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Author Topic: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping  (Read 7999 times)

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Heatwave

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2018, 01:31:09 PM »

You're more tolerant or optimistic than I Jerry.  It's difficult to accept ring seal issues that would cause the issues described.  Especially when so many things suggest against.  Ring seal issues wouldn't be such a sudden onset and irregular as the sumping issues seem to present.  Ring seal issues would (almost) certainly present with other problems as well.  Seal issues would have to be so significant that to...


Well... I'll only say I'm afraid Harley is looking for something far simpler (and cheaper) than what is the real problem in the hopes they can find a minimally additive factor to their problem and remove that in hopes that an otherwise compromise system will be given just enough of a band aid they can sneak a lot of bikes beyond warranty without buying complete engines (or motorcycles).

If you don’t believe the sumping is primarily driven by cylinder, ring, piston seal issues or the oil pump design, what is your theory on the cause of sumping in the M8?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 01:40:26 PM by Heatwave »
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Twolanerider

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2018, 01:52:05 PM »

If you don’t believe the sumping is primarily driven by cylinder, ring, piston seal issues or the oil pump design, what is your theory on the cause of sumping in the M8?

If one looks at engineering drawings of the cases you'll see differences in the scavenge systems.  My fear is they designed a system that was barely ok for only most riding.  If that's so differences in scavenging abilities of the pumps themselves will only marginally address it.  The issue just doesn't present as one primarily caused by ring sealing, cylinder pressures or other top end issues.  That seems no more likely than the "riding style" excuse you were asked to accept earlier.
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Heatwave

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2018, 02:10:45 PM »

If one looks at engineering drawings of the cases you'll see differences in the scavenge systems.  My fear is they designed a system that was barely ok for only most riding.  If that's so differences in scavenging abilities of the pumps themselves will only marginally address it.  The issue just doesn't present as one primarily caused by ring sealing, cylinder pressures or other top end issues.  That seems no more likely than the "riding style" excuse you were asked to accept earlier.

What explains so many M8 stock bikes, with asserive riders, NOT sumping? Why are many, if not most, of SE Stage IV builds NOT sumping? While its disturbing to see so many posts of guys sumping, if this was truly a design issue we would be seeing massive #s of engine failures. But that’s not the case. Certainly the # is higher than expected or than the TC but is it a failure on a wholesale scale? I don’t think so or the noise level would be overwhelming requiring a recall.

It has all the appearances of defective manufacturing or perhaps serious QC issues on the release of defective components into the supply chain from my perspective.
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J.D.

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2018, 02:19:26 PM »

Likely many more of these have sumped and the riders were not knowledgeable enough to identify it, and many more eventually will when they get some additional miles.  There's way too many reports of sumping at this point to say there isn't a design problem.  Many reports of several different engines sumping on the same bike.  The oil pump design changes are chasing the symptom and not addressing the root cause of the issue, which appears to still be somewhat unknown (or at least not yet revealed).
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Heatwave

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2018, 02:30:52 PM »

Likely many more of these have sumped and the riders were not knowledgeable enough to identify it, and many more eventually will when they get some additional miles.  There's way too many reports of sumping at this point to say there isn't a design problem.  Many reports of several different engines sumping on the same bike.  The oil pump design changes are chasing the symptom and not addressing the root cause of the issue, which appears to still be somewhat unknown (or at least not yet revealed).

Having lived it personally, I tend to agree but I've just wondered if I'm too close to it to rationally see that a far greater # of bikes have NOT sumped or failed. I agree though that many guys that haven't sumped or failed yet, just have not put the bike into the right conditions to induce sumping. Its definitely a high % but no where near 10% of bikes built IMO (no factual evidence for that %, just my gut). I still believe the MAJOR root cause of M8 sumping is cylinder manufacturing defects getting into the supply chain (although leaking oil jets and sub-optimal oil pumps didn't help matters). At least that's the only cause I've seen legitimate evidence for.

IMO the degree of the cylinder defect is determining whether sumping happens catastrophically, or just occasionally or whether it can be easily induced. Minor enough and the guy riding gingerly might never experience it. If the cylinders have a severe defect.... well then.... an experienced rider will induce it easily.

