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Author Topic: 2019 cvo sumping  (Read 32260 times)

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CVOStreetglide

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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2019, 05:24:26 PM »

WELL STATED!!!

Harley needs to resolve this problem.

When you are selling bikes nearly the same price as fairly welk appointed pick up trucks, you need to up your game.
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Phreakyz

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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2019, 07:56:24 AM »

What you said is ridiculous. I am one of the guys that have sumped multiple bikes, multiple times...   I also happen to have the 124 C.I. 2016 Road Glide Special that does pull wheelies without any hesitation....   My 17,18 and now 19 CVO's haven't gone more then a few hundred miles without sumping....       
Well I disagree that it is ridiculous but I understand how you might feel that it is.  If you take a step back and try to look at it analytically from an outsiders perspective, how do you explain what you have experienced?   Do you propose that every M8 produced in 17, 18 and 19 has the flaw?  That does not explain the Thousands upon Thousands of M8 bikes ridden every day without an issue.    Are you saying that the 3 bikes you purchased all had the flaw but others do not?  That is a statistical nightmare (engines produced on a modern assembly line with a screw up? ...  installed in bike that happened to be allocated to your dealer? ... of all the potential buyers you are the one that bought it...   Repeat for the next 2 years?)   You are saying you have had 3 M8s that have all sumped before the 1,000 mile service?   That rules out oil viscosity.  Were your bikes all stock?  What kinds of Mods? 
There has to be a common denominator.   If not then how do you explain it?

As for the rest of my statements.   There are many Twin Cam guys that seem to chime in even though they have no real experience with the M8.  Preaching Doom and Gloom about Harley Davidson.   Saying that they will never buy another and this will be the demise of HD...   I have had 88's 103's 110's and now a 117 and I have loved them all and will likely buy another one day. 
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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2019, 10:43:32 AM »

Well I disagree that it is ridiculous but I understand how you might feel that it is.  If you take a step back and try to look at it analytically from an outsiders perspective, how do you explain what you have experienced?   Do you propose that every M8 produced in 17, 18 and 19 has the flaw?  That does not explain the Thousands upon Thousands of M8 bikes ridden every day without an issue.    Are you saying that the 3 bikes you purchased all had the flaw but others do not?  That is a statistical nightmare (engines produced on a modern assembly line with a screw up? ...  installed in bike that happened to be allocated to your dealer? ... of all the potential buyers you are the one that bought it...   Repeat for the next 2 years?)   You are saying you have had 3 M8s that have all sumped before the 1,000 mile service?   That rules out oil viscosity.  Were your bikes all stock?  What kinds of Mods? 
There has to be a common denominator.   If not then how do you explain it?

As for the rest of my statements.   There are many Twin Cam guys that seem to chime in even though they have no real experience with the M8.  Preaching Doom and Gloom about Harley Davidson.   Saying that they will never buy another and this will be the demise of HD...   I have had 88's 103's 110's and now a 117 and I have loved them all and will likely buy another one day. 

My experience is very similar to his. 3 M8 engines that sumped. I ride the same way I have for almost 50 yrs. My TCs never sumped and my higly upgraded CVO 110 NEVER sumped and I have 75,000 miles on it, with the same riding style.

My 2017 CVO Limited had a stage IV kit purchased from HD and installed by my dealer. It sumped and so did the next 2 engines they installed under warranty. I use only factory recommended Syn 3 oil. All service performed and documented by dealer. HD Tech Services personally supervised the installs with a Master Tech from Milwaukee.

So whats YOUR explanation? Instead of cheerleading and challenging those owners experiencing sumping, perhaps you might just be thankful you haven’t experienced it yourself ...... at least not yet.
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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2019, 10:46:20 AM »

"As for the rest of my statements.   There are many Twin Cam guys that seem to chime in even though they have no real experience with the M8.  Preaching Doom and Gloom about Harley Davidson.   Saying that they will never buy another and this will be the demise of HD..."

