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Author Topic: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117  (Read 12451 times)

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PAhunter

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Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« on: July 25, 2018, 06:49:23 PM »

Hey guys
The answers on here are impressive and make sense on many subjects, and could really use some clarity please. I'll budget for crank if needed .. I decided on the 117 HD kit. Id really would like some thoughts though on a few things, if you could please help guide them.

~ I was told that if I keep the 50mm throttle body w the 117 kit it would be smoother on low end and possible more torque, I'd really like some validity on this thought?
~ Is there a better cam that would be better suited for the HD 117 kit, that has been tried with a good torque curve? showing 100lbs at 2k rpm and rising w V&H true duels, and Rinehart mufflers.
~ I am also not appose to changing mufflers, where could I find more torque w different mufflers? If were only talking a couple #'s I'm not really going after a change if I lose sound.
~ I am using S&S lifters to replace the SEagle.. If I'm missing something besides crank tell me your recommendations? I plan on leaving head be, for its still riding season here.

Thank-you
Hunter
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Yellow09SERG

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2018, 09:48:16 PM »

There is like a 40 page thread on the 117 kit and you will find several different cams used through that thread. The SE 585 that several have used seems to be a very good performer down low. I used the 24D Kury and been very happy. Couple guys have went Tman 625 and been very happy also. All of the 117's I know of have all used the 58mm so not sure what information you will find on the 50, but would bet you will run out of air
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TIMINATOR

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2018, 09:52:56 PM »

#1  no and no. on a stock drop in 117 kit from the moco, you will lose TQ and HP by retaining the 50 mm T body, especially if you have the CVO or MVA heads.
#2  use 2 into 1 headers. Mufflers suck.
#3  see #2
#4  forget the crank we do tons of the 117s and 110s with 120 to over 135 HP. with no issues on stone stock cranks. Hard downshifting cause more crank problems than HP. Get on the S&S website and watch the crank video before listening to me or any one else. TC uses SB Chevy lifters, we use Hylift- Johnson slow bleed down type, google theirwebsite for part #. Any auto parts store can sell them to you  for half of what the indies charge for the same, marked up, reboxed car lifters.
 Do the heads with big valves and some porting. Keep in mind that there are several sources that will sell MVA heads for about $1000 or so.  Don't pay anything near that for headwork that won't produce HP and TQ as well as the MVA heads. We port heads all of the time, but prefer to sell the MVAs as they are a great bang for the buck. 
Boy am I gonna hear about this! But bang for the buck is how I have run my business for over 40 years with no advertising and we are booking labor slots 3 to 5 months out. 
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2018, 11:22:17 PM »

Pardon my ignorance, Maybe I missed something. But what are you ultimately looking to accomplish?
Where are you now and where are you wanting to be?

Retaining the 50mm TB is not going to lower the power output but it will certainly limit any anticipated
increases you're seeking.  It may be (barely) adequate for a low RPM cruiser.

Where do you want your power? Need more info.   

Cheers,
-MC

 


 



 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 12:27:20 AM by MCE Performance »
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PAhunter

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2018, 05:32:07 AM »

Pardon my ignorance, Maybe I missed something. But what are you ultimately looking to accomplish?
Where are you now and where are you wanting to be?

Retaining the 50mm TB is not going to lower the power output but it will certainly limit any anticipated
increases you're seeking.  It may be (barely) adequate for a low RPM cruiser.

Where do you want your power? Need more info.   

Cheers,

My bike is a 2015 CVO limited, sorry. The throttle body thing was told to me by a tech, that someone did at there shop and seemed to like it.. I do agree it does seem odd.. However, I'm the ignorant here cause I need clarification.

We are mostly two up, so 2 to 4.5k would be great for torque, with no hard dip. When I look at HD'S torque curve, it's got a dip and that bothers me..

Thank you

-MC
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2018, 09:02:58 AM »

If you're set on keeping the 50mm TB; I'd look at a better exhaust, (crusher mellows and good head pipes)
with a set of bolt-in TQ cams. (and of course, a good tune).

Taking it a step further:
A larger TB, (55mm would do), mild pocket port with a little bigger intake valve, compression bump and a little
more cam to go with it. That would get the TQ up some more and let it carry out further, (giving you some
more HP)

Doesn't sound like you're wanting anything too crazy, so it's very do-able without breaking the bank. 
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2018, 01:24:31 PM »

I will also like to add: What's the incentive to add 7 cubes if you're going to restrict it with that TB?
No amount of displacement increase will help if it can't breathe, It makes no sense whatsoever. You
need to re-think your whole strategy here. My 110s make 130/130 using ported 103 head castings.
You'll never get close to that w/o getting air into it. My guys run 58 or 60mm throttle bodies for these
motors.

This would be like leaving a 2 barrel carb on a 502 cubic inch big block. It's never going to make HP
with a restriction like that, and the TQ will nose dive before you ever get on the cam.

I would totally forgo the 117 upgrade and put a decent TB on it. You need at least 55mm.

One more thing and I'll shut up: A smaller TB size will not increase your TQ. It's the size of the runners
you need to be concerned with. (Fuel injection TB is not like sizing a carburettor) Who ever told you that
a 50mm TB is needed to retain TQ doesn't know what they're talking about. It's the runner size, not
the TB diameter that you need to worry about. If you're going to 117, put an HPI 58-60mm on it.