Based on my experience, IMO I would never allow new cylinders installed on an M8 engine unless they were verified to specifications.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 02:42:35 PM by Heatwave »
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happyman

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2018, 02:46:13 PM »

On both my new motors after first sump bike ran perfect until right at 1000 miles. Last Sat in So Cal was crazy hot (100 degrees) and I thought oh boy, it may sump now. Ran it hard and it ran great with no issues. Next day not hot, was running great for about 100 miles (not running it hard) and I stopped for a few minutes and when I got back on it sumped. Same as other times, felt like it was running in mud and started throwing off crazy heat right side. Went straight to the dealer and by the time I got there you could smell the metal burning.
3 motors in 2 months, just ordered the BMW bagger today...
what concerns me is  the fact that many dealers  claim no issues at all!! I find that  to be razzle dazzle. some even go into a raging fit, if you even ask if they have had problems, its almost funny to listen to the lies they spew. reason I say that is because when you know people who have been to some of these dealers for sumping issues they have done the repairs the so called sales person will stand there and knowingly  lie  to your face. you know who not to ever do business with them , not ever.    same goes for some people who do a lot of different builds  for people  and claim they have never seen sumping. that's a  man to run away from.   its fact these motors have issues and it does not need to be a stage so and so  to get the sump issue , stocker do it too so  the bss needs to stop and the  motor co. needs to step up to the plate and have fix and pay the price to give the customer what was payed for   by there own advertising, yes indeed its time .
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J.D.

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2018, 03:09:20 PM »

I'd bet it's more than 10%, far more, but let's hypothetically say it's 10%.  Is that not sufficient to say they have a design issue that should be recalled?

I've been through it on my 2002.  Eerily similar lack of accountability from the MoCo.  Original TC88 oil pump design sucks and breathers pass oil into the air cleaner on the vast majority of them.  Oh, that's normal, nothing wrong with oil running out of the air cleaner onto the side of the bike, and they issue a spec that losing 1 quart of oil every 1,000 miles on a brand new engine is normal.  Then the tensioners start failing as soon as 20,000 miles.  Issue a notice that if you don't have them inspected at 20K and your engine blows it's YOUR fault because you neglected the maintenance.  Then they eventually issue a hybrid camplate that improves but still does not solve the oil pump scavenging issue.  Then they issue an "improved" hybrid camplate with another oil pump design iteration that starts getting it under control (12 years after the TC engine was launched).  Not once did they compensate anyone for what is CLEARLY a design flaw (two actually).  I got mine sorted out finally but it was frustrating and certainly not cheap.

At this point HD has lost me as a customer, likely forever.
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Heatwave

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2018, 03:20:33 PM »

I'd bet it's more than 10%, far more, but let's hypothetically say it's 10%.  Is that not sufficient to say they have a design issue that should be recalled?

I've been through it on my 2002.  Eerily similar lack of accountability from the MoCo.  Original TC88 oil pump design sucks and breathers pass oil into the air cleaner on the vast majority of them.  Oh, that's normal, nothing wrong with oil running out of the air cleaner onto the side of the bike, and they issue a spec that losing 1 quart of oil every 1,000 miles on a brand new engine is normal.  Then the tensioners start failing as soon as 20,000 miles.  Issue a notice that if you don't have them inspected at 20K and your engine blows it's YOUR fault because you neglected the maintenance.  Then they eventually issue a hybrid camplate that improves but still does not solve the oil pump scavenging issue.  Then they issue an "improved" hybrid camplate with another oil pump design iteration that starts getting it under control (12 years after the TC engine was launched).  Not once did they compensate anyone for what is CLEARLY a design flaw (two actually).  I got mine sorted out finally but it was frustrating and certainly not cheap.

At this point HD has lost me as a customer, likely forever.

10% failure for that matter does NOT define a design issue. In fact even if the failure was 100%, it does not mean it was a design issue. If manufacturing is producing parts that do NOT meet design specifications and QC is not quarantining those parts away from manufacturing, then what you have is a manufacturing defect. Design could be perfect but manufacturing screwed the pooch. But in either case ... design or manufacturing defect.... if the failure rate is high enough than a recall is definitely in order. But no one outside of HD Management, Manufacturing and QC know what the failure rate is, therefore its all supposition outside the company.
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Twolanerider

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2018, 10:17:48 PM »

What explains so many M8 stock bikes, with asserive riders, NOT sumping? Why are many, if not most, of SE Stage IV builds NOT sumping? While its disturbing to see so many posts of guys sumping, if this was truly a design issue we would be seeing massive #s of engine failures. But that’s not the case. Certainly the # is higher than expected or than the TC but is it a failure on a wholesale scale? I don’t think so or the noise level would be overwhelming requiring a recall.

