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[HEADPAN62]

Well got 40,000 miles on her and the cam chain tesioner shoes are shot,even starting to crack in some area's,caught it just in time....ride-on,headpan

[hogwander]

How did you know you needed to replace the tensioner? Was it making a noise or were you already inside checking something else and found it? My bike has 50K so I may need to look into this before a problem happens out on the road.

[HEADPAN62]

every 20,000 I do an inspection,,,

[Twolanerider]

every 20,000 I do an inspection,,,

If I'd have waited that long mine might have been self-reporting.

[HEADPAN62]

yeah, it will be every 15,000 now!!

[Bagger]

How did you know you needed to replace the tensioner? Was it making a noise or were you already inside checking something else and found it? My bike has 50K so I may need to look into this before a problem happens out on the road.

Check out this thread http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1167674428

[HEADPAN62]

well, here they are...

[HEADPAN62]

and...

[HEADPAN62]

remember,,only 40,000 miles on-em

[HEADPAN62]

thinkn about going back too an Evo....!!

[Fired00d]

thinkn about going back too an Evo....!!

Why not just try gear drive cams?

BTW - I resized your pictures for better viewing.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[HEADPAN62]

Thanks for the resize on the pic's my friend...I'm not good at all with the Pc!!.....I thought about the gear drive,read about their pro's & con's...still had the extended warranty so this trip was covered,,,still though,,,to have to do this every 30,000 miles  or so,,,or spend some bucks and get the gear drive....I have had my softail for 18 years,,the first motor had well over 100,000, trouble free miles(other then a fresh ring job & base gaskett replace & 60,000 miles)....dont get me wrong ,I love my glide,but an evo motor inside her and that would be cool with me !!..Evo is by far the most (RELIEABLE) motor harley has ever made....I figured the motor co. would had resolved this issue long ago with the tensioners on the twin cam.......

[Hoist!]

Hey HP, I agree with you on the Evo as HD's most reliable motor. My '85 FXWG still has the original Evo with shovelhead bottom end. I did a top end at 48K mi., because I wanted to get better performance. I did the heads, cams and put in 10:1's. That was 5 years ago and the thing still does 12.9's at the track. In '05 anyway, but I'm still running that same set-up. This 110" is my third TC motor. I traded my '00 in at 35k mi in '02 for my '03, and was basically ignorant about the shoes then. My '03 is being sold now and only has 8500 mi. No issues there. Now I have the 110" with all the crazy stories that go with it. It just seems that either by EPA req'ts. or trying to save $, HD is making us set-up our own motors for proper operation, to keep them from self-destructing. So in 2 Years, it's gear drive cams. Seems like the only solution. Quite frankly, I still can't comprehend why HD never did that. Looking at everyone's worn shoes, that system has to go! Hoist! 8-)

[Bagger]

remember,,only 40,000 miles on-em

I think 40K on shoes is pushing it just a little.  OK, alot.  No more than 20K, and either the shoes get swapped, or gear drive goes in.  You're lucky to have gotten that far without catastrophic self-destruction.

[HEADPAN62]

What's up hoist?? Man your 80 inch was runnin' pretty good....my 86'(pictured) has an s&s 93 inch motor,,jims oil  pump,jims roller rockers,jims hydrosolids in jims tappet blocks..branch heads  & lienweber cam,,and with no wheelie bars I was running 12 flat at the track ..almost had my 11 sec ticket..gave up at the track a long time ago though...she's just a street beater now!! ...

[Hoist!]

What's up hoist?? Man your 80 inch was runnin' pretty good....my 86'(pictured) has an s&s 93 inch motor,,jims oil  pump,jims roller rockers,jims hydrosolids in jims tappet blocks..branch heads  & lienweber cam,,and with no wheelie bars I was running 12 flat at the track ..almost had my 11 sec ticket..gave up at the track a long time ago though...she's just a street beater now!! ...

Thanks man. I'm running Sifton cams in my Evo's. I was thrilled when I broke 13. 12.92! I also built a 89" Evo Pro Street with S&S stroker flywheels, a bigger Sifton cam, HD Barrelsw/ S&S stroker pistons, and ported HD Heads. It's only about 425 lbs. I built that to get into the 11's. Never got the chance. They closed the track around here and it's still not broken in. No VIN yet! I was hoping for the 11 second club too! We should get together and ride some time. We're not too far away. Hope you make it to the York trip. Hoist! 8-)

[HEADPAN62]

I'm game for a ride anytime Hoist,,I will be in York to meet some of you fella's,,but it will be a 1 dayer,,,ride out in the am and head home at the end of  the day...I will let you know when my next NYC ride is.....Thinkn about a ride through Vermont on a long weekend before I go cross country this summer...take care ,,Headpan

[Hoist!]

