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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: longlast on May 28, 2018, 07:14:12 AM
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Like my user name, at Longlast I'm starting to get ready for striping the motor down to repair/replace the bottom cylinder gasket leakage. Thanks to those that helped me along in the previous post when I had questions on this.
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Got the parts and tools I didn't have to do the job. Haven't got the rings as yet not sure of the ring size. I order them after I take some measurements.
I'll post as I go along.
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Are you planing on doing any other work while you have the motor open?
Make sure you check the crank run-out while you have it open.
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Are you planing on doing any other work while you have the motor open?
Make sure you check the crank run-out while you have it open.
Not sure how that's done on a Harley, plus don't have a micrometer gauge.
Motor was running good no issues then stalling out sometimes coming to a stop.
Will look into it. :2vrolijk_21:
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Tank and pipes off
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If it had good compression not using oil leave the rings alone. That ring set will cost you as much as new pistons and to be honest is not likely needed. Fixed hone may take a thou or more to get the cylinders true and now the piston fit is gone. Bal honing not something to do with the thin low tension rings. If needed due to oil consumption or compression loss then bore to the next OS. Now you have seasoned cylinders bored and honed in torque plates (hopefully, it is a must for good ring seal).
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If it had good compression not using oil leave the rings alone. That ring set will cost you as much as new pistons and to be honest is not likely needed. Fixed hone may take a thou or more to get the cylinders true and now the piston fit is gone. Bal honing not something to do with the thin low tension rings. If needed due to oil consumption or compression loss then bore to the next OS. Now you have seasoned cylinders bored and honed in torque plates (hopefully, it is a must for good ring seal).
Compression 120 rear 125 front. Oil consumption good no smoke on cold start up or hot.
I didn't think it would be acceptable to put the pots back on the old rings once removed as the rings would lose there seating then it would burn oil and have compression lose.
My thoughts were to recross hatch the cylinders and new rings,
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First and hope the last fatality :-[
Rear rocker carrier bolt, and yes I did turn it the right way, it snapped as it was winging out.
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Compression 120 rear 125 front. Oil consumption good no smoke on cold start up or hot.
I didn't think it would be acceptable to put the pots back on the old rings once removed as the rings would lose there seating then it would burn oil and have compression lose.
My thoughts were to recross hatch the cylinders and new rings,
120/125 sounds low. That needs to be 175-185 at least.
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The cvo 110 has 210 or thereabouts with an open throttle and compression releases off. Check it properly with a quality gauge and it will be higher. If not you have issues and it is time to go +.010 or +.060 (113")
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It is very acceptable to pull barrels and drop them right back on but you need good seal first. Reringing is a non starter with rhe low tension thin rings.
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Squirt a little oil in the plug hole and re-test the compression. That will tell you straight away if the ring seal is
bad. If it's still low, try another gage.
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Noted will do a recheck :2vrolijk_21:
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It should also be checked with a little heat in the motor
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How many miles are on it?
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How many miles are on it?
Only 22k. Hot happy having to do this breakdown do too bad shop work on a head gasket recall. On top now I've got a broken rocker carrier bolt in the head.
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Got the pots off, the cylinder walls are in good condition no scoring what so ever the cross hatching is still clearly visible around the hole cylinder.
For you far more experienced than I on Harley motors.
Would you renew the rings or just replace the faulty seal (reason it was pulled down) and put the pots back on the same rings..
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Got the pots off, the cylinder walls are in good condition no scoring what so ever the cross hatching is still clearly visible around the hole cylinder.
For you far more experienced than I on Harley motors.
Would you renew the rings or just replace the faulty seal (reason it was pulled down) and put the pots back on the same rings..
If the MIDDLE rings have a fine shiny line at the bottom of them just put the cylinder back on. If the ring is shiny across the whole face, replace the whole set. ;)
John
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What sensor would this be,.....it goes into the firing chamber.
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The automatic compression release that needs to be disconnected and a wide open throttle to get an accurate compression number
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The automatic compression release that needs to be disconnected and a wide open throttle to get an accurate compression number
Ok that I didn't do on the compression test most likely that's why the reading was low.