It has all the appearances of defective manufacturing or perhaps serious QC issues on the release of defective components into the supply chain from my perspective.

With our limited audience here the assumptions suggested we simply can't know.  We know there are some.  That's all we know.  Though relative to the fleet size and time in to the model's lives I'm of the impression we're seeing quantitatively similar chatter to the noise that came with the heads/head gaskets/cylinder liner problems eight or nine years ago.

We can't know what we don't know.  We do know there's an issue.  An issue that should be explainable in a system using a type of pump and scavenge system that is nothing new in the industry at large nor to HD specifically.  Despite this Harley is still taking a shotgun approach to problems they are variously describing and excusing/explaining.  That's really all we know for sure.  That, however, is bad enough to cause more indigestion.
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SDCVO

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2018, 12:42:34 AM »

I was a little nervous about sharing because i doubt they can do it for most people and I didn’t want to frustrate those already having a tough experience. But given what I’ve been through I think everyone should demand the same.

In my case when the actual day came to do the install last week, they called me and wanted to postpone the build for a week. I was like WTH, I’ve had the appt for a month. What could be the issue now?

As I’ve suspected all along the issue is not a design issue but a manufacturing issue. Apparently the cylinder to rings to pistons clearances have been an issue in manufacturing. Combined with an oil pump not designed for an engine with those clearance issues has resulted in sumping.

So HD has tried to fix a cylinder manufacturing issue with a redesigned oil pump. Maybe they thought the oil pump design was defective or maybe they’ve known all along they had a serious cylinder/piston manufacturing issue they needed to solve and the oil pump change was the least expensive solution ... except it wasn’t.

In my case Engineering pulled my cylinders, pistons and rings and had them “matched” and trued to specifications in the Engineering lab and then overnighted to my dealer. They may also have modified the taper. I have no real details other than these 117 cylinders/pistons rings are “custom one offs” from engineering.

In combination with the latest oil pump, has it resolved engine oil sumping in M8 engines? Hard to say. I need more time and miles after breakin to really challenge this Stage IV 117 engine as it was advertised to perform. But early signs are encouraging. Particularly what appears to be cooler operating temps. But I’ve had hopes dashed before so I don’t want to get too far ahead of myself.

Can they do “custom one offs” for everyone. Doubtful but then again they shouldn’t need to for the money people pay for these bikes. Lets hope this is a solution they can transfer to manufacturing and get the M8 back on track.
Interesting that they came up with the same thing on mine the 2nd time and sent the top end to a machine shop in No Cal telling me it was a "one off deal" they were doing for me to make sure it would fix the problem as well as putting in the brand new oil pump. When the machine shop sent back to the dealer they sent the tolerances they measured which were impressive but to no avail..
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Alan

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2018, 08:50:59 AM »

Interesting that they came up with the same thing on mine the 2nd time and sent the top end to a machine shop in No Cal telling me it was a "one off deal" they were doing for me to make sure it would fix the problem as well as putting in the brand new oil pump. When the machine shop sent back to the dealer they sent the tolerances they measured which were impressive but to no avail..

welcome to the  one of club.  Failures . its much deeper than cylinders and fit. 
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happyman

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2018, 09:43:03 AM »

Unfortunately I am in that conversation now.. Not going well. Rep told me it was my riding style today and I ride to aggressively for the stage 4 and should go back to stock and they would put a new stock motor in (mine toast) and refund me the cost of the stage 4. Sure you can imagine my response. Going to meet with his boss sometime in the next 2 weeks and will try 1 more time to resolve and if not just turning over to the attorney (who is of course telling me to turn over to him now and stop wasting my time) for the "long fight"..
The BMW looking better..
put it back to  what ever they want.  sell it, purchase  the  BMW, or whatever flavor serves your  choice.  these  bikes are to put it very mildly very disappointing.  the motor company  tosses the same parts on these m8 bikes and nothing changes.  you will be back all to often. it seems from reading  anymore, its Pete, and repeat the same ole bs that does not include a fix.  it just may get you a few hundred miles and your bike is in the shop again. they owe the people a bike and there is no other way to see justice. the bike of course will be what you have and it will be fully dependable for a change.  this  is a situation where the government should be stepping in and making sure the people are getting justice and  what they paid for. to be sure these bikes in certain situations,  will get you killed, or injured because of the failures. HD owes the owners of these bike a good bike  or all the money back.   How  HD get away with this this long is testomoney to the fact there is no consumer protection . they ae getting paid obviously by the corporations  to hose the consumer down  so it appears and is right in front of there face wihout any consequence
 