I don't think one has to own an M8 to offer comments regarding sumping and I don't see anything wrong with HD enthusiasts using M8 issues as a reason not buy one.  If all we wanted to hear is good news, see your dealer.  There is overwhelming evidence to support a design flaw in this engine: comments & opinions from respected engine builders, the number of HD M8 oil pump iterations, testimonials from sumping M8 owners, aftermarket companies offering M8 oiling fixes, etc. 

I didn't have to own a Ford Pinto to know a design flaw caused the fuel tank to explode when struck from the rear.  Nor did I have to own a set of Firestone 500s to know they were flawed tires.  Not every Pinto exploded and not every set of 500s failed.  But there was enough evidence to identify a problem with both.  The same goes for the M8, IMO.
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hawgzilla

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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2019, 11:07:56 AM »

Well said Mark.
I also don’t own a M8 (and wouldn’t) but I do work at a dealership and witness the number of engine issues with the M8s.  We have lost count of the engines that HD either replaced or paid to have rebuilt since these engines were introduced.  To deny there’s a problem just shows lack of real world exposure or refusal to accept the truth..
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J.D.

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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #95 on: January 21, 2019, 11:27:13 AM »

I was skeptical of the dozens of M8 sumping testimonials myself, but the multiple MoCo oil pump design changes leave little doubt in my mind now.
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newseultra07

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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2019, 12:44:44 PM »

SO mostly just the M8's that have a Stage 3 or 4 have sumping issues it seems. I have an 18 CVO Limited that is pretty much stock except for non cat head pipe & fullsac baffles in stock mufflers.. Im thinking of going with a different cam but with motor issues maybe just leave it alone. I feel for the owners with these problems thou as I'm sure it frustrating...
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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2019, 12:44:45 PM »

Since HD does not publicly release information concerning the sumping issue, we will never know the extent of the problem.  Dealer's and HD have a financial incentive not to publicize the issue as it would hurt sales.

It would also be a HD PR nightmare with all of the other issues going on with dropping sales.

I think most publicly traded corporation are more concerned with their stock price than anything else.

 :oops: :nixweiss:

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Phreakyz

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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2019, 12:53:21 PM »

My experience is very similar to his. 3 M8 engines that sumped. I ride the same way I have for almost 50 yrs. My TCs never sumped and my higly upgraded CVO 110 NEVER sumped and I have 75,000 miles on it, with the same riding style.

My 2017 CVO Limited had a stage IV kit purchased from HD and installed by my dealer. It sumped and so did the next 2 engines they installed under warranty. I use only factory recommended Syn 3 oil. All service performed and documented by dealer. HD Tech Services personally supervised the installs with a Master Tech from Milwaukee.

So whats YOUR explanation? Instead of cheerleading and challenging those owners experiencing sumping, perhaps you might just be thankful you haven’t experienced it yourself ...... at least not yet.
What's MY explanation?  Your situation is different.  No one has said that the first year M8s had no issue, especially with the Stage IVs.  In fact HD issued a bulletin recommending the upgraded seal for the Stage IVs.   Now if you had said that you bought a new one each model year and the were all stock and they all sumped then I would be skeptical.    BTW this is a public forum.   If someone doesn't want want anyone "Challenging" what they have to say then they shouldn't be posting it here.  If no one ever challenged anything that anyone posted there would be a lot of BS flying around.   
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charles05663

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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2019, 01:23:10 PM »

What's MY explanation?  Your situation is different.  No one has said that the first year M8s had no issue, especially with the Stage IVs.  In fact HD issued a bulletin recommending the upgraded seal for the Stage IVs.   Now if you had said that you bought a new one each model year and the were all stock and they all sumped then I would be skeptical.    BTW this is a public forum.   If someone doesn't want want anyone "Challenging" what they have to say then they shouldn't be posting it here.  If no one ever challenged anything that anyone posted there would be a lot of BS flying around.

