well it did already! Anyone aware of any solutions to the mess they created inside there besides just fixing it stock? My choice is to have it W.....ty'd and worked on by the dealer (not a fan), or find a bulletproof solution to it and fix it on my own. Can the spring-loaded compensator be removed and just tack-welded so it won't back off? Anyone with ideas/fixes for this? Thanks. Hoist! 8)
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Ring gear or Starter drive?..I have no answers.
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You just installed new handlebars. You KNOW that would void the warranty anyway.
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Ring gear or Starter drive?..I have no answers.
A tooth from the starter ring gear I'm told. Hoist! 8)
FTW! I'm looking for the right fix. The W.....ty will only put it back the way it was, for it to happen again!
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This amazing part will fix the “grind” associated with starting bikes that have a solid or very rigid belt drive actuation. The engineered spring and ramped teeth help integrate the teeth before the unit locks in and turns. Stop grinding your teeth—and the bike's jackshaft all while producing smoother and quieter starts
(http://i12.ebayimg.com/05/i/06/22/c9/e5_1.JPG)
http://www.ridinggearonline.com/bdl-starter-fix.html (http://www.ridinggearonline.com/bdl-starter-fix.html)
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This amazing part will fix the “grind” associated with starting bikes that have a solid or very rigid belt drive actuation. The engineered spring and ramped teeth help integrate the teeth before the unit locks in and turns. Stop grinding your teeth—and the bike's jackshaft all while producing smoother and quieter starts
(http://i12.ebayimg.com/05/i/06/22/c9/e5_1.JPG)
http://www.ridinggearonline.com/bdl-starter-fix.html (http://www.ridinggearonline.com/bdl-starter-fix.html)
Thanks Puzzled, but that kit describes a fix for a BDL Belt Drive starter pinion gear. Something like this would help engage the ring gear smoother. Do they make it for stock '07 chain primary drives? I'm also looking for a compensator fix. Hoist! 8)
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Yes it is described as a BDL fix (cause' they suck). My train of thought is to do some comparing. What makes it a BDL fix? Number of teeth? On that note it is nothing more (for sake of arguement) than a hopped up OEM unit with back cut teeth and a stronger spring so,.... why not back cut the teeth on an OEM unit like we were doing before this piece came out a couple of years ago. As for the spring I'd have to have an OEM one in my hand for measurement purposes and to check spring compression rate.
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Yes it is described as a BDL fix (cause' they suck). My train of thought is to do some comparing. What makes it a BDL fix? Number of teeth? On that note it is nothing more (for sake of arguement) than a hopped up OEM unit with back cut teeth and a stronger spring so,.... why not back cut the teeth on an OEM unit like we were doing before this piece came out a couple of years ago. As for the spring I'd have to have an OEM one in my hand for measurement purposes and to check spring compression rate.
I'm thinking more of like a conversion to pre '07, where you can use the GP Bearing support and lock thing in, or another modification of some type! I was hoping this has been addressed and a fix for it offered. Hoist! 8)
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hoist, check out this bulletproof solution
EAGLE MOTOR COMPANY - EMC makes a comp-nut lock, that will eliminate any chance of it comming loose. check out their site nut lock (http://www.emcv2.com/accserv/acc-comploc/comploc.htm)
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So did you have a starter ring gear problem or a compensating nut problem?
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hoist, check out this bulletproof solution
EAGLE MOTOR COMPANY - EMC makes a comp-nut lock, that will eliminate any chance of it comming loose. check out their site nut lock (http://www.emcv2.com/accserv/acc-comploc/comploc.htm)
Thanks Eagle, That looks like it will eliminate that spring-loaded compensator, which I think contributed to the failure. That banging at start-up can't mean good things are happening! The failure broke teeth off the Starter Ring Gear and the Starter Jackshaft Pinion Gear! F'n wonderful! I'm checking into this, but I think I got enough damage to warrant the Dealer fixing it back to W.....ty first, and then worry about modifying it. I'll hope it lasts until winter and modify it when I do the cams, if it lasts that long! Need to know what fixes are available in the entire primary are and make the whole thing bulletproof! Hoist! 8)
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There was another post by a SE Dyna I believe that found many teeth missing when the fluid was changed. I guess you need a magnetic drain pan to find the pieces. This is turning into a real problem for me. $30K and our new slogan is
"it's not the destination it's that you were lucky to actually make it there"
I never broke anything on my three previous HDs and never broke down.
Good luck Hoist.
