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Author Topic: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers  (Read 8540 times)

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rbmntx

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True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« on: December 22, 2006, 03:02:35 PM »

Based on the wealth of knowledge of this group, I'm sure someone can enlighten me on exhaust systems.  I'm wondering what is the downside of true duals.  Obviously the brain trusts at the MoCo believe a crossover pipe works best for some reason or they wouldn't add the extra expense of building it that way. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2006, 03:09:16 PM »

Quote
Based on the wealth of knowledge of this group, I'm sure someone can enlighten me on exhaust systems.  I'm wondering what is the downside of true duals.  Obviously the brain trusts at the MoCo believe a crossover pipe works best for some reason or they wouldn't add the extra expense of building it that way. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Hey rbm. Try this thread for starters. It might help. We all go thru it trying to figure what's best to use. ;) Hoist!  8-)

http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1165251184
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2006, 03:52:18 PM »

Quote
Hey rbm. Try this thread for starters. It might help. We all go thru it trying to figure what's best to use.

Thanks Hoist.  Sounds like Dale at Millers in Daytona is an expert.  Obviosly he favors V & H TD headers.  Wonder why Rineharts didn't enter into the equation?  I really like their looks over any of the Ovals.  I have a friend that's currently working in Daytona.  Maybe I'll have him go talk to Dale.  He would have an interest as well.

That string did not address my original question however about the downside of TD vs slip ons.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2006, 04:04:59 PM »

Quote

Thanks Hoist.  Sounds like Dale at Millers in Daytona is an expert.  Obviosly he favors V & H TD headers.  Wonder why Rineharts didn't enter into the equation?  I really like their looks over any of the Ovals.  I have a friend that's currently working in Daytona.  Maybe I'll have him go talk to Dale.  He would have an interest as well.

That string did not address my original question however about the downside of TD vs slip ons.

It addresses it a little at the end. Basically, the stock headpipes will provide better power/tq in the lower/mid rpm range, while the TD's work better on top and with HiPo engine mods. I'm going to see if the heat's bearable first, before going to the TD's on my new SERK. Either way, you have to do some kind of ECM mod too. There's many other threads on this too. Hoist!  8-)
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2006, 04:15:08 PM »

Quote
I'm going to see if the heat's bearable first, before going to the TD's on my new SERK.

That was actually my thinking as well..., starting with just slipons that I can still use if I find it beneficial to go TD.  My TC88 RK Classic is really unbearable at times in the Texas summer heat.  I'm hoping the TC110 is better but I'm expecting the worst based on some of the comments i'm seeing here.

Thanks for the guidance.  Have a Merry Christmas, Hoist
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2006, 07:44:32 PM »

Quote

That was actually my thinking as well..., starting with just slipons that I can still use if I find it beneficial to go TD.  My TC88 RK Classic is really unbearable at times in the Texas summer heat.  I'm hoping the TC110 is better but I'm expecting the worst based on some of the comments i'm seeing here.

Thanks for the guidance.  Have a Merry Christmas, Hoist

If you think the heat on the 88 is bad, just wait 'till you feel it coming off the back of a 103/110!!  One of the main advantages to TD's is that when the bike is tuned, each cylinder can be tuned individually, which is not really entirely possible with a crossover system.  One advantage of the V&H system is that the end of the header is the size of most slip ons.  The RH's are a stepped header, so if you get the entire system, and not just their slip-ons, no other muffs will fit on their headers to my knowledge.  I've got the RH's, so I'm biased as to how they look on the bike, but the V&H's are nice as well.  The warranty is better on the RH's, from what I've been told, and chrome is second to none.  It's tough to decide what to do...if you can go to some events and see different things and hear them, it will help.  My 2 cents....
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2006, 11:39:01 AM »

Quote
If you think the heat on the 88 is bad, just wait 'till you feel it coming off the back of a 103/110!!  
I've got the RH's, so I'm biased as to how they look on the bike, but the V&H's are nice as well...

Thanks TC, that explains some things I was unclear on regarding the advantage of TD's.  If the 110 is hotter than the 88 then I really have to do something.  I was hoping the oil cooler on the 110's would make it more bearable.

I assume the RH's you refer to are Rineharts, right?  And you have the TD setup?  Wouldn't have a picture or two would you?
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2006, 12:07:48 PM »

Quote

Thanks TC, that explains some things I was unclear on regarding the advantage of TD's.  If the 110 is hotter than the 88 then I really have to do something.  I was hoping the oil cooler on the 110's would make it more bearable.