 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 01:46:13 PM by MCE Performance »
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PAhunter

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2018, 03:48:26 PM »

My question about throttle body was more of a concern and what was told to me by a tuner.. I was not suggesting this is the way to go, I was hoping for clarification and I do thank you and others for the clarification concerning TB.

I did find a 101 page 117 drop in kit that is very educational and I appreciate that lead as well.
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2018, 06:22:11 PM »

My question about throttle body was more of a concern and what was told to me by a tuner.. I was not suggesting this is the way to go, I was hoping for clarification and I do thank you and others for the clarification concerning TB.

I did find a 101 page 117 drop in kit that is very educational and I appreciate that lead as well.

Right on. You could run the 50 for the time being, just don't expect to 'set the world on fire'. Good luck
with whatever you decide. You can always change it later.   
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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2018, 08:27:35 AM »

I am using an HPI 55 mm throttle body on my 117 build.  I like the throttle response.  I did not use the HD Kit.  I did use the HD cylinders and injectors.  Everything else is aftermarket. 
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2018, 08:46:13 AM »

The SE 117 kit includes a HD 58mm throttle body. The works well for most applications. The stock throttle body will hold it back after about the 115hp level. Understand the restriction is not like hitting a brick wall or a governor. You will loose progressively more horsepower as the potential of the other components exceed and demand more air than the TB can supply. In other words as the other components are matched and have the potential to make 130 as opposed to 120 the loss will be more. It is real easy to break 130 with a 117 using the CVO heads and even pop over 140 if all the components match. Stock SE kit makes about 115 even with the 58 TB
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PAhunter

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2018, 09:03:08 AM »

The SE 117 kit includes a HD 58mm throttle body. The works well for most applications. The stock throttle body will hold it back after about the 115hp level. Understand the restriction is not like hitting a brick wall or a governor. You will loose progressively more horsepower as the potential of the other components exceed and demand more air than the TB can supply. In other words as the other components are matched and have the potential to make 130 as opposed to 120 the loss will be more. It is real easy to break 130 with a 117 using the CVO heads and even pop over 140 if all the components match. Stock SE kit makes about 115 even with the 58 TB

I read that there is a much larger/deeper air element, that is to help w HP ….. but I'd be damn if I can find it. Do you know a part #? or is legitimacy of importance for HP w the 117 kit?

Thanks .. Hunter
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 09:22:13 AM by PAhunter »
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TNCarters

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2018, 10:18:20 AM »

Cant speak to when this might be needed but here is a link to the filter. https://www.tilleyhdofsalisbury.com/read-more-about-our--specials

Same can be done with some of the extreme air cleaners or heavy breathers. https://www.harley-davidson.com/shop/motorcycle-performance-filters 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 10:27:15 AM by TNCarters »
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2018, 10:32:23 AM »

There is a concept that applies, law of constraints.
What is the element of the assembly that is or are the airflow constraint(s) that are getting in the way of reaching the goal?
The air filter, not likely at this horsepower level, or minor at most and especially if the next component in line, the throttle body, is in the way.
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BostonboyDH

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2018, 11:58:54 AM »

     
      WAIT UNTIL YOU CAN GET YOUR HEADWORK DONE!!!!! Talk with some of the head porters / motor builders on this or any other forum you visit about your plans for your build their headwork & cam choice & the goal your trying to achieve regarding Torque.   It sounds like you want maximum effort from your 117CI motor build with out using all the maximum effort parts.   Why would you be willing to budget for a crank, be willing to spend extra $$$ to swap for a better set of mufflers, spend extra $$$ for S&S lifters, pay for a zero loss air cleaner tear it all down put it all back together again reuse the 50mm TB have it tuned and then feel disappointed because you didn't achieve what you were after, then getting a 55-58 TB, having the headwork done more down time and $$$  installing the parts more $$$ for dyno time re-tuning.   Not knocking your trying to understand the capability of the components you want to use but rather trying to help you save some $$$,  down time and disappointment with the end results. The opinions from those that posted in this thread is sound advice!!!  Do it once use all the correct parts get a tune from a reputable dyno tuner not a dealer tune or canned re-flash map Pay once and ride with a smile.   I also wouldn't be to overly concerned about a zero loss air cleaner such as the Tman or the one from Tillies they are costly and any of the free flowing air cleaners matched for a 55-58mm TB will get you where you want to be regarding TQ the zero loss air cleaners will maximize your HP at WOT.
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2018, 02:10:55 PM »

#1  no and no. on a stock drop in 117 kit from the moco, you will lose TQ and HP by retaining the 50 mm T body, especially if you have the CVO or MVA heads.
#2  use 2 into 1 headers. Mufflers suck.
#3  see #2
#4  forget the crank we do tons of the 117s and 110s with 120 to over 135 HP. with no issues on stone stock cranks. Hard downshifting cause more crank problems than HP. Get on the S&S website and watch the crank video before listening to me or any one else. TC uses SB Chevy lifters, we use Hylift- Johnson slow bleed down type, google theirwebsite for part #. Any auto parts store can sell them to you  for half of what the indies charge for the same, marked up, reboxed car lifters.
 Do the heads with big valves and some porting. Keep in mind that there are several sources that will sell MVA heads for about $1000 or so.  Don't pay anything near that for headwork that won't produce HP and TQ as well as the MVA heads. We port heads all of the time, but prefer to sell the MVAs as they are a great bang for the buck. 
Boy am I gonna hear about this! But bang for the buck is how I have run my business for over 40 years with no advertising and we are booking labor slots 3 to 5 months out.
So are you saying don't even check the pinion runout? Just do the upgrades.
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2018, 09:15:45 PM »

So are you saying don't even check the pinion runout? Just do the upgrades.