I'm game for a ride anytime Hoist,,I will be in York to meet some of you fella's,,but it will be a 1 dayer,,,ride out in the am and head home at the end of  the day...I will let you know when my next NYC ride is.....Thinkn about a ride through Vermont on a long weekend before I go cross country this summer...take care ,,Headpan

Looking forward to it. PM or e-mail me when you're coming up. I'l try to work around it. We should probably put this thread back on track now! Later! Hoist! 8-)

[CVOJOE]

Headpan,
Did you also check the oil pump for damage (scoring, etc.) when you changed out the tensioners ? On my RG I just inspected or changed out the tensioners every 15-20K and it was worth the peace of mind. Service manager said that they had some luck changing out the chain to a different type, meaning that was the issue not the tensioner material. Not compatible for the long haul.

Next time it's opened up, maybe replace the oil pump with a Feuling?

 
Joe

[SPIDERMAN]

I posted this twice in other places. If you let these suckers go till they eat up your cams you get the whole deal replaced free under your ESP including the newer 06 hydraulic tensioners and new cams  They give you nothing for worn ones.

Guess nobody was reading my posts

B B

[HEADPAN62]

it was all covered under the esp....no hydrolic tensioners or new cams...I asked the service manager if there was an upgrade and he said nope,,,same old tensioner shoes..they did drop the oil pan and check the pump(guess they could not find all the pieces.......so did I get ripped?? should I had recieved the(hydrolic tensioners and new cams??)....confused!!

[CVOJOE]

You don't have to drop the pan to check the oil  pump. When removing the covers to inspect or change out the tensioners and cam plate, the oil pump is right there. I'd specifically ask if the inspected the oil pump for signs or wear or scoring of the surfaces, etc.
Joe

[HEADPAN62]

oh, I know where the oil pump is,,just letting everyone know what they did at the dealership...as I said I believe they were looking for all the pieces of the shoes,,that was the reason for dropping the oil tank...they did say everything looked fine with the pump..(they know me pretty well,,if it needed it,,I trust it would hed been replaced)..still curious about this hydrolic tensioner unit spyder was talking about,,,  and its pros and cons next to the gear drive(which is what I will install next time around unless I like the hydrolic upgrade spyder was disscussing)

[Twolanerider]

oh, I know where the oil pump is,,just letting everyone know what they did at the dealership...as I said I believe they were looking for all the pieces of the shoes,,that was the reason for dropping the oil tank...they did say everything looked fine with the pump..(they know me pretty well,,if it needed it,,I trust it would hed been replaced)..still curious about this hydrolic tensioner unit spyder was talking about,,,  and its pros and cons next to the gear drive(which is what I will install next time around unless I like the hydrolic upgrade spyder was disscussing)

Don't worry about not being treated correctly.  You didn't get screwed for not getting the extras.  Warranty or service contract repair requires them to return it to a correctly repaired functional state.  You caught it early so they had less they had to do.  Nothing more nor less than that.  If the failing parts had progressed to the point that the tensioners grenaded there would have been much more damage; and they'd have been obligated to replace much more (perhaps including the upgrades depending on what they could be talked in to).

It's a bit of a catch 22.  If you want them to replace a LOT under warranty you have to ride it to the point that a LOT has broken.  But be judicious, careful and catch it early and you've saved yourself a much worse failure and them a much larger job.

[SPIDERMAN]

I rode Elvis till I could hear the cam chain grinding and feel a big loss of power. As mentioned, I had asked before doing this if I would be good to go on my warranty if I did. Everything was shot to hell and San Diego H-D replaced the whole works as promised including the hydraulic tensioner upgrade which the MoCo covered.

I've said this before. Warranty service is a factor of how much effort your dealer is willing to put into it. San Diego H-D has always had a dedicated warranty coordinator. I've heard my share of bitching about other areas of the dealership, done some myself, but I've never heard anyone complain about warranty coverage. Not to say that the actual work being done was perfect. Beagle can tell you about that, BUT, they do work hard to make sure you get what expected when you bought the ESP. You need to establish this up front by talking to people who have bought bikes from different dealerships in your area. Make sure you ask a bunch of different people. Beags would say and I can't argue that I get specal treatment at San Diego H-D because I spend time hanging out with the owner and am friends with the managers. To that I say yes and no. Yes I do that, but no I don't think I'm anything to any of these people except a good customer.