I assume the RH's you refer to are Rineharts, right?  And you have the TD setup?  Wouldn't have a picture or two would you?

I believe TC's correct, but since it's simple to bolt on the mufflers first, I'm very curious to see what happens with the stock headpipes first with the ECM mods. I believe the leanness is what causes most of the heat. The rear cylinder, although hotter, might still allow the stock headpipes to be bearable with ECM mods, without giving up the low/mid range power you'd lose to the TD's with a stock engine. You can always add the TD's if it's still not bearable. As of now, that's what I'm doing. ;) Hoist!  8-)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 11:37:08 PM by Hoist »
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2006, 02:48:31 PM »

Thanks again Hoist and TC.  I have one more (very subjective) question.  I like the looks of the the Rineharts but can't say that I've ever heard them.  How do they sound?  I guess what I'm looking for is: 1. do they have a really deep tone?  2. how loud are they?  For comparison purposes, I have SE slash cuts on my 04 RK.  How would you compare the Rineharts to them?
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2006, 04:04:19 PM »

Quote
Thanks again Hoist and TC.  I have one more (very subjective) question.  I like the looks of the the Rineharts but can't say that I've ever heard them.  How do they sound?  I guess what I'm looking for is: 1. do they have a really deep tone?  2. how loud are they?  For comparison purposes, I have SE slash cuts on my 04 RK.  How would you compare the Rineharts to them?

I have used Rineharts on my past several bikes and on my current 07 SEUC...to answer your questions..IMO....1.  Yes, they do have a deep tone.  2.  The have a deeper and louder sound then most.  They definitly are louder then the SE slash cut pipes.  They are not crazy loud with normal riding, but can be somewhat obnoxious if you really jump on it.

Scott
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2006, 06:42:14 PM »

I would agree.  I had SE slash cuts on my 05 RKC and the sound was nice (you knew it was a harley but not too loud).  I'm putting rinehart duals on my 07 SERK primarily because they perform better and to eliminate the cross over pipe and therefore hopefully some of the heat.  Alghough they are louder they are not obnoxious unless you want them to be.  There still on back order at my dealer though, but I hope to get them soon....

Jim
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2006, 07:51:28 PM »

Quote
Thanks again Hoist and TC.  I have one more (very subjective) question.  I like the looks of the the Rineharts but can't say that I've ever heard them.  How do they sound?  I guess what I'm looking for is: 1. do they have a really deep tone?  2. how loud are they?  For comparison purposes, I have SE slash cuts on my 04 RK.  How would you compare the Rineharts to them?

Are you talking about the one-piece SE slash cuts?  I had the slash-ups on my SEEG for the first 15,000 miles and then (finally) went to Rineharts.  The Rineharts are definitely louder, but the sound is totally different, too.  It's a much, much deeper sound, more "muscular" and less "tinny."

As far as the "downsides," like Hoist said you will loose a little low-end with a true dual, but will gain it on the top end.  Based on the dyno sheets I've seen of the new 110's and the way they've moved the torque curve of the motor down vs. the 103's, I doubt it would really be that noticeable, particularly on a somewhat lighter weight (vs. an Electra Glide) Road King.

And, yes, when TC mentioned "RH" above, he was referring to Rineharts.

Here are a couple pictures of my bike:



« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 07:52:34 PM by 103tHunDer »
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2006, 09:55:34 PM »

Quote
Thanks again Hoist and TC.  I have one more (very subjective) question.  I like the looks of the the Rineharts but can't say that I've ever heard them.  How do they sound?  I guess what I'm looking for is: 1. do they have a really deep tone?  2. how loud are they?  For comparison purposes, I have SE slash cuts on my 04 RK.  How would you compare the Rineharts to them?