Skremin
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I just spoke to the head mechanic at my dealer (it's good to have his cell number). He filled me in on a few things. First, this is not uncommon with '07's and these starters. He's seen it before. He told me the whole primary must come apart and he'll see what HD will W.....ty. He's gonna try to get me everything, including a new starter. Well, if that's the case, it's chrome starter and chrome inner primary time with no labor! He flat out recommended against locking the compensator nut. He said this set-up needs the cushioning that this spring-loaded provides. He said it would bang harder without it. Looks like I'll be replacing the broken chit for now and see what develops. We'll keep an eye on it. I'm not liking this new Primary set-up right now! Bringing it in on Wed, after I pick up the bike from my friend's shop. Dealer will take everything apart and HD will make a determination as to what will be replaced. It's not totally the dealer's decision. Hopefully they'll authorize replacement of everything. Anything else in there I should be doing now?
Thanks Skremin, I've had good luck with my previous new ones also. I guess '07's the year for concerns. They changed a lot of things on these bikes. Probably cheaper for them to build 'em. Doesn't thrill me, but we'll have to find ways of improving their deficiencies! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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OK, I just got a call from the shop. He was changing the Primary Fluid. He pulled the magnetic plug and found a tooth from the Starter Ring Gear on the plug. Anyone aware of any solutions to the mess they created inside there besides just fixing it stock?Thanks. Hoist! 8)
The buzz around the water cooler is that a number of brittle ring gears with heat-treat issues made it into the field; one apparently found its way into your garage. I'll bet 50 cents that a stock replacement will take care of you.
djkak
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The buzz around the water cooler is that a number of brittle ring gears with heat-treat issues made it into the field; one apparently found its way into your garage. I'll bet 50 cents that a stock replacement will take care of you.
djkak
Thanks dj. I can't shake that uneasy feeling about the design of this Primary set up. Can you explain more about this Primary set up on these '07's. That whole banging thing is creepy. I can't see how that's good! Are they trying to compensate (no pun) for a primary/statarting system originally designed for 50 HP now work with high HO/TQ motors? Can anything be done to make it stronger? I could use a good Technical Dump again! Thanks man. Hoist! 8)
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Sorry to hear of your ring gear issues Howie. Totally sucks at most any mileage but at 500 it really sucks.
Wouldn't it figure that every time you talked about the warranty you were knocking on wood and missed it just tht one time. All kidding aside, good to have the warranty. I think the dealer makes more of the call than he is letting on too. At least it works that way in the car business.
Good luck with the hassle and hopefully you're on the raod quickly. A new chrome starter would be nice, I sure like looking at mine after the trueduals were installed.
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Hoist,
My friend with a 07 Road King 96 CI. Had the starter lock up with 600 miles! The wrench at the dealer said he was seeing a few. He said it was a ECM problem, to much advance at start up causing a kick back. There was a recall to reflash the ECM but his was after the correction so the recall must not have fixed the problem. He noticed the problem because the clutch would not disengage. He found out that it had so many teeth missing from the ring gear and the starter drive they were making the clutch not function. Needless to say he is not happy with a 600 mile bike in the shop with some of the parts on back order.
Mikey
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Thanks Rog, and thanks for the input Mikey, and welcome to Full Club membership with your 100th Post! I haven't heard anything about an ECM flash, but the PC should be able to take care of timing issues, once I dyno it. I hadn't heard about these timing issues from anyone else yet. The tech said that the jackshaft pinion gear wasn't returning fast enough, causing this. He attributed this to a bad starter as the main culprit in the chain of events. Who knows. I hope he replaces as much as they let him. He's a pretty good guy, but I guess they have procedures, for certain failures, that the factory must get involved in. I'll see what they come back with, once it's apart. Hoist! 8)
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They had issues with the compensator nut coming loose on some of the 04 SEEG (i had it happen) and they said that the nuts where miss torqued. They used red loctite and retorqued I never had issues again.
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They had issues with the compensator nut coming loose on some of the 04 SEEG (i had it happen) and they said that the nuts where miss torqued. They used red loctite and retorqued I never had issues again.
Magoo
thanks for the comp nut flashback!!!!!
It is specially designed to come loose and explode in the middle of nowhere!!!!
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Magoo
thanks for the comp nut flashback!!!!!
It is specially designed to come loose and explode in the middle of nowhere!!!!
Isn't that just typical.
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Isn't that just typical.
Amen
but i did get to ride in a dually with no AC in 113 degree heat for like 4 hours !!!
and meet some new friends at Grand Junction HD
so there was a plus side to it
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Is this problem peculiar to the A motors?