Cheers
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I doubt you need rings with that low mileage. Replace the lifters and other wear items and ride it.
You'll need to drill that broken bolt. I'd get a reverse twist drill bit and it should come right out easily.
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If the MIDDLE rings have a fine shiny line at the bottom of them just put the cylinder back on. If the ring is shiny across the whole face, replace the whole set. ;)
John
Good advice there, I look at the consistency of the stripe too, in other words same size around the circumference
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I'd too put that all back together as-is unless you see some unusual wear or problem as noted. Lifters, rocker lockers and inner cam bearing upgrade a good idea if not already done.
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Haven't looked at the rings as yet, but the cylinders are clean all round.
Been messing with the broken bolt. I'm managing to get it on the move. Not out yet.
Rocker lockers going in.
S&S lifters previously done.
Full compliment cam bearings previously done.
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For your info, the Harley Service manual gives 2 sets of figures for doing a compression test, with standard 110 engine,
1. With Comp releases disconnected 200-220 PSI.
2. With Comp releases connected and working 130-170 PSI.
Hope that helps.
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For your info, the Harley Service manual gives 2 sets of figures for doing a compression test, with standard 110 engine,
1. With Comp releases disconnected 200-220 PSI.
2. With Comp releases connected and working 130-170 PSI.
Hope that helps.
Thanks,.
I assume the comp release were working for the readings I got. At the time I thought mine didn't have the units.
Once it's back together I'll be doing the test with them connected and disconnected.
I'll be testing them to be sure that they're working before they go back.
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You may want to take a look at this, I used it to "break in" my engine a couple of years ago, and it seems to have worked a treat.
Have talked to many Harley independants over the last couple of years about this very subject and most agree with it, Too do a good job with "Piston Ring to Cylnderwall" sealing, dont use "synthetic" oils and ride it like you stole it!
I changed my oil after 50 miles, then again after another 200, and didnt start using "rock oil TRM" untill had 1,000 on the clock.
I have "no oil " usage at all, with exception of the very small amount from the breather system (I use a catch can to keep the cylinders and pistons crowns clean).
http://mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
Regards
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Use the recommendation of the person doing the hone for break in. Consider yourself one of the lucky ones the rings didn't microweld. That method is best suited to water cooled engines with a close tuneup.
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i replaced my rear oring recently. I left the piston in the cyl and just removed the wrist pin. Pretty easy no problem since
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:2vrolijk_21:
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You may want to take a look at this, I used it to "break in" my engine a couple of years ago, and it seems to have worked a treat.
Have talked to many Harley independants over the last couple of years about this very subject and most agree with it, Too do a good job with "Piston Ring to Cylnderwall" sealing, dont use "synthetic" oils and ride it like you stole it!
I changed my oil after 50 miles, then again after another 200, and didnt start using "rock oil TRM" untill had 1,000 on the clock.
I have "no oil " usage at all, with exception of the very small amount from the breather system (I use a catch can to keep the cylinders and pistons crowns clean).
http://mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
Regards
That was interesting.
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You will find Axtell, S&S and Hastings breakin procedures on the net. None are even close to this method. Axtell provides solid reasons why not to wale on the new motor.
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+1
I've read that article before. No way I'd follow that interweb link method.
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I tend to agree. Although it was an interesting read, I don't think "rather I'm sure "I won't be dumping the amount of oils into it that's suggested for breaking in. :drink: :drink: :drink: I don't even change myselfs motor juice that often :D
It's always been, for me anyway that a motor is run at 50mph with the odd short burst up to around 70mph then slow back to 50mph for next 500mil of breaking in time. This is the first HD motor but have done a few other motors with what I just mentioned break in and have never changed oil like it said too.
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Did a check on the rings and found the middle rings are almost polished the complete depth of the face of the ring the gap ends were completely polished.
I've decided and ordered a set of Total Seal rings should be here the middle of next week. By the way the 07 stock rings are 1.2mm comp and 2.5mm oil these are discontinued by HD you have to go to 113 upgrade piston and ring I was told so went with Total Seal.
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Someone gave you a bit of wrong information.
21951-11 std and 21953-11 .010 are the rings. EXPENSIVE!
