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[Hugh Janis]

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=25737.0

[Spike]

Here's something else to think about: Ford has
spent the last thirty years moving     all its factories
out of the  US     , claiming they can't make money
paying American  wages.

TOYOTA      has spent the last thirty years building
more than a dozen plants inside     the  US      . 
The last quarter's results:
TOYOTA      makes 4 billion in profits  while Ford 
racked up 9 billion in losses.


Truck wise I've always bought Toyota until this year and I just bought a new GMC...any guesses on were it was made..Mexico. The big 3 are like most American companies....too many chiefs and not enough Indians

[grc]

Ford is stuck with unions and Toyota is not.

Sorry, but the UAW didn't hire and then keep promoting Jacques Nasser, nor did it put all those do-nothing clowns on the board of directors.  The problems at Ford were created by mismanagement, plain and simple.  And having a bunch of family members controlling the majority of the voting stock (8 votes per share of family only B class stock) surely didn't help (how do you think all those do-nothing board members got their jobs?)

Jerry

BTW, I don't remember the American auto companies saying they couldn't make money because of union wages.  If you do a little research you will find that Toyota (and Honda and Nissan) pay very similar wages in their U.S. plants.  Where the American companies have a big issue is in the legacy costs related to pensions and health care. 

[Hoist!]

Sorry, but the UAW didn't hire and then keep promoting Jacques Nasser, nor did it put all those do-nothing clowns on the board of directors.  The problems at Ford were created by mismanagement, plain and simple.  And having a bunch of family members controlling the majority of the voting stock (8 votes per share of family only B class stock) surely didn't help (how do you think all those do-nothing board members got their jobs?)

Jerry

But I bet none of em forfeited their huge bonuses and stock options!!!

Hoist!

[BigR55]

Twelve years ago Toyota built a Tundra Truck factory ten miles north of here. It has brought much needed high paying jobs to our area and they have added the Sequoia and Seana lines. Now with the downturn in truck sales, they are consolidating the whole truck line to Texas.
Dodge has been running adds for 50% off.
Honda is moving all Goldwing production back to Japan.
GM and Ford are not the only ones in trouble in the US.

[Spike]

Twelve years ago Toyota built a Tundra Truck factory ten miles north of here. It has brought much needed high paying jobs to our area and they have added the Sequoia and Seana lines. Now with the downturn in truck sales, they are consolidating the whole truck line to Texas.
Dodge has been running adds for 50% off.
Honda is moving all Goldwing production back to Japan.
GM and Ford are not the only ones in trouble in the US.

Honda is going to make cars at the Goldwing plant. THE GW's will be part crated in like the rest of the metric lineups and assembled here in the US. I got my GMC at employee pricing plus 5k off 2 weeks ago. Sweet deals if you can afford to buy right now. I work in a union shop at UPS and yes we make great money if your full time BUT that's all we get (benefits included). Management however gets a minimum of $10k in stock options plus salary and bonuses (that's entry level management mind you). So imagine what the Big Dogs make. That's the problem.

[FLSTFI Dave]

Sorry, but the UAW didn't hire and then keep promoting Jacques Nasser, nor did it put all those do-nothing clowns on the board of directors.  The problems at Ford were created by mismanagement, plain and simple.  And having a bunch of family members controlling the majority of the voting stock (8 votes per share of family only B class stock) surely didn't help (how do you think all those do-nothing board members got their jobs?)

Jerry

BTW, I don't remember the American auto companies saying they couldn't make money because of union wages.  If you do a little research you will find that Toyota (and Honda and Nissan) pay very similar wages in their U.S. plants.  Where the American companies have a big issue is in the legacy costs related to pensions and health care. 

Union Wages are not the issue I agree, I was in a non union auto plant for a few years.  The issue is, at least with GM, they have three workers in a union plant for every one worker in a non union plant, and it is even worse in the maintenace end of it. 

AC/Delco spark plug plant for example had 8 maintenace guys per shift for the four spark plug lines, Denso had 2 maintenace guys per shift for four spark plug lines, and we made 100,000 more plugs in 24 hours than AC/Delco.  That is becuase under union rules you have to have a guy from each trade, where non union, all maintenance guys are multi craft.

Another big issue is the American auto compaines have way more management than Toyota or Honda.