If HD is selling "upgrades" that are sumping, then it is still HD's fault regardless of the engine build.  HD is the one who designed/manufactured/sanctioned those upgrades and their factory trained techs are the ones that installed them.  I think it is only common sense that individuals who install those upgrades are more than likely ride their bikes harder than non-upgraded bikes.

If HD stops selling or suspends selling of those "upgrade" kits, it is an acknowledgement that there is an issue and they, for liability issues, don't want that to happen.

HD, has in the past, done the same thing with the 110 in denying there were any problems.  Leaking cylinder base gasket, bad lifters, failed compensations, etc.  It is part of HD normal business model.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 01:48:09 PM by charles05663 »
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guppytrash

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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2019, 01:30:05 PM »

This SUMPING problem is NOT an oil pump problem......Harley knows what they have to do to fix this issue but elects NOT to admit they have a bad design in the case and breathing system. This new seal on the back of of the 19 oil pump only looks like it will hinder the breathing of this already problematic engine.

Phreakyz
First of all I am truly happy for you, and all owners who have had success with the M8.
But to say it is bullchit. 
The quote above is from a guy who knows more about engines than 99.9% of the people here. 
He also makes money by tuning and performance modding HD motors. 
Why in the world would he want to create BS about the very product that makes him money?
I do not doubt or disagree with you that there are probably plenty of M8's that are trouble free.
But you yourself speak of the known problem.

What's MY explanation?  Your situation is different.  No one has said that the first year M8s had no issue, especially with the Stage IVs.  In fact HD issued a bulletin recommending the upgraded seal for the Stage IVs.   Now if you had said that you bought a new one each model year and the were all stock and they all sumped then I would be skeptical.    BTW this is a public forum.   If someone doesn't want want anyone "Challenging" what they have to say then they shouldn't be posting it here.  If no one ever challenged anything that anyone posted there would be a lot of BS flying around.   

Again I do not doubt or disagree with you that there are M8's in existence, that are without problems.
I would not be so arrogant to claim you are full of BS!
I also would not be so arrogant to claim those who have had problems are full of BS!

« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 01:35:36 PM by guppytrash »
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Bob Coco

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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2019, 01:40:02 PM »

Well Phreakyz,   First off I don't hide behind a made up screen name.  Bob Coco is my name. Go ahead and google it.  And All three of my bikes sumped while stock. The 17 sumped while waiting for the Stage IV kit to arrive to my local dealer. It then had a total meltdown once built as a Stage IV.     

 The 18 sumped with under 200 miles on it and my H.D. rep advised me that I shouldn't go the Stage IV kit. After multiple sumps and a total engine seize (engine seized while being ridden by dealership service writer repairing bike)
at that point H.D. offered me a hand built Stage IV engine. That lasted a while. Broken in as per H.D. recommendations on conventional motor oil and switched to synthetic at 1k miles. That made it to around 2,400 miles until it sumped.

     H.D. then offered me a buyout which was very one sided and I eventually refused and they offered me another bike swap. I did lose the Stage IV kit but honestly I didn't care as the bike is speed governed at 111 m.p.h. anyway and the Stage IV makes it's power in the higher rpm's anyway.

So, after waiting for my bike to be built, I received it in Fort Lauderdale and trailered it back to Daytona where I had just bought a vacation home. I rode it a little that night with no problems. The next day while riding back from Orlando National Forest?  I think I blinked because I missed the forest. LOL  I started to feel the bike get sluggish. Now mind you, I had a passenger and she wouldn't approve of hot dogging or whatever you want to call it so we were running about 70or so. I didn't actually look at the speedometer while in 6th. gear. Again mind you, I'm not looking to sump another bike. at 259 miles while riding my almost stock CVO  (ClockWorks windshield) 2019 RoadGlide I started hearing the engine getting louder and slowed down and pulled into the closest gas station. I checked the oil and it was barely on the stick. Waited 30 minutes, checked again and same. I'm guessing down 2 quarts.   I started the bike up and let idle for maybe 3-5 minutes and rechecked the oil. 1/2 quart down. Do the math!! 