That's a dumb idea. Check everything, (twice).
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1roadking

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2018, 09:24:38 PM »

I was told by R&R cycle and Suburban Speed not to worry about my stock crank. I was going to do what you are and pass on the heads, I ended up changing my mind and had it all done at once. Suburban speed offers a 117 drop in kit with 10.7 to 1 compression pistons and a tman 590 cam in place of the kit cam and pistons plus there head work with a bigger intake valve for not a lot more money then the HD 117 kit. I paired this set up with a Bassani Road Rage B4 and had the best tuner in New England tune it and I could not be happier! It pulls like a freight train from 2500 RPM to 6000 RPM increasing horsepower all the way with an almost flat TQ curve. Peak TQ is around 3500 RPM but 2500 RPM is only about 6LBS lower and peak HP is at 6000RPM. It’s a great TQ HP combo. With the 2 into 1 into 2 pipe it was pesky, the 2 into 1 perfected the power spread:)
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TIMINATOR

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2018, 09:40:10 PM »

My opinions are strictly that, my opinions. We apparently haven't been seeing anywhere near the crank issues that other shops have, that's why I didn't see the problem with the HP level you seek. Feel free to follow mine or any other recommendations that you are comfortable with. Some smart guy a long time ago said: A camel is a horse designed by a committee."  No offense meant to others with differing opinions. TIMINATOR
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2018, 09:45:25 PM »

Tim
What do you call a crank problem? Many have >.006 runout, albeit may not get worse. The cam plate bushing will wear, and there are some oil pumps that won't take the hit either. I am not a crank salesman but just stating what I have observed since HD went to the cold forged cranks with maximum allowable runout of .012". Eyeballs go to runout but the rods pinch too.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 03:22:29 PM by HD Street Performance »
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fastfreddy

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2018, 10:17:50 AM »

I was told by R&R cycle and Suburban Speed not to worry about my stock crank. I was going to do what you are and pass on the heads, I ended up changing my mind and had it all done at once. Suburban speed offers a 117 drop in kit with 10.7 to 1 compression pistons and a tman 590 cam in place of the kit cam and pistons plus there head work with a bigger intake valve for not a lot more money then the HD 117 kit. I paired this set up with a Bassani Road Rage B4 and had the best tuner in New England tune it and I could not be happier! It pulls like a freight train from 2500 RPM to 6000 RPM increasing horsepower all the way with an almost flat TQ curve. Peak TQ is around 3500 RPM but 2500 RPM is only about 6LBS lower and peak HP is at 6000RPM. It’s a great TQ HP combo. With the 2 into 1 into 2 pipe it was pesky, the 2 into 1 perfected the power spread:)
what are these numbers you speak about... is there a dyno sheet we can look at, thnx
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2018, 10:44:48 AM »

That's a dumb idea. Check everything, (twice).
I agree. I was replying to OP sounded like dealer said no worries just upgrade. :nixweiss: Ihve an 07 and had mine checked way back then when the pinion runouts were all over the board and Moco raised the from 3k which is in my shop manual to 12k after replacing many motors. I wish you could have it checked before you even purchase the bike. LOL right.
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2018, 02:20:57 PM »

That's one of the reasons I bought an older model with the Timken bearing crank. (I wanted a non FI model too). 

Bored to 95ci, KB Dome pistons, Ported 1.95 heads. I'm machining them for compression releases as I write this.
DME590G cams D&D FC and a 45 Mikuni.

(Finally got caught up with customer work, now it's my turn ;)
Break it in on the dyno once I get everything put on and maybe I'll even start riding a little.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 02:23:36 PM by MCE Performance »
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2018, 03:23:37 PM »

My guess, 112hp
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prodrag1320

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2018, 06:16:24 PM »

That's a dumb idea. Check everything, (twice).


i second that

PAhunter

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2018, 06:58:02 PM »

That's a dumb idea. Check everything, (twice).

They will check my crank, they checked one the other day .0002, i can only hope.. I've decided on the 117 HD kit. Of course one could always wish more for himself, there is always another day. From previous research on here many are happy w the kit and many are happy w advice from the Pro's on here. Which brings me to my next thought, I saw a few up'd the compression on their's and changed the cams different from the OE kit. The ease of being confussed is frustrating indeed.. I still would like to stay w V&H TrueDuels, Rinehart Mufflers (they could go).

~ What I want is 125lbs torque!

~ Can I get that w TrueDuels?
~ If I polish the ports of the heads, is that even worth it?
~ Different Cam??
~ Change Base gasket??

~ Keep as is, I should see 125lbs torque!