To my ear, there is a lot of difference in the SE slash cut that are all one piece, and the SE Pro slips with the Billet ends, which are a separate piece from the body of the muff.  The one piece are a little more "tinney" than the Billet end model.  I ran the SE Billet (slash down) model for 7K + miles and had no complaints about the sound...nice, deep, and throaty.  I recently put RH TD's on, and absolutely love them!!  Deeper sound, and louder, but only if you romp on them...just cruising, I would say the RH's are louder then as well, but not too much for my tastes.  Somewhere, I read that they are about 3db's louder than the SE's I was running.  To my eye, nothing looks better than the RH's on a bagger.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2006, 02:07:56 AM »

Don't forget the advantage of the true duals is that they make the starter much more visible which then requires an OCD moment when you write the check for the Chrome Starter to fill the black void. ;D
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2006, 04:45:58 PM »

Quote
Don't forget the advantage of the true duals is that they make the starter much more visible which then requires an OCD moment when you write the check for the Chrome Starter to fill the black void. ;D

Haven't bitten that one off yet, Roger...keep hoping the starter will croak on it's own.  Meanwhile, I've got the solenoid cover and just got the neutral switch cover and Oil Filler Spout, so that will help a bit.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2006, 06:46:19 PM »

Quote

Haven't bitten that one off yet, Roger...keep hoping the starter will croak on it's own.  Meanwhile, I've got the solenoid cover and just got the neutral switch cover and Oil Filler Spout, so that will help a bit.

I hated the UFBS so I went for it, did the neutral switch and solenoid cover.

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2006, 07:18:04 AM »

Get the January issue of the American Iron mag and read the Exhaust Basics 101 article. They compare brands (Bassani, RH, V&H etc) and True Duals vs Crossovers for baggers. Lots of great info that will make your decision easier. Merry Xmas [smiley=santa3.gif]!
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2006, 10:03:35 AM »

Thanks ALL!!  I hope everyone had a great Christmas and Santa resolved some of your OCD issues.  I really appreciate  everyone's input.  Thanks for the pictures HunDer, great looking scoot.

Well, I've made up my mind based on what I've learned from you all.  I'm going to go ahead with the RH slipons to start, see how it goes with heat this summer then decide if TD's are in my future.  I'm going to assume that it's okay to stick the RH's on now since I have less than 500 miles on my bike.

Anyone have any suggestions on where to buy the Rineharts (read that as "cheapest").  
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2006, 12:13:23 PM »

Quote
Thanks ALL!!  I hope everyone had a great Christmas and Santa resolved some of your OCD issues.  I really appreciate  everyone's input.  Thanks for the pictures HunDer, great looking scoot.

Well, I've made up my mind based on what I've learned from you all.  I'm going to go ahead with the RH slipons to start, see how it goes with heat this summer then decide if TD's are in my future.  I'm going to assume that it's okay to stick the RH's on now since I have less than 500 miles on my bike.

Anyone have any suggestions on where to buy the Rineharts (read that as "cheapest").  

Someone chime in here, but I'm under the impression that the RH's have stepped headpipes and their mufflers only mount on their True-Dual headpipes. [smiley=confused5.gif] I assume they have a larger connection size than stock. Hoist!  8-)
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2006, 12:51:10 PM »

Quote

Someone chime in here, but I'm under the impression that the RH's have stepped headpipes and their mufflers only mount on their True-Dual headpipes. [smiley=confused5.gif] I assume they have a larger connection size than stock. Hoist!  8-)
Rinehart's are also offered in a slip-on version. They also have a eagle beak slip on which might be a nice touch on a "Screamin' Eagle". [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

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« Last Edit: December 26, 2006, 12:52:15 PM by flhtcse2004 »
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2006, 12:56:12 PM »

Quote
Rinehart's are also offered in a slip-on version. They also have a eagle beak slip on which might be a nice touch on a "Screamin' Eagle". [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

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Thanks dood. I assume that you can only use these mufflers on stock headpipes or V&H TD's then? You couldn't try them on a stock headpipe set-up and then convert to their stepped headpipes after if you wanted, without changing muflers too? They refer to a "BUB Cross Dresser II header/heat shields" on that page. What kind of headers are these? Oh this is so confusing! [smiley=confused5.gif] Hoist! 8-)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2006, 12:58:40 PM by Hoist »
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2006, 01:16:37 PM »

Quote

Thanks dood. I assume that you can only use these mufflers on stock headpipes or V&H TD's then? You couldn't try them on a stock headpipe set-up and then convert to their stepped headpipes after if you wanted, without changing muflers too? They refer to a "BUB Cross Dresser II header/heat shields" on that page. What kind of headers are these? Oh this is so confusing! [smiley=confused5.gif] Hoist! 8-)
Don't think these slip-ons will work on the stepped head pipes. (I could be wrong, but since other slip-ons will not fit them I would think their own wouldn't work either) Look here - Cross Dresser II Headers and Heat Shields for info on this system.