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Someone gave you a bit of wrong information.
21951-11 std and 21953-11 are the rings. EXPENSIVE!
Now why does that not surprise me.
It was my local HD dealership informed me they're discontinued. I looked up the the part number the cost was high a lot higher than Total Seals cost including shipping from your side of the pond.
I'll hit the dealer up with that part number and see what they have to say.
Thanks for the input :2vrolijk_21:
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Rings arrived today from Phoenix, Arizona. Not bad going as it took only 9 days from date of ordering.
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The rings that came despite what the year and part numbers for my 07 ultra say the rings were the wrong ones :-[
Every where I've been looking I was coming up with the same size of ring 1.2mm top rings and 2.5mm oil. To big for the top and to small for the oil.
Well I had to buy myself a measuring tool and do it the old fashion way. I called Total Seal and gave them the piston grove measurements over the phone.
For the 07 I've got, the rings are 0.43" top rings and 3.mm oil
NO where even from the dealer do they come up with these rings.
The reorder came today the rings fit and assembly has begun.
Been keeping busy waiting for the right rings to come.
I put on a new fork slider (chrome was peeling).
Changed fork oil
Changed brake and clutch fluids
Chased down a short in the SPKR switch system and repaired
Replaced the rear brake pads
Got the cross hatching on the front pot done and cylinder on today will start the rear tomorrow.
Fingers crossed I have no more setbacks.
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You not considered going to 113 overbore new pistons/rings?
Alex at www.fastlaneheadwork.co.uk i use/ reasonable cost
i did a 117 HD bolt-on worked out fine
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You not considered going to 113 overbore new pistons/rings?
Alex at www.fastlaneheadwork.co.uk i use/ reasonable cost
i did a 117 HD bolt-on worked out fine
Something I'd look in to about 50k down the road.
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Job done bike to my surprise started up straight away.
Test ride today feels like a hole different ride from the other bits of work I did on top of the motor work.
Motor sounds good ran well and no oil leakage,..... bonus
Thanks for all the help and input from you all
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Well done, congratulations. Always a good feeling to do a quality job yourself.
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Job done bike to my surprise started up straight away.
Test ride today feels like a hole different ride from the other bits of work I did on top of the motor work.
Motor sounds good ran well and no oil leakage,..... bonus
Thanks for all the help and input from you all
So after all that time and a billion bits scattered around the garage you didn't cock up anything? Well done! :2vrolijk_21: :drink:
Always feels good the first time you hear one fire up after it's been apart.
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Well done, congratulations. Always a good feeling to do a quality job yourself.
Cheers 2002,
So after all that time and a billion bits scattered around the garage you didn't cock up anything? Well done! :2vrolijk_21: :drink:
Always feels good the first time you hear one fire up after it's been apart.
Gotta say I have to agree Don it firing up straight away was a great sound and a relief I fully expected to have pissed around to find out what I'd done wrong doing it for the first time and getting all the bits back together was a challenge.
Took the month from start to finish . Once the research was done and parts all gathered took 4 days to reassemble it.
To be honest I'm bloody glad it's over 😃
Should be free riding from now on. Motors been done with new Total Seal rings, rocker lockers in, S&S lifters in, full complement cam bearings in, new fork slider with Motul SAE 15w medium heavy fork oil in, new brake pads, oh yes and replaced front and rear wheel bearings.
Plus the inner primary case bearing clutch hub and a new Hayden M6 primary chain tensioner put in but that was back in April.
Again thanks guys :2vrolijk_21:
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So glad to read you've got it all sorted. That piston ring ordeal was enough to send a man to the pub. Now you can enjoy the riding season. So, pleased you got a garage :huepfenlol2: ?
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:D ;D cheers Don :drink: :drink:
The past month the weather's here's been in the top 20s low 30s and no sign of it letting up to soon.
The old girl and I are of to the coast (North Sea) tomorrow 1.5 hr. run
Fun in the sun on the beach :orange: :huepfenjump3:
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Crap, that's warm. I'd take it though. Went riding yesterday afternoon and it was 35-36. And no f'ing sea breeze :huepfenlol2: !
I'm just glad you're riding :2vrolijk_21: .