Thanks Hunter
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2018, 07:00:55 PM »

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HD Street Performance

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2018, 07:49:20 PM »

They will check my crank, they checked one the other day .0002, i can only hope.. I've decided on the 117 HD kit. Of course one could always wish more for himself, there is always another day. From previous research on here many are happy w the kit and many are happy w advice from the Pro's on here. Which brings me to my next thought, I saw a few up'd the compression on their's and changed the cams different from the OE kit. The ease of being confussed is frustrating indeed.. I still would like to stay w V&H TrueDuels, Rinehart Mufflers (they could go).

~ What I want is 125lbs torque! OK

~ Can I get that w TrueDuels? Maybe but your chances are reduced compared to a 2-1-2 or 2 into 1
~ If I polish the ports of the heads, is that even worth it?  NO, leave them alone or take them to a professional.
~ Different Cam??  I don't know
~ Change Base gasket??  I don't know

~ Keep as is, I should see 125lbs torque! I don't know what it is? The harley kits lack compression and the pistons are way down typically

Thanks Hunter
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2018, 09:12:10 PM »

125 TQ?- Easy. The question is; will it be a narrow little peak, or will it be wide and flat?

Polishing ports went out of style with hula-hoops, and will do more harm than good believe it
or not. it looks cool though. (I don't polish anything on the inside)

I don't think I've ever seen a stock crank with 2 ten-thousandths r/o. (2 thousandths maybe).
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PAhunter

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2018, 09:36:54 PM »

125 TQ?- Easy. The question is; will it be a narrow little peak, or will it be wide and flat?

Polishing ports went out of style with hula-hoops, and will do more harm than good believe it
or not. it looks cool though. (I don't polish anything on the inside)

I don't think I've ever seen a stock crank with 2 ten-thousandths r/o. (2 thousandths maybe).

Oop haha .002

Thanks for all the responses :)
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trippy

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2018, 08:34:21 AM »

Hi Guys

Does anyone know the HD part numbers for the 117cu Cylinders alone (not the whole kit)?

Ride safe.
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2018, 10:22:20 AM »

Hi Guys

Does anyone know the HD part numbers for the 117cu Cylinders alone (not the whole kit)?

Ride safe.

fwiw: I'd recommend looking at S&S' cylinders too.   
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Fatboy

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2018, 10:25:05 AM »

Hi Guys

Does anyone know the HD part numbers for the 117cu Cylinders alone (not the whole kit)?

Ride safe.

92500051 gets you just the 117 Cylinders & Pistons for $1072 online at Board Tracker Harley. Been looking for the "cylinders only" myself with no luck so far.

http://www.boardtrackerharleyonline.com/product/92500051_SE-PRO-4.125-BB-BOLT-ON-CYL-117CI-GRANIT---92500051

MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #33 on: July 29, 2018, 11:38:41 AM »

Can't you bore a set of 110 cylinders to 117?
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2018, 12:33:30 PM »

Sure but would you run them? Do the math, the spigots will end up at ~.028" each side
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 12:40:05 PM by HD Street Performance »
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2018, 02:01:26 PM »

Sure but would you run them? Do the math, the spigots will end up at ~.028" each side

It doesn't seem to deter people from doing 98s and 107s. What's the difference?
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TIMINATOR

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2018, 02:17:53 PM »

Regarding crank runout and reliability: Procharger (we're a dealer), Trask (at the other end of town and we see a lot of them), Magna Charger (a riding buddy has one), and Aerocharger (installed some of them) all sell bolt on big power kits over 160HP. We've seen a lot of all of them running for years with stock cranks (that's how all of them advertise their products for use and installation), also high performance N/A  builds all over town too. Seen head gasket, detonation, and driveline  issues. Not seeing crank issues here so far except for the clutch dumpers and downshifters, and several of those guys have stock bikes with just slip ons and an air cleaner.
If you have enough HP to have traction issues, you generally don't have enough shock load to hurt the crank
 unless yu are one of the folks that insists on downshifting and that's what I have been seeing causing most crank issues HERE.
These are MY experiences in my locale. Circumstances alter results, nothing in this life is absolute, except death. We check, but don't obsess over runout. Feel free to disagree, but don't judge me for my opinions based on what I have seen.  TIMINATOR
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2018, 05:45:24 PM »

Good to hear. I'm still thinking from 07,08 I guess. As I still ride my 07.
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2018, 07:01:35 PM »

It doesn't seem to deter people from doing 98s and 107s. What's the difference?