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Thanks dj. I can't shake that uneasy feeling about the design of this Primary set up. Can you explain more about this Primary set up on these '07's. That whole banging thing is creepy. I can't see how that's good! Are they trying to compensate (no pun) for a primary/statarting system originally designed for 50 HP now work with high HO/TQ motors? Can anything be done to make it stronger? I could use a good Technical Dump again! Thanks man. Hoist! 8)
Let’s look at this from the perspective of a 1993 96” EVO stroker. The starting system components of this machine operate in a truly brutal environment. If starter clutches were on backorder, you would sweat it, even if yours was still working. Considering the high loads on this system, the ring gear was never the weak link; the starter clutch would always fail first. Come to think of it, I don’t recall any significant issues with the one-piece ring gear. The early electric start machines had a laminated unit that would regularly soil the nest.
The mechanical load on the starting system of your 110” machine has been reduced in a number of significant ways, including:
The 110” stroke is ¼” shorter than the 96” EVO,
The primary ratio has changed, substantially reducing the load.
The starter pinion to ring gear ratio has changed, reducing the load.
The ECM has much broader control over the startup process.
Automatic compression release.
The one-piece ring gear has passed the test of time, under greater loads than they are subjected to today. It is my humble opinion that the issues with the fractured ring gear teeth are the result of a manufacturing issue that is easily recognized and corrected. IMHO, this is a no brainier; have your Dealer fix you up.
The compensating sprocket is another issue. The primary ratio change that works so well for the starter increases the load of the comp sprocket. This is a new piece without much history, so it’s hard to get a good sense of the real issues. Since the load on the spring assembly has increased I am thinking about issues with the long term reliability; although broken springs in the previous units are a non-event; no big deal. At this point, I wouldn’t get too worked up about the comp sprocket rattle.
djkak
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Let’s look at this from the perspective of a 1993 96” EVO stroker. The starting system components of this machine operate in a truly brutal environment. If starter clutches were on backorder, you would sweat it, even if yours was still working. Considering the high loads on this system, the ring gear was never the weak link; the starter clutch would always fail first. Come to think of it, I don’t recall any significant issues with the one-piece ring gear. The early electric start machines had a laminated unit that would regularly soil the nest.
The mechanical load on the starting system of your 110” machine has been reduced in a number of significant ways, including:
The 110” stroke is ¼” shorter than the 96” EVO,
The primary ratio has changed, substantially reducing the load.
The starter pinion to ring gear ratio has changed, reducing the load.
The ECM has much broader control over the startup process.
Automatic compression release.
The one-piece ring gear has passed the test of time, under greater loads than they are subjected to today. It is my humble opinion that the issues with the fractured ring gear teeth are the result of a manufacturing issue that is easily recognized and corrected. IMHO, this is a no brainier; have your Dealer fix you up.
The compensating sprocket is another issue. The primary ratio change that works so well for the starter increases the load of the comp sprocket. This is a new piece without much history, so it’s hard to get a good sense of the real issues. Since the load on the spring assembly has increased I am thinking about issues with the long term reliability; although broken springs in the previous units are a non-event; no big deal. At this point, I wouldn’t get too worked up about the comp sprocket rattle.
djkak
Thanks for the assessment dj. All that being said, what the hell do these engines need ACR's for then. Shorter stroke, lower compression. This engine shouldn't need ACR's. I hear the ACR's are half the problem with the banging around in there and teeth breaking. I agree that the ring gear is not causing the problem, but with many failures in primary, something is the weak link in there! Hoist! 8)
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Thanks for the assessment dj. All that being said, what the hell do these engines need ACR's for then. Shorter stroke, lower compression. This engine shouldn't need ACR's. I hear the ACR's are half the problem with the banging around in there and teeth breaking. I agree that the ring gear is not causing the problem, but with many failures in primary, something is the weak link in there! Hoist! 8)
Let me try this again; the starter ring gear is the root cause of the ring gear failures on the ’07 machines; the ring gear caused the failure. The ring gears are failing because they have been incorrectly manufactured, and are too brittle. Properly manufactured ring gears have passed the test of time and are proven to be capable of standing up to extreme loads; unlike the ring gear in your machine. A properly manufactured ring gear will solve your problem. If I’m off base here it won’t take long to get that sorted out with the season coming on, and I will take my well deserved beating.