B B

[HEADPAN62]

yeah ,I went to my Bro at the dealership and asked about this (hydrolic tensioner & cam upgrade) and he knows nothing..he said there was a cam plate upgrade a few years back,but that was it....he then went into an 2007 catalog and found in 07'.. all part #s were different in the(tensioner/cam )area..is that the upgrade you were talking about??..or are these guys I know real slow? ..or am I missing something....I thought these guys were up to par on service bullitins and all......but again..clueless they were about anything......can you fellas help out a confused brutha??headpan

[Hoist!]

yeah ,I went to my Bro at the dealership and asked about this (hydrolic tensioner & cam upgrade) and he knows nothing..he said there was a cam plate upgrade a few years back,but that was it....he then went into an 2007 catalog and found in 07'.. all part #s were different in the(tensioner/cam )area..is that the upgrade you were talking about??..or are these guys I know real slow? ..or am I missing something....I thought these guys were up to par on service bullitins and all......but again..clueless they were about anything......can you fellas help out a confused brutha??headpan

Hey HP. with all the problems with the original tensioner syatem, HD changed the design on the '07s. The new "hydraulic" tensioner system is suppose to be better than the original system. Why they just didn't change to gears, I'll never know, The jury's still out on whether this system is better than the original, but the gears have to be the most reliable. It irks me when we know more than the dealers though. Doesn't give me much confidence in them at all! Hoist!

[Talon]

I agree with Fired00d on the first page, GEARS! The tensioners may last 15,000 miles or more, but heard of them going with as little as 7,000!! Plus better cam timing with gears, especially after some miles. Besides just from a piece of mind, hate to be some where far from home and have one disintegrate!! I haven't upgraded cams yet, but I'll go gears! 

  

[HEADPAN62]

Thanks fella's for the reply's....It will be gear drives next time around for sure...I asume the new hydraloic set up will take a few years to find if their any more reliable then the origional set-up...till then still looking for a low mileige 1998 road glide....last year evo.....no tesioner issues and no motor noise.....why mess with a good thing!!!...ride-on headpan

[SPIDERMAN]

Hey HP. with all the problems with the original tensioner syatem, HD changed the design on the '07s. The new "hydraulic" tensioner system is suppose to be better than the original system. Why they just didn't change to gears, I'll never know, The jury's still out on whether this system is better than the original, but the gears have to be the most reliable. It irks me when we know more than the dealers though. Doesn't give me much confidence in them at all! Hoist!

Actually this change took place on the 06 Dyna models.

B B

[Hoist!]

Actually this change took place on the 06 Dyna models.

B B

Thanks B B. Sorry to mis-state that. The '06 Dynas were kinda '07 predecessors with 88" engines. Most of the changes to the '06 Dyna wound up on the '07s, including the 6-speed. Man does this place keep you on your toes! Hoist!

Make sure I got this one right. I talk out of my a$$ sometimes!

[SBB]

Make sure I got this one right. I talk out of my a$$ sometimes!

   

Should I comment on this?
 



 

[SPIDERMAN]

   

Should I comment on this?
 



 

Oh please do Chip, it's one of those things where even though it's too obvious, it's still gonna be fun. Let it fly buddy

B B

[Hoist!]

Oh please do Chip, it's one of those things where even though it's too obvious, it's still gonna be fun. Let it fly buddy

B B

Let her rip! I'm in a good mood for a change! I left it open for you, didn't I? Hoist!

[Chief]

Just to show that not all tensioners go kaput in short mileage, here is a picture of the choes out of my '99. The left shoe (Outer) has 20k on it, and the right one (Inner) has 53,300. I replaced the outer one because when I checked it at 30,000, it got loose and busted when it hit the crank, otherwise it did not need it. I'm replacing both of them now to alleviate any fear a prospective owner may have after hearing that they only last 10,000 miles.

The reason I took this pic, was to demonstrate that the shoes are not all ticking time bombs. They should be checked regularly, but they can last a long time.