Those spigots are .058 per side.
Steel vs cast iron
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2018, 09:06:53 PM »

Those spigots are .058 per side.
Steel vs cast iron

Last time I measured one, which was quite a while ago, it was more like .038"
(I wouldn't be uncomfortable with them if they were closer to .060) That's why I
don't like them. And last time I checked, the 103 cylinders were cast. (as are the
95 cylinders)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 09:20:45 PM by MCE Performance »
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2018, 11:12:37 PM »

Buy the drop in 117 cyls, pistons, rings, pins and retainer clips. The cyls are tool steel and hrder than the hinges of Phoenix in the summer. They work fine. I'm making 135.84 HP on pump 91 for nearly a year now with no issues. Before that I ran the drop in 110 setup on my CVO Fatboyat 121 something. It has been 108 degrees to 118 degrees for the last several weeks here, just typical July temps so far. We have done a bunch of those thinwall kits with no problems here in the heat. We do sell and install Amsoil in all of our builds, it does let them run a bit cooler. When you zero deck the jugs you will gain an appreciation for how hard the liners are too.   TIMINATOR
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2018, 07:09:58 AM »

Buy the drop in 117 cyls, pistons, rings, pins and retainer clips. The cyls are tool steel and hrder than the hinges of Phoenix in the summer. They work fine. I'm making 135.84 HP on pump 91 for nearly a year now with no issues. Before that I ran the drop in 110 setup on my CVO Fatboyat 121 something. It has been 108 degrees to 118 degrees for the last several weeks here, just typical July temps so far. We have done a bunch of those thinwall kits with no problems here in the heat. We do sell and install Amsoil in all of our builds, it does let them run a bit cooler. When you zero deck the jugs you will gain an appreciation for how hard the liners are too.   TIMINATOR

Thanks.. What exhaust are you running w your drop in? Air cleaner as well?

Thanks Hunter
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2018, 08:53:21 AM »

Hi Guys

Does anyone know the HD part numbers for the 117cu Cylinders alone (not the whole kit)?

Ride safe.

Yes, I did my build just buying the black cylinders.  I had CP make custom pistons

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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2018, 09:06:09 AM »

Tool steel would be the way to go if one were dead set on doing this.
(I would re-consider it unless you absolutely just had to have those 7
extra cubes)


A 110 done up right should get you plenty of TQ (and HP). But it's
ultimately your choice.
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2018, 11:32:08 AM »

Buy the drop in 117 cyls, pistons, rings, pins and retainer clips. The cyls are tool steel and hrder than the hinges of Phoenix in the summer. They work fine. I'm making 135.84 HP on pump 91 for nearly a year now with no issues. Before that I ran the drop in 110 setup on my CVO Fatboyat 121 something. It has been 108 degrees to 118 degrees for the last several weeks here, just typical July temps so far. We have done a bunch of those thinwall kits with no problems here in the heat. We do sell and install Amsoil in all of our builds, it does let them run a bit cooler. When you zero deck the jugs you will gain an appreciation for how hard the liners are too.   TIMINATOR

Boy, that's no lie. Cutting those tool steel liners for zero deck lets you know how tough those sob's are.
I've been cutting the bottom mating surface to get around it. 
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2018, 11:57:32 AM »

MCE, your correct, doing the bottom is the easiest way, I have also done it in my CBN tooled Serdi head/deck mill on the top but you have to take extremely light cuts to keep from "smearing" the aluminum. The lathe with C-30 or better carbide cuts the bottom OK, ya take a few cuts and resharpen. I don't know if a normal human could wear those cylinders enough to ever need a freshen up. After a year or two you just don't see any wear, pretty much the crosshatch the way it was when new.
I have talked to friends at Total Seal (they are local) and they sell what they call "Fairy Dust" , its a diamond lapping compound that is applied to the cylinder walls during assembly to aid in breaking in the latest crop of harder than PHX. in the summer race/ blown/nitrous rings. Great idea, but I can't get past the idea of putting diamond lapping compound into the rest of the engine. OK for a race car that gets torn down often though, I guess.
Those cylinders have been completely trouble free in every install we have done, and we have been using them since they came out. We don't sell anything that we haven't personally tried in our own scoots.
Headers on my CVO Breakout are Patriot Performance stepped 2 into 1s with heavily modified baffles. We also use the Drago's stepped headers too, and prefer those as they are coated inside and out, but Frank doesn't make the Dragulas for a Breakout. The Patriots are a bit longer in the primary length too, and I like that, but it would look ridiculous with an actual long enough tuned primary tube. We have our local guy do the coatings, he is great! P.S. we get the pipes coated inside and out and also the inside of the heat shields too. Motor temps will run lower with everything coated, at least here in Phoenix,AZ.   TIMINATOR
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2018, 01:15:36 PM »

MCE, your correct, doing the bottom is the easiest way, I have also done it in my CBN tooled Serdi head/deck mill on the top but you have to take extremely light cuts to keep from "smearing" the aluminum. The lathe with C-30 or better carbide cuts the bottom OK, ya take a few cuts and resharpen. I don't know if a normal human could wear those cylinders enough to ever need a freshen up. After a year or two you just don't see any wear, pretty much the crosshatch the way it was when new.
I have talked to friends at Total Seal (they are local) and they sell what they call "Fairy Dust" , its a diamond lapping compound that is applied to the cylinder walls during assembly to aid in breaking in the latest crop of harder than PHX. in the summer race/ blown/nitrous rings. Great idea, but I can't get past the idea of putting diamond lapping compound into the rest of the engine. OK for a race car that gets torn down often though, I guess.
Those cylinders have been completely trouble free in every install we have done, and we have been using them since they came out. We don't sell anything that we haven't personally tried in our own scoots.
Headers on my CVO Breakout are Patriot Performance stepped 2 into 1s with heavily modified baffles. We also use the Drago's stepped headers too, and prefer those as they are coated inside and out, but Frank doesn't make the Dragulas for a Breakout. The Patriots are a bit longer in the primary length too, and I like that, but it would look ridiculous with an actual long enough tuned primary tube. We have our local guy do the coatings, he is great! P.S. we get the pipes coated inside and out and also the inside of the heat shields too. Motor temps will run lower with everything coated, at least here in Phoenix,AZ.   TIMINATOR

Thanks.. I did not realize you had a breakout.. I'm searching for the best exhaust w the drop-in .. I originally thought id leave what I have and still may but I'm hearing I may not get the torque w my V&H true duels.. I'm hearing 2-1-2 .. I really need the best performer for a drop in.