On the unrelated topic of starter load; the load is relative to the application. The 1993 stroker places much greater loads on the starter than your 2007 SERK. What about the starter’s original application? I could be wrong, but this starter looks a lot like an off-the-shelf starter that you might find on a 1990 Mitsubishi; or is that a MuchYouBitchedAt. A machine like this might have a 120 cubic inch four banger with a 20” ring gear. Relatively speaking, that is a walk in the park.
It is worth considering that historically, these starters have been a significant maintenance issue, especially in high performance applications. If the ACR’s can improve the long term performance of the starter and reduce maintenance issues that would be a good thing. I’ll bet you another 50 cents that when the ACR’s get some field time, you will see them used in a much broader application.
djkak
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Thanks Rog, and thanks for the input Mikey, and welcome to Full Club membership with your 100th Post! I haven't heard anything about an ECM flash, but the PC should be able to take care of timing issues, once I dyno it. I hadn't heard about these timing issues from anyone else yet. The tech said that the jackshaft pinion gear wasn't returning fast enough, causing this. He attributed this to a bad starter as the main culprit in the chain of events. Who knows. I hope he replaces as much as they let him. He's a pretty good guy, but I guess they have procedures, for certain failures, that the factory must get involved in. I'll see what they come back with, once it's apart. Hoist! 8)
The starters are made by Denso Corp in Maryville ,TN.
I heard on the grapevine about 3 months back that Harley stopped the production on the original starters and had them re-enginered because of starting problems. I don't know if any part numbers were changed. Guess someone could look the starter number up and see if it reflects an update.
DAVE
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The starters are made by Denso Corp in Maryville ,TN.
I heard on the grapevine about 3 months back that Harley stopped the production on the original starters and had them re-enginered because of starting problems. I don't know if any part numbers were changed. Guess someone could look the starter number up and see if it reflects an update.
DAVE
You could be right. My parts book shows the complete starter assembly, black, as 31619-06A. This doesn't come up as a good P/N in Zanotti's look up. Either does that number with suffix "B". It still shows up as 31619-06. No "A". The SERK Parts Catalog shows it with the "A" suffix. The P&A book shows it without the "A". The P&A book shows the Chrome as 31621-06 and that part looks up as No Good. But 31621-06A, with the "A" suffix, shows up as the high output Chrome Starter. Confusing! Hoist! 8)
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You could be right. My parts book shows the complete starter assembly, black, as 31619-06A. This doesn't come up as a good P/N in Zanotti's look up. Either does that number with suffix "B". It still shows up as 31619-06. No "A". The SERK Parts Catalog shows it with the "A" suffix. The P&A book shows it without the "A". The P&A book shows the Chrome as 31621-06 and that part looks up as No Good. But 31621-06A, with the "A" suffix, shows up as the high output Chrome Starter. Confusing! Hoist! 8)
HOIST,
Look on the Chicago Harley web sight. 31621-06 look up shows the 31621-06a as a replacement.
DAVE
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HOIST,
Look on the Chicago Harley web sight. 31621-06 look up shows the 31621-06a as a replacement.
DAVE
That's what Zanotti's shows too. But they still show the one w/o the "A", 31619-06 as the Black one. What about Chicago? Do they show it as "A"? MY SERK Parts Book shows the "A". I'm curious whether my starter is the "A" mod or an older one. That's one way to make sure they replace it! I'm hoping they w.....ty my starter. Then I'll pay the $150 difference and no labor for the chrome one.. Maybe HD just wanted me to have their chrome chit. That's why this happened! ::) Hoist! 8)
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That's what Zanotti's shows too. But they still show the one w/o the "A", 31619-06 as the Black one. What about Chicago? Do they show it as "A"? MY SERK Parts Book shows the "A". I'm curious whether my starter is the "A" mod or an older one. That's one way to make sure they replace it! I'm hoping they w.....ty my starter. Then I'll pay the $150 difference and no labor for the chrome one.. Maybe HD just wanted me to have their chrome chit. That's why this happened! ::) Hoist! 8)
The a version does not show up on the Chicago web sight.
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The a version does not show up on the Chicago web sight.