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2006, 01:23:26 PM »

Quote
Don't think these slip-ons will work on the stepped head pipes. (I could be wrong, but since other slip-ons will not fit them I would think their own wouldn't work either) Look here - Cross Dresser II Headers and Heat Shields for info on this system.

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Looks like a good alternative to V&H TD's. Anyone know which would happen to be better quality, fit/finish, mounting hardware/brackets, bends, less subject to cracking, etc.? [smiley=confused5.gif] Thanks. ;) Hoist!  8-)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2006, 01:23:42 PM by Hoist »
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2006, 02:16:51 PM »

Quote
Someone chime in here, but I'm under the impression that the RH's have stepped headpipes and their mufflers only mount on their True-Dual headpipes. [smiley=confused5.gif] I assume they have a larger connection size than stock.

Here's what Motorcycle Pro Shop says about them fitting stock headpipes:
Product ID: 1801-0100    Category: Motorcycle
MUFFLER,SLIP-ON 95-06 FLT
Description: High lustre chrome finish finish with a black anodized aluminum end cap. 3 1/2" Eagle Break mufflers for FL and Softail Springer Classic models. [highlight]3 1/4" slip-on mufflers work with stock headers and heat shields.[/highlight] Mounting hardware included. Sold in pairs. Designed and built in the U.S.A.
Price:  $524.95

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2006, 02:24:09 PM »

Quote

Here's what Motorcycle Pro Shop says about them fitting stock headpipes:
Product ID: 1801-0100    Category: Motorcycle
MUFFLER,SLIP-ON 95-06 FLT
Description: High lustre chrome finish finish with a black anodized aluminum end cap. 3 1/2" Eagle Break mufflers for FL and Softail Springer Classic models. [highlight]3 1/4" slip-on mufflers work with stock headers and heat shields.[/highlight] Mounting hardware included. Sold in pairs. Designed and built in the U.S.A.
Price:  $524.95


Didn't realize RH had both types of systems. I guess their step-down TD system is potentially higher performance TD's than their slip on type, but gives you the convience of stock mounting connection size. Hoist!  8-)
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2006, 02:25:07 PM »

Quote

Here's what Motorcycle Pro Shop says about them fitting stock headpipes:
Product ID: 1801-0100    Category: Motorcycle
MUFFLER,SLIP-ON 95-06 FLT
Description: High lustre chrome finish finish with a black anodized aluminum end cap. 3 1/2" Eagle Break mufflers for FL and Softail Springer Classic models. [highlight]3 1/4" slip-on mufflers work with stock headers and heat shields.[/highlight] Mounting hardware included. Sold in pairs. Designed and built in the U.S.A.
Price:  $524.95

I think what hoist is asking is if you get the slip-ons now, and later get the Rinehart TD's can you use the slip-ons on them. I'm thinking that since the slip-ons will work on existing pipes, and the mufflers on the TD's are stepped headers (and you can't use other brands of slip-ons because of fitament issues) then you will not be able to use the slip-on mufflers (by Rinehart) on the Rinehart TD's.

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2006, 02:28:36 PM »

you boys talking about cross dressers are starting to worry the rest of us out here. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2006, 02:31:20 PM »

Quote
you boys talking about cross dressers are starting to worry the rest of us out here. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]
Trust me if it had not been for me going back and reviewing the site to see what Hoist was talking about I would have never commented on it. [smiley=nervous.gif] ;D

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2006, 02:35:23 PM »

Quote
Trust me if it had not been for me going back and reviewing the site to see what Hoist was talking about I would have never commented on it. [smiley=nervous.gif] ;D

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I'm starting to lose track of what I'm talking about anymore anyway d00d. It's been a partying week! [smiley=drink.gif] Hoist!  8-)
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2006, 03:13:44 PM »

Quote
I think what hoist is asking is if you get the slip-ons now, and later get the Rinehart TD's can you use the slip-ons on them. I'm thinking that since the slip-ons will work on existing pipes, and the mufflers on the TD's are stepped headers (and you can't use other brands of slip-ons because of fitament issues) then you will not be able to use the slip-on mufflers (by Rinehart) on the Rinehart TD's.

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You are, of course, correct, Gary...If you buy the RH slips to fit the stock header pipe size, they will not work later on if you go with the RH true dual headers.  They would however, work with the V&H TD headers.

