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Author Topic: New 117 Sumping  (Read 17269 times)

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hawgzilla

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2019, 08:59:09 AM »

Just want to add that the computer doesn’t know if it’s full of oil or even if it doesn’t have a drop of oil.  It has no way to monitor oil levels.  There is no way to cause an issue running the oil 1/2 to a full quart low.  Running 1/2 quart low is very smart in my opinion.
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J.D.

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2019, 09:52:04 AM »

If Harley doesn't know, they are even more incompetent than I've always assumed they were.  There is no doubt they or their outside consultants know exactly what's causing the sumping issue.  There is also no doubt a real fix would require a redesign that would cost big bucks and put them on the hook for some serious warranty costs when the guys with older bikes found out about the redesign.  Band-Aids are all you will get.  Just think about all the other long term problems they've had that never received a proper fix.  The list is long.

JMHO - Jerry

This is it.  Harley again has shot themselves in the foot and painted themselves into a corner.

At this point most can agree they have a sumping problem on the M8 and multiple attempts to resolve it with part revisions has not resolved the issue.

1. Fix it right away with a major design change is big money but then the platform moves forward without the issue.  2. Limp it along and alienate your loyal base but save up front money.  Problem I see for them chosing #2 is the reputation of a relatively low powered and problematic drivetrain on a relatively expensive bike which these days is a recipe for disaster.

I feel bad for these owners who are dealing with this.
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grc

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2019, 10:30:42 AM »

Just want to add that the computer doesn’t know if it’s full of oil or even if it doesn’t have a drop of oil.  It has no way to monitor oil levels.  There is no way to cause an issue running the oil 1/2 to a full quart low.  Running 1/2 quart low is very smart in my opinion.

I agree except when you get to running a full quart low.  A pint low is considered to be within the normal operating range, a full quart is marginal at best.  Remember, that motor oil has many functions.  It is a lubricant and friction reducer of course, but it is also a coolant.  That's a very important function in something that runs as hot as a Harley engine.  It also removes and suspends contaminants (I still remember when they called it detergent oil back in the day), and prevents acid buildup due to combustion byproducts.  Reduce the amount of oil below the design parameters and you can negatively affect those and other characteristics.

It shouldn't be necessary to run less than the specified amount of oil in any engine in order to cover up flaws in the engine design.  The fact that many of us ran a pint low to cover up the breather issue on the Twin Cams doesn't make it right, it just points out how Harley constantly creates problems and then sits back while the customers and the aftermarket attempt to address those problems because Harley doesn't.  Btw, unless you run an M8 about 4.5 quarts low, reducing the amount of oil is not going to fix sumping. 

Jerry
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yobtaf103

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2019, 06:26:41 PM »

Another problem is loose piston oilers, but why  that would afflict CVO's more so ?
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Spiked Olive

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2019, 07:46:36 PM »

I have 16k trouble free miles on my 2017 CVO 114.

My best friend as 13K on a 2017 Trike 107. He has had zero issues.

Another riding buddy has 8k miles on his 2017 Limited 107. Zero issues.

Yes I know the sumping is a real deal and the transfer is a real deal. But these three bikes I know well with no problems at all.

So the reason for the post is to share a thought that has crossed my mind. Maybe the design is good. Maybe the testing was good and trouble free in development. So why do some have issues and others do not? Maybe a part is not manufactured to specification. Or the tolerance not to the design spec that got past quality control? It should not happen, but certainly could. If they all 100% were doing it then that would be a huge design flaw.

I'm no expert but my dealership told me about this issue. They asked me a lot of questions when I carried it in for the first two services to see if I was experiencing any of the symptoms. They confirmed what I have read online and they shared some real nightmare stories about a couple of bikes they sold. But I can only trust them when they say the vast majority have been trouble free.

Good luck to all those dealing with this issue.
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Robert1

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2019, 10:40:04 PM »

My thoughts are most harleys are used as bar hoppers and see little mileage, which is support by the fact you can go buy a 5 or 10 year old bike with less than 10k on it, so we know it is left in the garage most of the time
Secondly most do not ride hard or for extended period of time at higher speeds, so they do not work that hard
For me i normally do not stop unless i need gas or food, and we ride at a fairly good clip.
From what i have read most M8's with the problems are the ones with the stage 3 or 4 upgrades or those who have taken the bike out for some hard rides.  I think it is safe to say if you are doing stage 3 or 4 upgrades you are doing it because you tend to ride harder than most
I have read some are recommending you just pull over when the bike is sumping and let it idle upright for 5 or 10 minutes and move on as a work around.  I am not interested in a work around or having to stop every 100 miles or so
I think it is a simple case of the manufacture needing to stand up and get behind the product they are sending out the door
I have now had 3 ridding buddies cancel there new bikes with Harley and 1 has purchased an Indian.  But i do not think they realy care by how they have been handling this the last 3 years
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Tn.Heritage

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2019, 01:43:50 PM »

It would help if you put up a link to Durwood's report so all of us can reference the same info.