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Heatwave

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2018, 12:18:32 PM »

Sad to report. This 3rd engine upgraded to Stage IV last week, sumped pretty badly last night after a 75 mile run. Outside temps were 77 degrees. Looks like the cylinders/pistons/rings perfectly matched and specced by HD Engineering were not the solution, even with the latest oil pump ....*****180 casting. I've been a naysayer for awhile that the sumping issue is a design issue (vs a manufacturing issue), but I'm now convinced there is a serious design issue with the oiling system for the M8. I'm also convinced now that I can take any M8 and make it sump. Just plain sad. No idea where to go from here with this bike. The Dealer is coming to pick it up but won't be able to get the dealer rep onsite until early next week. Looks like another lost summer of riding this bike ahead of me. Time to put more miles on my other bike which is a joy to ride and far more dependable.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 01:39:53 PM by Heatwave »
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chinashop bull

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2018, 12:29:29 PM »

I've been a naysayer for awhile that the sumping issue is a design issue (vs a manufacturing issue), but I'm now convinced there is a serious design issue with the oiling system for the M8. I'm also convinced now that I can take any M8 and make it sump.

Man that sucks. 

Could you please detail how to make the bike sump.  Mine has slumped twice. Dealer has installed latest oil pump and has instructed me to stress test it as hard as I can to see if I can make it sump.  Any guidance would be very much appreciated
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Heatwave

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Re: 3rd Stage IV upgrade on my 2017 CVO Limited due to sumping
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2018, 01:05:59 PM »

Man that sucks. 

Could you please detail how to make the bike sump.  Mine has slumped twice. Dealer has installed latest oil pump and has instructed me to stress test it as hard as I can to see if I can make it sump.  Any guidance would be very much appreciated

Here's how I come to the conclusion that I can make any M8 sump. Its a set of riding situations and temps that has taken awhile to figure out. I never did it exactly on the stock 114 form and wished I had. I have a 25 mile loop I enjoy riding. Its a combination of nice twisties with steep inclines, sweeping turns around a reservoir, then 10 miles on an interstate and than more twisty back roads back to my house. Last night I road that loop 2 times ...easy.....and the bike felt terrific. No signs of power loss or overheating. I regularly checked the radiator fans to see if they were running and the engine was cool, no issues and I was smiling as the ride felt great. At the last minute I figured I would do a third loop.

5 miles into the 3rd loop, the engine felt just "a hair off" the performance of the 1st 50 miles but I figured it was my imagination and my sensitivity to the the previous sumped engines. So I kept riding, nothing radical, just enjoying the curves. On the Interstate, I was doing 80-85mph with the traffic flow before the exit to the final 15 miles of backroads. The throttle response slowly got worse and worse. At every stop sign the fans were blowing where they weren't on the first 50 miles. Within 5-10 miles of my house the throttle response went to nothing. I could roll the throttle and it would barely accelerate. Engine was screaming hot.

I pulled it into my garage on level ground and let it idle for 2 mins. I shut it down and pulled the dipstick. Very bad burnt oil smell which you could smell throughout the garage. Where it had been perfectly full when I left, it was now 5-6 rows of dots low on oil, which is more than a quart low in less than 250miles. Even crazier, I let it sit overnight to cool down. Pulled the dipstick this morning and the oil was in the same place I left it last night but you could still smell the burnt oil on the dipstick. I turned the engine on and let it idle for 2 mins per SB1450 on the kickstand. I turned the engine off. The oil FELL from 5-6 rows of dots low on the dipstick to BELOW the add mark. Serious problem if your oil can DROP to below "add" in just 2 mins of idling on the kickstand. Obviously the latest model oil pump was not returning the oil from the crankcase to the pan at the same rate it was being pumped to the top end.

My view is its really just a matter of time. A stock bike might take 4-5 of those loops, maybe more but eventually sumping would show its ugly head. That's just my opinion based on my experience with 3 sumping engines. Its all a matter of time, load & temps.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 01:36:27 PM by Heatwave »
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