Of course, if you ever make significantly more power with changes to the engine, the RH's step header system starts coming into it's own.  Others will make good power too though.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2006, 03:20:59 PM »

Quote

You are, of course, correct, Gary...If you buy the RH slips to fit the stock header pipe size, they will not work later on if you go with the RH true dual headers.  They would however, work with the V&H TD headers.

Of course, if you ever make significantly more power with changes to the engine, the RH's step header system starts coming into it's own.  Others will make good power too though.

Thanks Terry. Do you know which stock size TD's are better, V&H or RH? I'm looking at the next step after I try the S&S slip-ons only first, if the heat's still not acceptable. Hoist!  8-)
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2006, 03:47:36 PM »

Quote

Thanks Terry. Do you know which stock size TD's are better, V&H or RH? I'm looking at the next step after I try the S&S slip-ons only first, if the heat's still not acceptable. Hoist!  8-)


Hoist...I'm not as up on the dyno numbers on one vs the other on the same build/tune as some others might be.  I know some people have some strong opinions about the quality of one versus the other, and that typically always is in favor of the RH's because of the quality of the chrome and the customer service from Karen at Rinehart.

Personally, I've seen a lot of pipes on bikes, and while taking nothing away from any other brand, my personal favorite in the looks department is the RH system.  I like the way they sound as well, but that is a very subjective choice.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2006, 04:04:56 PM »

Addendum:  I don't see where RH makes a set of stock sized TD headers for an 07 bike.

I guess it boils down to this...if you like the looks of the RH mufflers but want to try the stock headers first to see about heat issues, etc, get the RH slips...then later if you wanted to do TD headers, you could always go with the V&H header pipes and everything would work.  From what I'm reading for the 07 bikes, it's the entire system from RH if you want TD's, as anything prior to that only has one O2 sensor bung.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2006, 09:20:27 AM »

Quote
I think what hoist is asking is if you get the slip-ons now, and later get the Rinehart TD's can you use the slip-ons on them. I'm thinking that since the slip-ons will work on existing pipes, and the mufflers on the TD's are stepped headers (and you can't use other brands of slip-ons because of fitament issues) then you will not be able to use the slip-on mufflers (by Rinehart) on the Rinehart TD's.

With the discussion about fitment, I've just about decided to abandon my original idea of starting off with slip-ons and bite the bullet with the RH TD's.  One question however..., I can't find anything that describes what is meant by "stepped header".  What exactly does that mean?  I assume there is a larger opening where the muffler fits the header but what else?  How is it stepped?  I think better in pictures so if anyone has one, i'd appreciate seeing it.

Thx again.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2006, 09:30:36 AM »

Different manufacturers use different methods to combat reversion (exhaust gases going backward). Stepped headers is one design where a smaller head pipe is staged within a larger one to make it work better. Thats why its better to get a matched high quality  True Dual system (imo) and you wont also have any annoying deacceleration popping you get with most slipons.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2006, 11:13:46 AM »

Quote

With the discussion about fitment, I've just about decided to abandon my original idea of starting off with slip-ons and bite the bullet with the RH TD's.  One question however..., I can't find anything that describes [highlight]what is meant by "stepped header".  What exactly does that mean?  I assume there is a larger opening where the muffler fits the header but what else?  How is it stepped?  I think better in pictures so if anyone has one, i'd appreciate seeing it.[/highlight]

Thx again.
rbmntx,

Don't have a decent photo, so I'll post a home made drawing.  

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2006, 11:16:29 AM »

Quote
rbmntx,

Don't have a decent photo, so I'll post a home made drawing.  

Jerry
Jerry,
I tried to find an explanation of why this (stepped header) is a better system, could you possible explain it? TIA.

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2006, 12:11:26 PM »

Thanks Jerry, I appreciate the drawing.  

Firedood, I know enough about fluid dynamics to be dangerous.  I know that as pipe diameter increases, internal flow pressure decreases.  To my way of thinking that reduces back pressure.  I don't know how that translates to better performance though.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2006, 12:45:41 PM »

 
Uh oh! [smiley=nervous.gif]  This has all the markings of another "covalent bonding" discussion. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2006, 12:55:43 PM »

Quote

Uh oh! [smiley=nervous.gif]  This has all the markings of another "covalent bonding" discussion. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

Oh I hope not. I got lost last time that happened. ;) [smiley=dizzy2.gif] [smiley=duhk.gif]

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2006, 01:14:44 PM »

'd00d,

I don't claim to be an expert on exhaust system dynamics; with that in mind I'll try to provide a basic answer to your question anyway. [smiley=confused5.gif]  Like many things, head pipe diameter is a compromise.  A small diameter will help maintain exhaust velocity at low engine speeds, thus helping to scavenge the exhaust gases and reduce reversion (exhaust backflowing into the combustion chamber and diluting the fresh mixture).  A larger diameter pipe will allow for better scavenging and flow at high speeds.  The "stepped" design attempts to give you the best of both worlds, with an initial small diameter for low speeds, opening up to the larger diameter to allow for increased flow at higher speeds as the gases expand.