Thanks Hunter
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2018, 02:52:55 PM »

You need 2-1-2s. Period. Anything else is a waste of the cash you already spent.  TIMINATOR
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2018, 04:53:00 PM »

You need 2-1-2s. Period. Anything else is a waste of the cash you already spent.  TIMINATOR
y

Absolutely correct.

You're putting the cart before the horse by not doing the heads (port work and compression bump)
and leaving that 50mm TB on it.

I'll go out on a limb and say; you'll gain more by doing the pipe/heads and TB than you would by
adding 7 cubic inches.

But what do I know?
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2018, 07:28:23 PM »

x2!!!!   The pipes, compression and port work will ALLOW the extra 7 cubes to make more power. The lack of the above will prevent the 7 cubes from doing any better.  A bigger air pump cannot pass more air than the smallest restriction to the flow.  TIMINATOR
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2018, 07:36:19 PM »

y

Absolutely correct.

You're putting the cart before the horse by not doing the heads (port work and compression bump)
and leaving that 50mm TB on it.

I'll go out on a limb and say; you'll gain more by doing the pipe/heads and TB than you would by
adding 7 cubic inches.

But what do I know?

Thanks.. I'm definitely going w the 58 TB.. I'm now working on best head pipe 2-1-2 and mufflers. I know fatcat is awesome, just looking for balance noice out the back..

Thanks Hunters
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2018, 08:26:40 PM »

D&D 2-1-2 header pipe with Freedom Performance mufflers (quieter without sacrificing power).
The D&D header pipe is ceramic coated (There's no heat shields and other chit to mess with)

I'll Get you the part numbers if you need them.
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BostonboyDH

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2018, 10:09:34 PM »

    Look into a Rush Wrath exhaust it tunes easier and not as loud as D&D.  Speaking from experience and I own both I had a D&D Fatcat on my 09 SERG when it was a 110 CI. I had a purpose built 117 CI and needed a bigger pipe the builder recommended the Rush Wrath or Frank Drago's Dragular both similar design & quieter with a flatter TQ curve over the D&D Borzilla exhaust. The D&D tend to have a TQ dip that requires some extensive tuning to eliminate the TQ dip. I still have a D&D Fatcat on my 107 Dyna and it is louder than the 117 RG.
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2018, 10:59:57 PM »

what are these numbers you speak about... is there a dyno sheet we can look at, thnx

My tuner, Big Boyz in Maine uses a totally different type of dyno. It’s a break dyno instead of an inertia dyno like a dyno jet and he also does his dyno sheet as specific out puts at each 250rpm interval IE 2000 2250 2500 2750 up to 6200 RPM. His dyno reads lower numbers then the typical dyno jet dyno and would not look impressive to most people lol. The strongest 117 he’s tuned put out about 120 TQ and he’s tuned thousands of bikes. Mine put out about 115 square on his dyno which should be around 125 to 130 on most dyno jet dynos. What’s crazy is it made about 107 TQ at 2500 rpm on his dyno climbing  to 115 ish at around 3000 RPM and stayed there, the HP climed  up to 6000 RPM. Neither he nor I thought it would keep going up after the TQ curve flattened so low in the RPMs. He was very impressed with how broad the power curve  was. It’s stupid easy and fun to ride fast and well mannered enough to enjoy riding at legal speeds as well :)
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2018, 11:21:21 PM »

FWIW: The DynoJet 250 has an Eddy Current brake. You can't tune a FI bike without a constant load device (brake).
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2018, 07:19:14 AM »

He uses a mustang eddy current dyno and pulls 4th gear for the final numbers. My point with my response to the op is that having a properly matched build with compression, cams, head work and exhaust, will get him a bike that runs the way he wants it to. The difference between my 2 into 1 into 2 power duals with OS 450’s and my Bassani 2 into 1 Roadrage is night and day at under 3000RPM and having run 2 into 2 big shots on my old bike I know his exhaust is killing his low rpm TQ!
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2018, 12:15:47 AM »

Why would he run 4th gear? Not as much load as 5th 6th or 7th. Lower gear runs show lower HP/TQ typically because of the lesser actual load and higher inertia (internal) load (on inertia style dynos). I want to see the worst case load to find all of the jetting and timing/ detonation issues.  At least if he does all of his runs the same, he can at least compare these to his other runs. To not do things to the industry standard removes the possibility of comparisons to every one else' s runs. Or is that  the reason? TIMINATOR
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2018, 11:14:50 AM »

I always try to run them in the top gear, avoiding overdrive if possible. (But I'm not a tuning shop either)
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TorqueInc

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2018, 03:33:08 PM »

Does not use afr to tune the bike either
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2018, 05:35:46 PM »

Cutting the cylinder tops is easy in a mill with PCD inserts. Light cuts.
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2018, 06:02:27 PM »

I have a 5 gas analyzer and it displays  CO, CO2, O2, % vol;  HC,NOX, ppm and AFR.  You can display them all at once.
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2018, 12:58:43 PM »

You all have been a big help and I truly appreciate it thank you so much I'm still working on Final thought.
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2018, 04:05:20 PM »

You all have been a big help and I truly appreciate it thank you so much I'm still working on Final thought.