Strange things going on in Harley Partsland! It's clearly Rev "A" in the SERK Parts Catalog (99433-07), p.43! Hopefully it won't matter and I'll be getting the chrome one which is an "A" mod! Hoist! 8)
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Thanks Rog, and thanks for the input Mikey, and welcome to Full Club membership with your 100th Post! I haven't heard anything about an ECM flash, but the PC should be able to take care of timing issues, once I dyno it. I hadn't heard about these timing issues from anyone else yet. The tech said that the jackshaft pinion gear wasn't returning fast enough, causing this. He attributed this to a bad starter as the main culprit in the chain of events. Who knows. I hope he replaces as much as they let him. He's a pretty good guy, but I guess they have procedures, for certain failures, that the factory must get involved in. I'll see what they come back with, once it's apart. Hoist! 8)
Hoist, The ECM flash was the recall for all 2007 engines released October /November last year for Torque smoothing.
My dealer explained it was to avoid issues with slamming the throttle while lugging the motor sub 1800RPM.
Actually I had it installed last week and it improved the shift points. Before the flash, I felt I was always in the wrong gear as in carrying a passenger. Too much hifting. Your sERK would already have this ECM flash.
Happy Easter! :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
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Hoist, The ECM flash was the recall for all 2007 engines released October /November last year for Torque smoothing.
My dealer explained it was to avoid issues with slamming the throttle while lugging the motor sub 1800RPM.
Actually I had it installed last week and it improved the shift points. Before the flash, I felt I was always in the wrong gear as in carrying a passenger. Too much hifting. Your sERK would already have this ECM flash.
Happy Easter! :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
Thanks skremin, I'll have them check it when I'm there next week. I didn't hear about that one. Only the rear cylinder cut-out one. Hoist! 8)
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The bike's at the dealer. They'll take it apart tomorrow and get their authorizations from the Factory. I'm expecting a new starter (chrome) and clutch hub. That will fix the broken junk. He'll put on a chrome inner primary too. That's all providing he has to remove the inner and that the starter gets replaced under w.....ty.
Speedo's on the fritz too! Reads LLLLLL instead of miles on the odometer. He's gonna check it and probably replace that too. He's gonna try to get the bike back to me before York! So far, no Wednesday bike! But the new handlebars are great! ::)
Hoist! 8)
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http://www.compufire.com/pages/harley-main.html
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http://www.compufire.com/pages/harley-main.html
Thanks Puzzled, but I don't think MoCo's paying for that stuff. That's what they should be using in the first place though! ;) Hoist! 8)
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No, I don't suspect they will. ;D Save that link should it go sour again. ;)
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No, I don't suspect they will. ;D Save that link should it go sour again. ;)
Already done. You never know. When I get rid of the ACR's next year, I might just need one! ;) Hoist! 8)
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Just got the call from the Tech at HD. The clutch hub with the broken starter ring gear teeth, and the starter with the broken jackshaft pinion gear, both will be replaced. He will use a chrome starter and charge me the difference. The inner primary doesn't have to be removed to do this job, so if I want the chrome inner primary, I have to pay for it, and 1 hour labor. I guess that's fair, but thought it would be no big deal to just change it for me. After all, I'm being inconvenienced with their deficiencies. Whatever, I told him to proceed anyway. Some things are worth fighting about and some aren't! Now you know why I'm making sure my bike is set up right on my own. Fighting over w.....ty is not worth my time. And I know these people pretty well too! I'll save the fighting for the worthwhile things! FTW!!! ;) They're going to try to finish by Wed since they don't have a chrome starter. Cutting it close for York, but I'll keep mt fingers crossed! Hoist! 8)
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That's good news Howie. That is going to look sharp.
Hope they get that chrome starter in soon. They can overnight them but I doubt the moco would spring for the cost to do that, lol.
Jerry
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The bike's at the dealer. They'll take it apart tomorrow and get their authorizations from the Factory. I'm expecting a new starter (chrome) and clutch hub. That will fix the broken junk. He'll put on a chrome inner primary too. That's all providing he has to remove the inner and that the starter gets replaced under w.....ty.
Speedo's on the fritz too! Reads LLLLLL instead of miles on the odometer. He's gonna check it and probably replace that too. He's gonna try to get the bike back to me before York! So far, no Wednesday bike! But the new handlebars are great! ::)
Hoist! 8) hoist, what bars did you end up with. My custom bars are finally coming in on Fri. Do you have any pictures. Thanks Billy
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Just got the call from the Tech at HD. The clutch hub with the broken starter ring gear teeth, and the starter with the broken jackshaft pinion gear, both will be replaced. He will use a chrome starter and charge me the difference. The inner primary doesn't have to be removed to do this job, so if I want the chrome inner primary, I have to pay for it, and 1 hour labor. I guess that's fair, but thought it would be no big deal to just change it for me. After all, I'm being inconvenienced with their deficiencies. Whatever, I told him to proceed anyway. Some things are worth fighting about and some aren't! Now you know why I'm making sure my bike is set up right on my own. Fighting over w.....ty is not worth my time. And I know these people pretty well too! I'll save the fighting for the worthwhile things! FTW!!! ;) They're going to try to finish by Wed since they don't have a chrome starter. Cutting it close for York, but I'll keep mt fingers crossed! Hoist! 8)
Hoist....for an hour labor, that would be a no-brainer for me too. The chome inner is just something the bike really needs, IMO. Really sets the whole engine off...
