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[fastfreddy]

 OH shi tip he didn't just ask that ..... did he 

[iski]

Well, it's obviously an oil problem. 
 

[Para Bellum]

I have been reading the threads and posts concerning sumping issues with the M8 motor. I had business at my local HD dealer yesterday and I asked a trusted employee at the dealership how many M8 sumping issues that they have dealt with.

He said that they have had two total 2017 or 2018 M8 bikes in their shop for sumping issues and 1 was a stage 3 and the other was a stage 4 bike. I do not know the real extent of the sumping problem, but it sure isn't affecting all the M8 bikes assuming the info is correct.

I have 600 miles on my holdover 2017 SGS and the oil level is still where it should be and my friend's identical bike with 800 miles is still ok.

I really wonder how big the sumping problem is on the 2017 and 2018 M8 production bikes. It certainly has affected some of our forum members severely by reading their posts. I would think that the ESP warranty people would be watching this issue very closely because the problem is coming their way.

The problem with information like this is that it's just a small slice of what's happening.  If you combine this dealer's info with what we see here and on other sites, it gives us the big picture.

For discussion purposes:  What if it can happen to any M8, but the people who have Stage 3 or 4 kits more often run the bikes in a way that causes sumping?  That's actually worse news for all M8 owners---it means those who don't run it hard enough, early enough, might have the sumping and damage occur after the warranty expires.  If Harley stays true to the previous CEO's approach, they probably aren't going to step up voluntarily.  It will be on the individual's dime to fix it, unless enough of the M8s burn up to force a recall (aka "product improvement") like happened with the early 110.

As much as I hate to ask (given the passion people have for their lubricants), I am just curious as to what types/brands motor oil people are running that have experienced the sumping?

If truth be known, I bet a lot of them are running Syn3...b/c they're coming straight out of rebuild or replacement at the dealer.  But I don't think it's caused by the type of oil.

[grc]

As much as I hate to ask (given the passion people have for their lubricants), I am just curious as to what types/brands motor oil people are running that have experienced the sumping?

Please don't give H-D any more ideas on things they can use to deflect blame for THEIR problem.  They've already tried to tell people they are running the bikes "too hard" and it's caused by their riding style.

Jerry

[NH Bulldog]

Not trying to stir things up, but if folks are running Syn3 and this happening using HD oil then it IS an HD issue.  Their motor, their oil, their oil pump = their problem. 

There are many people on this site (and others) who also have other performance vehicles that DON'T run stock oil, stock filters, stock anything.  You make performance mods and you make adjustments to your lubricants, fuel, tuning, oil/transmission coolers, etc. to achieve the desire performance.  It comes with the territory.  I am not saying it is right or just.

I understand that given the issues, people want to keep it as HD as possible, so when (not if) the failures occur, it can be laid on HD and we can hold them responsible.  My point in asking about oil in the first place is similar to the water pump issue that some have experienced (HD coolant gums up the magnetic drive impeller, but better coolant alternatives have been identified).  If there is a better fluids option for those of us who have NOT had the issue, then maybe we should talk about it. 

So for anyone who has had the Stage 3 or 4 modification and NOT had a sumping issue (I know you are out there), do you run factory fluids or some alternative lubricants?   

[Para Bellum]

So for anyone who has had the Stage 3 or 4 modification and NOT had a sumping issue (I know you are out there), do you run factory fluids or some alternative lubricants?

All of the M8s that sumped have at least two things in common:  They all used gasoline and air.  Hey!  Maybe that's what caused it! 

Just kidding, but to say that "most of the 'sumpers' used Syn3, so that must be the problem," doesn't pass the sniff test.

Yes, it is MoCo's problem, but pointing at every component/fluid the M8s share doesn't lead to a solution.

BTW, I haven't had sumping and I don't use Syn3...but that's not the solution to sumping.

[Heatwave]

Not trying to stir things up, but if folks are running Syn3 and this happening using HD oil then it IS an HD issue.  Their motor, their oil, their oil pump = their problem. 

There are many people on this site (and others) who also have other performance vehicles that DON'T run stock oil, stock filters, stock anything.  You make performance mods and you make adjustments to your lubricants, fuel, tuning, oil/transmission coolers, etc. to achieve the desire performance.  It comes with the territory.  I am not saying it is right or just.

I understand that given the issues, people want to keep it as HD as possible, so when (not if) the failures occur, it can be laid on HD and we can hold them responsible.  My point in asking about oil in the first place is similar to the water pump issue that some have experienced (HD coolant gums up the magnetic drive impeller, but better coolant alternatives have been identified).  If there is a better fluids option for those of us who have NOT had the issue, then maybe we should talk about it. 

So for anyone who has had the Stage 3 or 4 modification and NOT had a sumping issue (I know you are out there), do you run factory fluids or some alternative lubricants?   