Selecting everything to match so it all works together is the key. There are plenty of builders out there that
can guide you through it with proven combinations. Everyone has their preferences on pipes, cams and whatever.
Find a good builder and follow their advice. Try not to fall into the 'dyno trap' where peak numbers can lead you
down a rat hole.

My advice is, be honest with yourself as to how you plan to ride it so you get the power where you need it.
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2018, 07:19:58 PM »

Thanks all

The decisions are complete. All parts ordered and coming in.. My hope is a blessing of Harmonious.

117 SE kit complete 58TB, 5.3 injectors, with the exception of...

~ S&S lifters

~ TTS150 cam
~ TTS Tuner

~ Red Line duel piston cam tensioner

~ Fullsac DX head pipe

~ Crusher Trident mufflers

I would concider purchasing heads that were worked in granite color(ANYONE?), I will not concider having mine done at this time, it riding season here in PA.
Bike will be built and tuned complete w a 1 year warrenty.

So I thank you and hope you like my final thoughts :)

Hunter

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HD Street Performance

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2018, 10:11:24 AM »

I would not touch the tenioners.
You need more compression to get that cam right, let the builder guide. If it were in my shop it would be domes and bore plus hone. The band aid method would be milling the heads a little and .030 head gasket.
Skip the injectors, yours are fine at 4.9.
Heads are leaving 7-10 horsepower on the table.
Buy  a clutch upgrade, the builder that has to warranty this can recommend.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 10:17:02 AM by HD Street Performance »
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2018, 12:45:03 PM »

I would not touch the tenioners.
You need more compression to get that cam right, let the builder guide. If it were in my shop it would be domes and bore plus hone. The band aid method would be milling the heads a little and .030 head gasket.
Skip the injectors, yours are fine at 4.9.
Heads are leaving 7-10 horsepower on the table.
Buy  a clutch upgrade, the builder that has to warranty this can recommend.

Thanks HD Street

Clutch upgrade? AIM okay? I'm not familiar w a clutch upgrade.

~ I was mistaken the kit does not come w 5.3 injectors so yeah OEM thanks.

~ I'm assuming your saying Dome Pistons .. which ones?

Thanks
Hunter
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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2018, 08:40:41 AM »

Thanks HD Street

Clutch upgrade? AIM okay? I'm not familiar w a clutch upgrade.

~ I was mistaken the kit does not come w 5.3 injectors so yeah OEM thanks.

~ I'm assuming your saying Dome Pistons .. which ones?

Thanks
Hunter

For 2013 and newer the AIM VP SDR is simple to install and works very well.  https://aim-tamachi.com/collections/vp-sdr
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2018, 09:50:08 AM »

Just don't get the Rivera Pro Clutch. Neutral is hard to come by. Anyone know a secret?
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2018, 11:03:12 AM »

I tried several different clutches in my 120+ HP Fatboy, always had neutral issues with all of them, then I decided to see how long the stock SE clutch would last in it. It was fine and had no neutral issues. Current bikes: wife's 2004 Screamin' Eagle Deuce at 121 HP and 125 TQ, stock SE clutch that came with the bike (they have a stronger spring) eight months on it so far. My Breakout 136 HP and 131 TQ, stock SE clutch that came with the bike (it too came with an SE spring), as of this date over 1 year on it. We drag race and street race(oops, I didn't say that!!!!) both bikes. A lot. I question why peeps are having clutch issues, or are they just changing them because it is recommended by someone. We have built many bikes over 100 HP with no clutch upgrades with no issues. I tell the customers, to run it and see if you have problems, you can always change it later. Just another (informed) opinion.  TIMINATOR
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MCE

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Re: Clutch
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2018, 12:32:01 PM »

Same here.

(The SE spring/stock clutch seems to hold up just fine (at least for 130 TQ))
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2018, 01:12:17 PM »

For 2013 and newer the AIM VP SDR is simple to install and works very well.  https://aim-tamachi.com/collections/vp-sdr

Thanks for the info

I have the AIM VP .. I put that in my 2017 M8 and shattered/stripped 3rd gear, I took it off and never re-installed for fear I was to hard on the speed shift. Later I found out that several others lost 3rd gear, so I feel better about re-install on this bike. I never blew a HD trans until 2017 M8.


Thanks Hunter
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2018, 01:16:54 PM »

Just don't get the Rivera Pro Clutch. Neutral is hard to come by. Anyone know a secret?

Thank you big help for sure w that opinion.. years ago I had the Rivera in my 2003, and that was a beast at rally's, worked great but wore out the hand.. over time I forget things, and I remember Neutral being difficult now thinking back. had to find neutral before rolling stop.