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Thanks Jerry, I even told them I'd pay the freight extra. Let's see if they can get it done.
Hey Billy, I used the Wild 1 Chubby 10" Mini Apes WO 515. It worked out great. Just had to change the front brake line.
Yeah Terry, I wouldn't take the whole thing a part just to replace the inner primary. But since it's going to be apart anyway, it's not a bad deal to do it now. i agree, the chrome inner and chrome starter with the true duals, sets everything off nice!
Hoist! 8)
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Well gang, keep any eye on your starter ring gears! I was told my clutch hub is on National back order because HD's changing the design/materials to try to fix the run of problems their having with the current one. They're not installing them anymore in new bikes. They are using a new PN from here on in, when it's available. They've been making ring gears without problems forever. WTF??? They said the new starter design puts much more stress on the ring gear, requiring a design/material change. Therefore, no SERK for me for a few weeks probably. They better get it back to me before my CVO pickup ride!!! Damn this sucks!!! Needless to say, Hoist is not a happy camper right now! FTF! FTW! Hoist! :o
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Sounds like the old cause and effect of Murphys law.
The cure (new starter ) destroys the next weaker part ( the ring gear ).
Is there an aftermarket ring gear made by Andrews or S&S. I know Harley wouldn`t pay for it under warranty but the warranty is no good when broke down South of Dallas.
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Sounds like the old cause and effect of Murphys law.
The cure (new starter ) destroys the next weaker part ( the ring gear ).
Is there an aftermarket ring gear made by Andrews or S&S. I know Harley wouldn`t pay for it under warranty but the warranty is no good when broke down South of Dallas.
HD is now R&D. These limited edition new engine models suck when it comes to needing parts. It took 4 weeks to order a new rear wheel for my SERK.
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Well gang, keep any eye on your starter ring gears! I was told my clutch hub is on National back order because HD's changing the design/materials to try to fix the run of problems their having with the current one. They're not installing them anymore in new bikes. They are using a new PN from here on in, when it's available. They've been making ring gears without problems forever. WTF??? They said the new starter design puts much more stress on the ring gear, requiring a design/material change. Therefore, no SERK for me for a few weeks probably. They better get it back to me before my CVO pickup ride!!! Damn this sucks!!! Needless to say, Hoist is not a happy camper right now! FTF! FTW! Hoist! :o
Howie,
Sorry to hear this. I know you had mentioned you wanted to go w/a chrome starter to replace the OEM does this mean they will be needing to change these also? This may be something for those w/the 110ci motors to be aware of.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Wow Howie,
Sorry for your troubles, I hope they get a fix for you soon.I know you had such enthusiasm about getting this new bike and this has to damper the joy a lot.
Good luck,
Dave
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Sounds like the old cause and effect of Murphys law.
The cure (new starter ) destroys the next weaker part ( the ring gear ).
Is there an aftermarket ring gear made by Andrews or S&S. I know Harley wouldn`t pay for it under warranty but the warranty is no good when broke down South of Dallas.