Mobil 1 15/50 red cap. (Auto oil)

Chief

[SPIDERMAN]

Chief,
         I've talked myself blue in the face with different folks on this subject and here's my conclusion. The MoCo went with these tensioners because of producibility issues on the assembly line. No lash to set etc etc with these. While I've seen claims of increased hp with the gear driven, I've also read about Carl Hubbard's bike being pretty quick and he's running cam chains. My own experience with the pre hydraulic ones would indicate they last about 24k. Other folks have gotten well into the 40k range with em. In the end, I think the mileage you get out of them is related to your riding style to a degree. As to the gear driven cams, my personal attitude is that I'd like to try a set on Elvis since that bike is no longer going to be out on the open road to any degree. When the top end needs a redo, I plan on going with some of what the big boys on the site are always yakkin about. But for LD, I don't want to be looking for an indy shop to fix my bike in the middle of nowhere. I'd rather stay with all H-D internals and maybe lose a couple of hp, but gain the piece of mind in knowing there's several thousand H-D dealerships to fix it should it require such all over the world.

Just my $0.02

B B

[Chief]

Chief,
         I've talked myself blue in the face with different folks on this subject and here's my conclusion. The MoCo went with these tensioners because of producibility issues on the assembly line. No lash to set etc etc with these. While I've seen claims of increased hp with the gear driven, I've also read about Carl Hubbard's bike being pretty quick and he's running cam chains. My own experience with the pre hydraulic ones would indicate they last about 24k. Other folks have gotten well into the 40k range with em. In the end, I think the mileage you get out of them is related to your riding style to a degree. As to the gear driven cams, my personal attitude is that I'd like to try a set on Elvis since that bike is no longer going to be out on the open road to any degree. When the top end needs a redo, I plan on going with some of what the big boys on the site are always yakkin about. But for LD, I don't want to be looking for an indy shop to fix my bike in the middle of nowhere. I'd rather stay with all H-D internals and maybe lose a couple of hp, but gain the piece of mind in knowing there's several thousand H-D dealerships to fix it should it require such all over the world.

Just my $0.02

B B

I hear you B, and I agree with your ideas on easy to service.

As to how long they last, shoes disintegrating at 5,000 miles make for a better story than mine lasting more then 50,000. And at the rate they were wearing, could have gone 75,000. Why did I get such good life out of them? I don't know. Good clean oil maybe? Who knows? All I can say is I have the shoes and the odometer to prove that not all of them are ticking timebombs like they are painted to be.

I was always told EPA noise emissions played a part in them getting rid of the gears. Once again, who knows?

Chief

[SPIDERMAN]

I hear you B, and I agree with your ideas on easy to service.

As to how long they last, shoes disintegrating at 5,000 miles make for a better story than mine lasting more then 50,000. And at the rate they were wearing, could have gone 75,000. Why did I get such good life out of them? I don't know. Good clean oil maybe? Who knows? All I can say is I have the shoes and the odometer to prove that not all of them are ticking timebombs like they are painted to be.

I was always told EPA noise emissions played a part in them getting rid of the gears. Once again, who knows?

Chief

My dealer is #13 overall in the world and #1 in V-Rod sales. The owner is something of gearhead (pardon the pun) he rides all over the country attending H-D dealer meetings, Sturgis, Daytona and a host of Republican Party events as he is very active in politics. He is always having one of his techs build him a custom from different models and he likes his bikes to run and run fast. He told me he was interested in the gear driven cams himself and asked at a dealer meeting why H-D didn't go that route since they seemed to be a cheaper build. He was told that they were not conducive to the assembly line process. Nothing to do with noise. I'm only repeating what he told me. take it for what it's worth. My question would be OK fine, but why not offer them under the Screamin Eagle product line ?

B B

[HEADPAN62]

those shoes look real good for the mileage on-em...I guess its how you ride.....me personally...I ride it like I stole it!!!!...but go overboard on maintience and oil changes.....

[Talon]

Well the way I look at it, is if you pay over $30K for a bike it should have the best!!!! Harley's making a good buck on all their bikes, this would be a change that they should make from a reliability stand point, it doesn't look like there is any rime or reason on how long the tensinoners will last, unless you're going to check them every 8K to 10K.

[hd-dude]

While those shoes do not have very deep grooves in them they do have lots of "divots" These chunks of material come off and destry the oil pump.

I have had many cam chests apart and can testify to the value of frequent oil changes with a good synthetic oil. The bikes that run dyno oil in them show significantly more wear and larger divots in the shoes. I have a bike in the shop now with 14k on the clock and the shoes are worn twice as deep as those with large divots. The owner has not kept up on maintanence and used "whatever" oil when he did have it changed.