A similar idea was the "torque cones" that you could buy to install in your head pipes at the cylinder head.  They were reasonably effective on the EVO's to reduce reversion and improve low and mid range performance with low restriction pipes, especially drag pipes.

Jerry
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2006, 04:13:44 PM »

A little more to the discussion.  When the exhaust valve opens there is a supersonic or near-supersonic pulse that shoots down the pipe ahead of the exhaust flow, mostly along the wall.  When it reaches something, like a baffle or even the end of the pipe, part of it is reflected back up the pipe where it creates "back pressure".  But it's not really back pressure, just what most people think of when they hear the term.  Back pressure isn't the enemy, it's this reflected pulse or reversion.  The best example is on a 2-stroke engine where the pipe length and shape is tuned to have the reflected pulse arrive just before the exhaust port closes.  Two cycles being what they are, a little air-fuel mixture goes out the port before it closes (why they run dirty), and the pulse pushes it back in.  It's a very low pressure forced induction.  The problem with 4-cycles is there isn't any air-fuel mixture coming out the exhaust in most cases (you people with massively overlapping cams aside), just stuff you want to get rid of, so the pulse just pushes exhaust back into the cylinder.  Slash-cut pipes aren't just for show.  The hope (and it actually works) is that without a sudden end to the pipe that a straight cut one has there is less of a reflection.  Welding lolli-pops in the outlet does the same thing, you vary the reflection until you find the place where things cancel each other out the best.  Torque cones, along with increasing port velocity, keep the exiting pulse off the side wall and keep the reflected pulse, which is along the wall, away from the port.

The step in the header is doing the same thing, it breaks up the pulse clinging to the wall on the way out, and gives a surface on which a return pulse can reflect back off of.  No covalent bonds or Brownian motion involved!
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2006, 04:27:17 PM »

I am so glad i dont worry apout the swirl marks covalantly clinging inside my pipes due to pink floyd's blaring from the HK..   Thanks for the laymans explanation  gecko   good post [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2007, 01:25:27 PM »

 [smiley=pepper.gif]Well I did it!  Enough with the over analyzing every possible aspect and scenario.  I finally threw up my hands and decided to order the Rinehart slip-ons.  If, in the summer time I decide I need to run TD's to keep from burning my butt off, then I'll add the V&H TDs.

The slip-ons should be here Wednesday and if I'm finally over the flu by then will have them on my SERK by Wednesday evening.  I'll take a picture and even see if I can record a sound bite and attach it.

Okay, now that it's a done deal, it's time for everyone to start coming out of the woodwork telling me "what I should have done instead".

By the way, I bought them at Cycle Spot at 20% off, no tax, & free shipping if anyone is interested. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2007, 02:04:19 PM »

What was the total co$t??
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2007, 02:13:08 PM »

Quote
[smiley=pepper.gif]Well I did it!  Enough with the over analyzing every possible aspect and scenario.  I finally threw up my hands and decided to order the Rinehart slip-ons.  If, in the summer time I decide I need to run TD's to keep from burning my butt off, then I'll add the V&H TDs.

The slip-ons should be here Wednesday and if I'm finally over the flu by then will have them on my SERK by Wednesday evening.  I'll take a picture and even see if I can record a sound bite and attach it.

Okay, now that it's a done deal, [highlight]it's time for everyone to start coming out of the woodwork telling me "what I should have done instead[/highlight]".

By the way, I bought them at Cycle Spot at 20% off, no tax, & free shipping if anyone is interested. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

RBM, you know what you should have done? Exactly what you did. You can't pick the wrong ones if you like them and the way they sound! ;) Hoist!
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2007, 02:43:11 PM »

Quote
What was the total co$t??