I understand you were just repeating what Durwood said, but now you are (1) comparing a lawnmower one quart too full to an M8 or TC running at the designed oil level; (2) comparing the TC breather/oil usage problem to the M8 sumping.  Both of those statements are comparing apples to kangaroos.
Dude, I'm not comparing the M8 to lawnmower engine, just making a statement, I can't help you do not have the capacity to see what I was trying to say. Look it up on the HTT site.
So I copied this from that site.
 
So your running basically the same amount in your M8 as you did in a Twin Cam now, correct ?
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Re: Sumping issues solved
« Reply #183 on: May 21, 2019, 06:46:53 AM »
Quote
Quote from: metaliser on May 21, 2019, 04:22:05 AM
Quote from: Durwood on May 20, 2019, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: BigT on May 14, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
I started this thread last September when I thought the seal was the solution. I just pulled the crank position sensor on my 124” build and got about 7oz out. All of the prior checks on my previous 117” with the Harley cover with the seal resulted in 1 oz or less. I’m not seeing full blown sumping issues but 7oz of oil sloshing around in the lower end can’t be helping performance! I wonder if anyone with the Fueling pump has checked after prolonged high rpm runs?  I also have installed a vent on the oil fill....
Big T you might try running your oil level a quart low.

That's what I did after mine sumped 2 quarts and now I am getting 4.5 oz from the sump plug, not the CPS.

Besides the piston oilers being loose and leaking on some bikes, I honestly believe that Harley's suggested oil level is too much and the main cause of the sumping M8's. JMO

 
So your running basically the same amount in your M8 as you did in a Twin Cam now, correct ?
Yes, and I can't make it sump.
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Para Bellum

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2019, 02:34:17 AM »

Dude, I'm not comparing the M8 to lawnmower engine, just making a statement
Our conversation was about the M8 engine.  The exact words of your statement were:
Have you then lowered your oil level by 1qt, not 1/2 qt but 1 full qt ? Fill a lawnmower a qt or so too full and see what happens.
No useful info here.

If you take a Twin Cam dip stick and compare it to the M8 stick, they are the same in length but the twin cam would show over full and the M8 want.
No useful info there either.  Length of the dipstick tells you nothing about the oil capacity; for example, my SUV's dipstick is 8 times the length of the M8's, but the SUV doesn't hold 40 quarts (8 x 5).

Look it up on the HTT site.
Exactly what I asked for:
It would help if you put up a link to Durwood's report so all of us can reference the same info.
Here is the link: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=106016.200
Here is the punch line from Durwood (the oiler issue he refers to below is the piston oiler jet, which GMR found about 3 years ago):
« Reply #208 on: Today at 04:38:24 AM »
Quote
I have had them sump after addressing the oiler issue, which I do whenever the cylinders are off.

Oil pump doesn't matter, with or without updated cover with seal or S&S, they still sump.

But once the oil level dropped the sumping stopped. This is on 8 different bikes that I built and tuned.
So if the piston oiler jets aren't loose (yet?), maybe running /12 quart low will be an effective band-aid?  As said before, that's really cheesy for a $28,000 to $48,000 bike.  Thanks, H-D.
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Tn.Heritage

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2019, 06:51:28 AM »