[Robmay]

The "problem" is that most americans want to whine about what the "big dogs" make instead of going to work to become one themselves. I'll copy and paste my "outsourcing" perspective from another topic.............

If I could add my 2 cents about outsourcing from another perspective. I am in the middle of a Department of Labor audit. I have ALWAYS taken good care of all the people I am and have been responsible for, but they do not look at things objectively when they audit your wage and earnings. I won't go into details as it won't change whatever they decide. But if someone "says" you owe them more money after they are fired or quit, it is up to you to prove them wrong (guilty until proven innocent at your expense). So you either pay a pile of money to prove you are innocent, or pay a pile of money to the government as they have to make money for the time they spent doing the actual investigation.

But OUR government makes it such a pain in the a$$ to try and run a business.

Also, you have, what seems to me, the majority of people anymore who don't want to work and out of the one's that do, they feel you owe them something big just for doing the job they were hired to do. Or, they have no pride in workmanship. They just worry about making their 40 and going home, no matter what the quality of their work is. Isn't their fault if it comes out wrong, or its poorly made. Why would it be their fault? Nothing ever is. There is always some situation or circumstance or agency making new rules. Companies have to hire people just to keep up with the rules. I know, I just had to do this.

There then comes a time when big business say's "hey, we can get this kind of crappy workmanship "over there" except they will be more than HAPPY to have a job and they will be more then happy to do it for a lot less. In fact, since we don't have to jump thru all the governmental hoops, and hire people just to keep up with all of the red tape, feel good, bull Sh!t, we can make it over there, ship it back over here, get the same "craftmanship" that MOST (I didn't say ALL) of Americans are turning out now and make more money doing it with a lot less headaches and the people we hire to do it will actually appreciate it and it will be helping their communities..... (talk about your run on sentence).


just my opinion and we know what those are like....

[NWbiker]

I'll drive my Chevy and ride my Harley with no complaints but just a lot of pride.  

[FLSTFI Dave]

I'll drive my Chevy and ride my Harley with no complaints but just a lot of pride.  

Yep, my vehicles are American made, 03 Halrey, 06 GMC 3500, 07 Impala and wifes 07 Harley, and my soon to be 09 SERG

[BigR55]

If I could add my 2 cents about outsourcing from another perspective. I am in the middle of a Department of Labor audit. I have ALWAYS taken good care of all the people I am and have been responsible for, but they do not look at things objectively when they audit your wage and earnings. I won't go into details as it won't change whatever they decide. But if someone "says" you owe them more money after they are fired or quit, it is up to you to prove them wrong (guilty until pr oven innocent at your expense). So you either pay a pile of money to prove you are innocent, or pay a pile of money to the government as they have to make money for the time they spent doing the actual investigation.

But OUR government makes it such a pain in the a$$ to try and run a business.

In fact, since we don't have to jump Thrugh all the governmental hoops, and hire people just to keep up with all of the red tape, feel good, bull Sh!t, we can make it over there, ship it back over here, get the same "craftmanship" that MOST (I didn't say ALL) of Americans are turning out now and make more money doing it with a lot less headaches and the people we hire to do it will actually appreciate it and it will be helping their communities..... (talk about your run on sentence).
just my opinion and we know what those are like....

While all this is going on, nothing is being made by the people involved AND what is being made by the rest of the workers is being eaten up by the cost of our government "protecting" us.

Meanwhile, China is going through it's industrial revolution and making container loads of stuff for wally world and every other product we consume. We do not want to ignore the enviourment, worker safety and wages but there has to be something in between. We can not even make a football helmet much less an general aviation airplane.

Here is a Chinese scooter that sells for $1450.00, less than a CVO tourpack. Subtract the freight, import tax and profit from three points of distribution from that could not leave much more than $900.00 for the manufacturer and they still made a profit.

Fifty cents an hour would be a pay raise for me!
 

[Muley]

[
Here is a Chinese scooter that sells for $1450.00, less than a CVO tourpack. Subtract the freight, import tax and profit from three points of distribution from that could not leave much more than $900.00 for the manufacturer and they still made a profit.

Fifty cents an hour would be a pay raise for me!
 
[/quote]


And the damn thing even has a tour pack!!!