The ring gear is welded to the clutch hub. It's a major hassle to replace only the ring gear. I'm sure there must be aftermarket clutches for the bike I guess, but this is probably about a $1500 job overall. I'll use the stock stuff right now and hope they have it cured, and also hope that the dealer doesn't screw up my bike. If this happens again, FTW, I'm replacing the clutch with non-HD chit! The starter is being replaced as well because the broken ring gear took out the starter jackshaft pinion gear. $100 extra for the chrome one. $270 for a chrome inner primary and 1 hour labor. I'm still in this thing for another $500, but that's cheap for a chrome starter/inner primary. I wouldn't be doing this if it didn't break in the first place. Seems like they design a bike, then you have to replace all their cheapo crap with real quality aftermarket parts so you don't have to worry about breaking down! FTF!!! FTW!!! Hoist! 8)
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Howie,
Sorry to hear this. I know you had mentioned you wanted to go w/a chrome starter to replace the OEM does this mean they will be needing to change these also? This may be something for those w/the 110ci motors to be aware of.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
I don't think they're changing starter design/materials, just the clutch hub/ring gear. I believe it's not just the 110's. It's all '07's and '06 Dynas from what I understand. Hoist! 8)
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I don't think they're changing starter design/materials, just the clutch hub/ring gear. I believe it's not just the 110's. It's all '07's and '06 Dynas from what I understand. Hoist! 8)
Ok, gotcha. For some reason I was thinking the problem was in the gears on the starter. :oops:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Ok, gotcha. For some reason I was thinking the problem was in the gears on the starter. :oops:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
My understanding is the broken ring gear took out the starter gear, but the starter design is unchanged. They have my new chrome starter, but without the new clutch hub I'm SOL! Hoist! 8)
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. Seems like they design a bike, then you have to replace all their cheapo crap with real quality aftermarket parts so you don't have to worry about breaking down! FTF!!! FTW!!! Hoist! 8)
Hoist, that's why when you bought the bike one of the things they gave you was the new parts catalog. Even though Willie G is an idiot, his moma didn't raise a fool. :coolblue:
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Hoist, that's why when you bought the bike one of the things they gave you was the new parts catalog. Even though Willie G is an idiot, his moma didn't raise a fool. :coolblue:
Brian, you forgot one thing. You have to replace the cheapo HD broken junk with bulletproof aftermarket parts. That doesn't help Old Wille Boy any now! ::) Hoist!
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Hoist, was at the dealer yesterday, they had 2 07's in service with ring gear problems like yours. They said the problem is in the inferior metal used in the ring gear. We called Barnette and Rivera for new ring gears "mine needs one also" ad they do not have one available yet for' the 07's.
Can't blame you for replacing the parts with aftermarket but remember that your 2 year warranty will not cover them :huepfenlol2:
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Hoist, was at the dealer yesterday, they had 2 07's in service with ring gear problems like yours. They said the problem is in the inferior metal used in the ring gear. We called Barnette and Rivera for new ring gears "mine needs one also" ad they do not have one available yet for' the 07's.
Can't blame you for replacing the parts with aftermarket but remember that your 2 year warranty will not cover them :huepfenlol2:
:oops: :shocked2: :lipsrsealed2: :huepfenlol2:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Hoist, was at the dealer yesterday, they had 2 07's in service with ring gear problems like yours. They said the problem is in the inferior metal used in the ring gear. We called Barnette and Rivera for new ring gears "mine needs one also" ad they do not have one available yet for' the 07's.
Can't blame you for replacing the parts with aftermarket but remember that your 2 year warranty will not cover them :huepfenlol2:
FTW!!! ;) Hoist! 8)
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Guys,
I think there are more problems than the ring gear on all of the 07's. I was at Chicago Harley Davidson today and heard a brand new bike start with the happy new owner riding away. The starter sounded awful, the bike was kicking back when he initially cranked the engine and then died on the first try. Something is not right with that.
Mikey
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Guys,
I mentioned before I think there are more problems than the ring gear the 07. I was at Chicago Harley Davidson today and heard a brand new bike start with the happy new owner. The starter sounded awful, the bike was kicking back and died on the first try. Something is not right with that.
Mike
That sure is an understatement Mikey. Now that it's apart, I'm trying to find an alternative to this crazy setup. Hogasm's gonna think I'm nuts, but I'm calling Baker on Mon! A combination of the King Kong Clutch and regearing is starting to sound pretty good to me about now! ;) Hoist! 8)
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Guys,
I think there are more problems than the ring gear on all of the 07's. I was at Chicago Harley Davidson today and heard a brand new bike start with the happy new owner riding away. The starter sounded awful, the bike was kicking back when he initially cranked the engine and then died on the first try. Something is not right with that.
Mikey
The "BDL" fix was made for this sort of problem. You guys with the 110's are just now experiencing this however the hot rod bike crowd has been dealing with this for years. While I do not dispute the quality of the 07 ring gear I'd bet part of the problem is with the jack shaft. Than again what do I know. :nixweiss:
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The "BDL" fix was made for this sort of problem. You guys with the 110's are just now experiencing this however the hot rod bike crowd has been dealing with this for years. While I do not dispute the quality of the 07 ring gear I'd bet part of the problem is with the jack shaft. Than again what do I know. :nixweiss:
Ring gear has heat treatment problems. The jackshaft is now part of the starter and has no known direct problems. No one makes any parts for inside the primary (except for the clutch itself) for '07's. We're stuck with the stock parts in there, when there's a fix, until the aftermarket catches up. >:( No King Kong Clutch, no regearing, nothing!!! :nixweiss: Keep an eye on this guys! ;) Hoist! 8)
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That stinks for the 07 guys.