Our conversation was about the M8 engine.  The exact words of your statement were:No useful info here.
No useful info there either.  Length of the dipstick tells you nothing about the oil capacity; for example, my SUV's dipstick is 8 times the length of the M8's, but the SUV doesn't hold 40 quarts (8 x 5).
Exactly what I asked for:Here is the link: http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=106016.200
Here is the punch line from Durwood (the oiler issue he refers to below is the piston oiler jet, which GMR found about 3 years ago):
« Reply #208 on: Today at 04:38:24 AM »So if the piston oiler jets aren't loose (yet?), maybe running /12 quart low will be an effective band-aid?  As said before, that's really cheesy for a $28,000 to $48,000 bike.  Thanks, H-D.
Look, I see I'm getting no where with you because all you want to do is try and disprove anything anyone say's. I was only stating that maybe, just maybe, not counting the oilers being loose, (which I also saw a long time ago) maybe HD made a mistake with the oil fill, that's what I was trying to share via what Durwood stated, that's all. Now explain how me stating that overfilling a briggs engine, HD engine, Boat engine etc. etc. wasn't useful. it was just a scenario of what could and will occur if something has been overfilled, that's all. That's what Darren was sorta of trying to say as well. Why would his engine not sump while running 3.5 qts. of oil but would sump running what HD recommends for the M8?

   Hopefully the Aftermarket will fix the main issues as they always do with all of HD's faults, then and only then will the mothership follow suit.
  I know you will break this down and try to make me look bad as you normally do or have in the past, I get it. In the end though, all we all want is to buy a bike we can ride and enjoy without worrying whether it will transfer, sump and other issue's that may occur.
  Peace out  8)
   
   
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2019 Limited Low 114, S&S 475 cam, PR's, LC's, lifters,S&S Sidewinder 2-n-1 with a Roland Sands AC. Tuned with a PV tuner at J&B Performance.

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2019, 10:14:33 PM »

Why would his engine not sump while running 3.5 qts. of oil but would sump running what HD recommends for the M8?

   Hopefully the Aftermarket will fix the main issues as they always do with all of HD's faults, then and only then will the mothership follow suit.
In the end though, all we all want is to buy a bike we can ride and enjoy without worrying whether it will transfer, sump and other issue's that may occur.
  Peace out  8)
After all of the info we've exchanged, I have some questions left about oil level: 
  • Why aren't all, or at least far more, of the M8 engines showing signs of overfilling (like oil leaks, excess oil in the breathers and air filters, foaming and/or burnt oil, and sumping)?
  • Would problems only show up after running the bike hard and overwhelming the return oil system?
  • What about the weakest link; i.e., the seal at the piston oiler jets?  Could the high pressure and flow of an overfilled oil system cause the seal there to fail, leading to a catastrophic leak and rapid failure of the engine?
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Tn.Heritage

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2019, 06:49:39 AM »

Wish I could answer those questions, honestly I do.  If I could I'd be a lot better off than I am now for sure  ;D
 
   My theory, I think some engines may have a better casting than others, some may also have better ring seal than others etc. etc. There really is some good reading over on HD Forums with Steve Cole and others about certain theories and possible fixes. Most however call them bandaids instead of fixes.

  My best friend just purchased a 2019 trike and with only around 800 miles on the clock and he can't keep tranny oil from transferring. Took it to Smokey Mtn. HD and they installed the new vent. Now I know what your thinking, what does this have to do with the sumping issue, right ?  :-\ I guess my point here is why some do it and some don't. There are a lot of bikes out there that have no issues at all on any of these subject's we have talked about.
 
  I do know though, all bikes made late May and on, will have the primary vent installed from the factory.
   
  Anyways, got to scoot but if anyone hear's of new theories or fixes, please post, I like to try and keep up with them. This way we can discuss and argue about how they work or not.  :D
 
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bobbym

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2019, 04:31:10 PM »

2018 CVO RG

6300 MILES
Stage 4 done at new.
Sumped engine oil temperature was 340 shut down no oil on dip stick ! Oil showing in exhaust! waiting for harley to send engineers to look in Boston ma.

Will advise when I get Info

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CQ Harley Rider

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2019, 06:59:17 AM »

My 2019 CVO SG sumped at 6000km's, it was 6 months old.

HDAU arranged for  replacement engine to be installed, the tech at the dealership told me even though mine wasd a 2019 model it was a 10/18 build so it probably missed the oil pump upgrade.
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bobbym

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2019, 08:24:44 AM »

Well I hope that the oil pump is definitely the problem because  I am still hearing people out there its happened multiple times!!

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Tn.Heritage

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Re: New 117 Sumping
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2019, 08:43:34 AM »

My 2019 CVO SG sumped at 6000km's, it was 6 months old.

HDAU arranged for  replacement engine to be installed, the tech at the dealership told me even though mine wasd a 2019 model it was a 10/18 build so it probably missed the oil pump upgrade.
   My bike, though not a CVO, had a build of 10/26/18 and mine had the oil pump seal installed from the factory.
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