Hunter
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #72 on: August 06, 2018, 08:17:46 AM »

Thanks for the info

I have the AIM VP .. I put that in my 2017 M8 and shattered/stripped 3rd gear, I took it off and never re-installed for fear I was to hard on the speed shift. Later I found out that several others lost 3rd gear, so I feel better about re-install on this bike. I never blew a HD trans until 2017 M8.


Thanks Hunter

I am at 138.5 HP and 140 torque on my CVO King.  The AIM VP SDR is holding it just fine.  No neutral issues either.
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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2018, 10:20:04 AM »

The  throttle body needs to increase with motor size. It is kind of true you if you want to get off the line is will respond slightly faster but the rest of the rpm range should increase.  56or 58 mm will work for you and smooth out the intake. you may even notice a little better gas mileage because you properly feeding the motor you build.

as for exhaust you headers are fine although I changed from V&H true duals to S&S power tune duals and find the torque to be a little better. I will know more after my next dyno. the bike quieted slightly.

Cams not sure on that one T-man and Woods have great options so does Andrews and S&S. I would stay away from Fueling Reapers. they causes me a lot of headaches and the customer service was not very good when you call them and try to figure out the problems. I had sumping problems  which nobody could explain but I put screaming eagles cams and sumping went away.
Later
John A. Gonzales
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PAhunter

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #74 on: August 07, 2018, 04:29:48 PM »

The  throttle body needs to increase with motor size. It is kind of true you if you want to get off the line is will respond slightly faster but the rest of the rpm range should increase.  56or 58 mm will work for you and smooth out the intake. you may even notice a little better gas mileage because you properly feeding the motor you build.

as for exhaust you headers are fine although I changed from V&H true duals to S&S power tune duals and find the torque to be a little better. I will know more after my next dyno. the bike quieted slightly.

Cams not sure on that one T-man and Woods have great options so does Andrews and S&S. I would stay away from Fueling Reapers. they causes me a lot of headaches and the customer service was not very good when you call them and try to figure out the problems. I had sumping problems  which nobody could explain but I put screaming eagles cams and sumping went away.
Later
John A. Gonzales

Thanks for the definition
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Rooster

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2018, 11:43:23 AM »

I tried several different clutches in my 120+ HP Fatboy, always had neutral issues with all of them, then I decided to see how long the stock SE clutch would last in it. It was fine and had no neutral issues. Current bikes: wife's 2004 Screamin' Eagle Deuce at 121 HP and 125 TQ, stock SE clutch that came with the bike (they have a stronger spring) eight months on it so far. My Breakout 136 HP and 131 TQ, stock SE clutch that came with the bike (it too came with an SE spring), as of this date over 1 year on it. We drag race and street race(oops, I didn't say that!!!!) both bikes. A lot. I question why peeps are having clutch issues, or are they just changing them because it is recommended by someone. We have built many bikes over 100 HP with no clutch upgrades with no issues. I tell the customers, to run it and see if you have problems, you can always change it later. Just another (informed) opinion.  TIMINATOR
[/quote I already had the Rivera clutch and it was slipping during the tune. Installed the gold diaphram spring and no slip. Motor is 131" Still same issues with getting to Neutral while motor running can sometimes slip to N while coming to a stop light.
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MCE

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2018, 11:07:10 PM »

If you can get it into neutral before coming to a complete stop, That helps allot.
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85FXRS

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2018, 02:31:31 PM »

Hey guys
The answers on here are impressive and make sense on many subjects, and could really use some clarity please. I'll budget for crank if needed .. I decided on the 117 HD kit. Id really would like some thoughts though on a few things, if you could please help guide them.

~ I was told that if I keep the 50mm throttle body w the 117 kit it would be smoother on low end and possible more torque, I'd really like some validity on this thought?
~ Is there a better cam that would be better suited for the HD 117 kit, that has been tried with a good torque curve? showing 100lbs at 2k rpm and rising w V&H true duels, and Rinehart mufflers.
~ I am also not appose to changing mufflers, where could I find more torque w different mufflers? If were only talking a couple #'s I'm not really going after a change if I lose sound.
~ I am using S&S lifters to replace the SEagle.. If I'm missing something besides crank tell me your recommendations? I plan on leaving head be, for its still riding season here.

Thank-you
Hunter
Best to do what the motor wants. There are several builders on this forum who have their poop in a group. Pay attention, and only do the build once. It is a waste to  do otherwise. That being  downtime,  and the $$.
The frustration  of a redo simply is not worth it.

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fastfreddy

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Re: Help w/ throttle body and cams 110 to 117
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2018, 12:44:39 AM »

Thanks HD Street

Clutch upgrade? AIM okay? I'm not familiar w a clutch upgrade.

~ I was mistaken the kit does not come w 5.3 injectors so yeah OEM thanks.

~ I'm assuming your saying Dome Pistons .. which ones?

Thanks  when I did my 13 , a Tman street performer KIT, that came out at 124/124, I used a machine works bandit clutch , it worked well and no neutral issues and at the time it cost a lill over 500
Hunter
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 12:46:58 AM by fastfreddy »
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SERGU aka the RENTAL ... never home & always broke...Thnx FF
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