Since it appears it is a known problem you can bet someone is working on an aftermarket fix. $$$$$ to be made.
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Guys,
I think there are more problems than the ring gear on all of the 07's. I was at Chicago Harley Davidson today and heard a brand new bike start with the happy new owner riding away. The starter sounded awful, the bike was kicking back when he initially cranked the engine and then died on the first try. Something is not right with that.
Mikey
I aggree. My 110 SERK starts "violently" I attributed that to the ACR. Somethings gonna break.
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I aggree. My 110 SERK starts "violently" I attributed that to the ACR. Somethings gonna break.
The ACR program has something to do with how bad the banging gets. The spring loaded compensator is what you hear banging. There are no parts to replace this with either. So we will watch and wait. Someone will come out with a fix. I'll put a damn belt drive on if this keeps causing problems. New open primary, Baker trans, starter and clutch. Who says we need their chit! ;) Hoist! 8)
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Nothing worse than having your brandnew ride in the shop with the good weather finally coming our way. Sorry to hear about your starter assembly blowing up, Hoist! So far, so good on my serk except for minor headaches with the gauges.
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Nothing worse than having your brandnew ride in the shop with the good weather finally coming our way. Sorry to hear about your starter assembly blowing up, Hoist! So far, so good on my serk except for minor headaches with the gauges.
Hey kojak, how've you been. Glad to hear yours is holding up well! :2vrolijk_21: My bike was running fine when this happened. It still started fine too. But in the middle of the job was when it was determined that the part was backordered! So I just have to wait. Did you replace your speedo? I'm having issues with mine too. I hear they're making changes to them. I hope so. I'll wait for the new ones. Good to hear from you! Hoist! 8)
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Yeah, had them swap out the bad electronics. Same hassle, wait weeks for the parts to come in. Makes me appreciate my glide, 3 years and 20k miles and the thing is bulletproof. This pos has only 3k miles and been in the shop 3 times already for repairs.
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Thanks dj. I can't shake that uneasy feeling about the design of this Primary set up. Can you explain more about this Primary set up on these '07's. That whole banging thing is creepy. I can't see how that's good! Are they trying to compensate (no pun) for a primary/statarting system originally designed for 50 HP now work with high HO/TQ motors? Can anything be done to make it stronger? I could use a good Technical Dump again! Thanks man. Hoist! 8)
Hoist,
The June 2007 edition of American Iron has a multi page tech article on the '07 primary and how it evolved and advantages/ disadvantages of the gearing, amount of teeth on sprockets, vs. Bakers, etc. Reading it may shed some light as to why the teeth on the ring gear are now over stressed.
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Hoist,
The June 2007 edition of American Iron has a multi page tech article on the '07 primary and how it evolved and advantages/ disadvantages of the gearing, amount of teeth on sprockets, vs. Bakers, etc. Reading it may shed some light as to why the teeth on the ring gear are now over stressed.
Is it a true assessment or a "blow smoke up HD's asses" type review? I'll try to find it. Could you possiblt PDF it. My email's in my prifile if you can send it. Thanks for the info SE07. Hoist! 8)
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Is it a true assessment or a "blow smoke up HD's asses" type review? I'll try to find it. Could you possiblt PDF it. My email's in my prifile if you can send it. Thanks for the info SE07. Hoist! 8)
I scanned each page (9) as JPEG. It's readable. I'll email it tonite. It may take more than one email.
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I scanned each page (9) as JPEG. It's readable. I'll email it tonite. It may take more than one email.
Thank you very much. I'll digest it and see if I can use it to shed some additional light on issues we face in there for the '07s. :2vrolijk_21: Hoist! 8)
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HOIST,
Sorry to hear of your troubles. I had this same issue last aug with my SERK. Although, no damage to the starter or jack shaft. The ring gear had two teeth broke off. And by the way, since the starter was "ok" they would not warranty it foe the chrome upgrade, but it ended up not being an issue since they were on back order at the time, anyway. I just hope that all the readers take notice of this problem and get their scoots in at first notice of grinding. And not to mention the problems with the fly wheel, mine was off 56 thousands, I have an appointment for the 1000 mile service in the a.m. since the complete engine replacement.
SOKOOL