The list price is the same as everywhere else, $524.95 but, if you register on their website and order them on line they are $419.41.  Registration is free, anything over $250 is shipped free and unless you live in AZ, it will likely be tax free.

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2007, 11:03:19 PM »

rbmntx,

Hey congrats on the decision. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  We will definitely need to hook up as I would love to hear what they (slip ons) sound like.  May be the way I end up going as well.

Hope you are getting over the flu.  It's going around these here parts very aggressively.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2007, 02:33:46 PM »

Thanx CBMan.  I see where you are considering V & H.  If you get them we'll have to hook up to compare the two.  

As for getting over the flu..., it's slow but I'm making progress.  I took my girlfriend to the airport this morning and even though it's 48 degrees outside I was seeing all kinds of bikes out.  Made me real jeolous.  I was going to try to take a quick ride but decided that with the dizziness I'm still having from my inner ear problems, it wouldn't be a good idea.  Maybe tomorrow.  (sigh)
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2007, 11:10:19 PM »

The guy in the brown truck brought my RH slip ons yesterday afternoon.  Naturally, I had to put them on last night.  First impression is they look damn good.  Really good chrome and the black tips really stand out on the Black Ice SERK.

I haven't ridden it yet but, keeping in mind that I was in the garage with the door closed, I cranked it up and HOLY CRAP those puppies are loud..., but nice and deep.  I'm sure some of it was echoing off the garage walls but they seem to be a lot louder than my old Screamin' Eagle one piece slip ons.  I think I would equate the sound to Thunderheaders.  I'm going to try to take it out at least for a ride around the block before the nasty weather hits here this weekend.  Pictures to follow.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2007, 08:38:08 AM »

rbmntx,

Congrats on the RH's [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  You definitely need to post a pic or two so I can check it out.  How 'bout a video with some sound [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

Looks like our DFW weather is going to get real crappy for the next 4-5 days.  I'll be in Japan so I get to miss it ;D

Are you considering joining the Hot Springs Rally?  We could cruise up together if you decide to go.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2007, 12:01:49 PM »

Quote
The guy in the brown truck brought my RH slip ons yesterday afternoon.  Naturally, I had to put them on last night.  First impression is they look damn good.  Really good chrome and the black tips really stand out on the Black Ice SERK.

I haven't ridden it yet but, keeping in mind that I was in the garage with the door closed, I cranked it up and HOLY CRAP those puppies are loud..., but nice and deep.  I'm sure some of it was echoing off the garage walls but they seem to be a lot louder than my old Screamin' Eagle one piece slip ons.  I think I would equate the sound to Thunderheaders.  I'm going to try to take it out at least for a ride around the block before the nasty weather hits here this weekend.  Pictures to follow.

Glad you're happy with the RH's...it's that 110 that's making it hit such a hard lick at idle   [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]  At cruising speeds, they're not bad, but when you twist, they'll talk to you...let us know what you think after you take the ride!!
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2007, 12:18:50 PM »

 [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] A guy just can't catch a break.  I'd love to get out for a ride to see how I like the RH's but the weather just won't cooperate.  Now we have an ice storm forecast through Monday.  Sheesh!  
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2007, 01:36:28 PM »

Raining all weekend in Maryland, but I get to go to the International Motorcycle Show at the DC Convention center :)
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2007, 01:39:10 PM »

Quote
Raining all weekend in Maryland, but I get to go to the International Motorcycle Show at the DC Convention center :)
Gets some pictures for us if you can. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] I'm sure there will be all kinds of new stuff for our bikes there.

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2007, 06:17:33 PM »

Dood, Saw Dennis Manning and his speed rocket there. Nice guy, he was mobbed and taking the time to chat to everyone he could. HD had a big show area big about a dozen bikes including a orange/black ice SEUC and a cobalt blue SERK(it was definitely the bike everyone wanted to sit on). DC Cruisers had some friendly biker beauties hanging around working the tip jar! [smiley=drink.gif]
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2007, 06:23:21 PM »

Quote
...... DC Cruisers had some friendly biker beauties hanging around working the tip jar! [smiley=drink.gif]
You didn't bring me any pictures to take to the hospital with me tomorrow for inspiration to get thru therapy? :o ;D

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« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 06:24:28 PM by flhtcse2004 »
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:pumpkin: 2004 Screamin’ Eagle Electra Glide :pumpkin:
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2007, 08:11:05 PM »

I got an autographed biker beauties magazine! Its yours ;D
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