Just plain dumb. There’s millions of TC Harleys running Syn3 without sumping. Let me guess, you’re an Amway distributor??

[NH Bulldog]

I think the oil is a symptom, not the problem.  So until the problem is corrected, maybe we can manage one of the symptoms?  By that I mean; is there an oil more resistant to breakdown and foaming while still maintaining viscosity and protection under severe service conditions that these (even stock) motors produce?  There are enough gear-heads on here that someone has to have some experience with a high performance racing-type oil that might fit the bill. 

Changing the oil pump to a different model obviously didn't fix the issue.  That tells me that there is a design flaw in the oil system (oil passages, ports, filter, cooler, bypass, etc.) that restricts or limits oil flow coming out of the pump, and that no amount of pump changes are going to fix it, because the flow is physically limited by the design of the motor itself.     

[Heatwave]

I think the oil is a symptom, not the problem.  So until the problem is corrected, maybe we can manage one of the symptoms?  By that I mean; is there an oil more resistant to breakdown and foaming while still maintaining viscosity and protection under severe service conditions that these (even stock) motors produce?  There are enough gear-heads on here that someone has to have some experience with a high performance racing-type oil that might fit the bill. 

Changing the oil pump to a different model obviously didn't fix the issue.  That tells me that there is a design flaw in the oil system (oil passages, ports, filter, cooler, bypass, etc.) that restricts or limits oil flow coming out of the pump, and that no amount of pump changes are going to fix it, because the flow is physically limited by the design of the motor itself.     

I’m not aware of any date suggesting oil viscocity or foaming have any thing to do with sumping. A few have hypothesized but thinking changing oil brands or even oil type is a fools errand.

[Para Bellum]

I think the oil is a symptom, not the problem.  So until the problem is corrected, maybe we can manage one of the symptoms?  By that I mean; is there an oil more resistant to breakdown and foaming while still maintaining viscosity and protection under severe service conditions that these (even stock) motors produce?  There are enough gear-heads on here that someone has to have some experience with a high performance racing-type oil that might fit the bill. 

Changing the oil pump to a different model obviously didn't fix the issue.  That tells me that there is a design flaw in the oil system (oil passages, ports, filter, cooler, bypass, etc.) that restricts or limits oil flow coming out of the pump, and that no amount of pump changes are going to fix it, because the flow is physically limited by the design of the motor itself.     

Even an oil that doesn't foam at all, no matter how much it's whipped by the crank, will still cause problems if it's in the crankcase...the oil will still resist the crank rotation, and the rest of the engine will still be starved for oil.

As you said, a design flaw that prevents return of the oil to the system is not going to be fixed by using a different oil.

[NH Bulldog]

Just having a conversation....We didn't put a man on the moon by wishful thinking.  We talked about, we put our heads together, we considered some really crazy ideas that no one thought would work, but in the end we made it happen!

For the record, I have always used Syn3, even in the 100% air-cooled 2007 TC 96 and 2012 TC 110 on which I towed a trailer and put nearly 100,000 miles on between the two.  I have never had a motor issue, or sumping, or anything of that nature.

[iski]

I’m not aware of any date suggesting oil viscocity or foaming have any thing to do with sumping. A few have hypothesized but thinking changing oil brands or even oil type is a fools errand.

Suppose this means Harley will not attempt to market SFSyn3 (Sump Free Syn3) & Genuine HD No Sump Oil Filters that could be in development already.

[Rooster]

Sorry for all that are having this issue which of course shouldn't be happening. Every year I watch and wait and still can't buy a new HD and why I still have my 07 that I worked and paid my way out of those issues. I am watching some other brands just like some here.

[skiindean]

Is anyone familiar with Feuling part # 7097 race series oil pump system. Just ordered one today for the sumping issue. These guys knew the problem before I described it and said they have the fix. Not cheap at $1199 but a lot cheaper thank regular breakdowns and Harley not having an oil pump remedy. Back ordered for 2 weeks, I’ll let everyone know if it fixes our pump issue once I get the bike back in a few weeks. btw, I use RedLine throughout. Thoughts?

http://www.feulingparts.com/products...r%20Drive/7097

[happyman]

Actually, I've seen several reports of multiple failures with the same bike with new engines and the latest design oil pump.  If the dealers were just repairing the existing engine it would be easy (and often accurate) to blame poor workmanship.  But when Harley ships a brand new engine to the dealership and all they do is bolt it into the frame, and that one also fails, that tells me in no uncertain terms that H-D has no clue.  Btw, there have been more than a few reports of sumping with bone stock M8's, standard as well as CVO models, so this isn't just a Stage IV kit issue or just an oil pump issue.  They need to learn how to find the root cause of their many issues, instead of carrying on their tradition of throwing band-aids at things to try to slide by.

JMHO - Jerry

  I for one have had several failures . nothing works  but then why would it ..