Shove that feather in your hat!!!   I'm sick of ignorant people saying I don't know how to ride. I got my motorcycle license 40 years ago.  I've ridden hundreds of thousands of miles. NonStops of 1,200 miles more the once and owned numerous bikes. Heck, My HOG membership is good until 2025 and that's just from buying new bikes. I presently own 4 Harleys and 5 motorcycles in total. In my Navy days my 850 Yamaha Special would go back and forth from Norfolk, Va. to Long Island N.Y. almost every weekend I didn't have duty with many trips into West Virginia and the Carolina's.
 Myrtle Beach 2018 trip I road A brand new left over 2016  CVO RoadGlide Ultra 5,000 plus miles in 10 days getting the bike serviced twice along the way without a single hiccup.

So read the last few posts one of which from an individual working at a dealer. And then make your comments.   

If you rode more then you posted you might just learn what sumping really is.  Over and Out!!!       
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 01:50:52 PM by Bob Coco »
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cmashark

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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2019, 08:28:31 PM »

Well Phreakyz,   First off I don't hide behind a made up screen name.  Bob Coco is my name. Go ahead and google it.  And All three of my bikes sumped while stock. The 17 sumped while waiting for the Stage IV kit to arrive to my local dealer. It then had a total meltdown once built as a Stage IV.     

 The 18 sumped with under 200 miles on it and my H.D. rep advised me that I shouldn't go the Stage IV kit. After multiple sumps and a total engine seize (engine seized while being ridden by dealership service writer repairing bike)
at that point H.D. offered me a hand built Stage IV engine. That lasted a while. Broken in as per H.D. recommendations on conventional motor oil and switched to synthetic at 1k miles. That made it to around 2,400 miles until it sumped.

     H.D. then offered me a buyout which was very one sided and I eventually refused and they offered me another bike swap. I did lose the Stage IV kit but honestly I didn't care as the bike is speed governed at 111 m.p.h. anyway and the Stage IV makes it's power in the higher rpm's anyway.

So, after waiting for my bike to be built, I received it in Fort Lauderdale and trailered it back to Daytona where I had just bought a vacation home. I rode it a little that night with no problems. The next day while riding back from Orlando National Forest?  I think I blinked because I missed the forest. LOL  I started to feel the bike get sluggish. Now mind you, I had a passenger and she wouldn't approve of hot dogging or whatever you want to call it so we were running about 70or so. I didn't actually look at the speedometer while in 6th. gear. Again mind you, I'm not looking to sump another bike. at 259 miles while riding my almost stock CVO  (ClockWorks windshield) 2019 RoadGlide I started hearing the engine getting louder and slowed down and pulled into the closest gas station. I checked the oil and it was barely on the stick. Waited 30 minutes, checked again and same. I'm guessing down 2 quarts.   I started the bike up and let idle for maybe 3-5 minutes and rechecked the oil. 1/2 quart down. Do the math!! 


Shove that feather in your hat!!!   I'm sick of ignorant people saying I don't know how to ride. I got my motorcycle license 40 years ago.  I've ridden hundreds of thousands of miles. NonStops of 1,200 miles more the once and owned numerous bikes. Heck, My HOG membership is good until 2025 and that's just from buying new bikes. I presently own 4 Harleys and 5 motorcycles in total. In my Navy days my 850 Yamaha Special would go back and forth from Norfolk, Va. to Long Island N.Y. almost every weekend I didn't have duty with many trips into West Virginia and the Carolina's.
 Myrtle Beach 2018 trip I road A brand new left over 2016  CVO RoadGlide Ultra 5,000 plus miles in 10 days getting the bike serviced twice along the way without a single hiccup.

So read the last few posts one of which from an individual working at a dealer. And then make your comments.   

If you rode more then you posted you might just learn what sumping really is.  Over and Out!!!     

I agree.

My first M8, I’m now on #5, sumped after the stage 3 was installed.  My dealer bought it back.  They changed the oil pump and sold it to some other guy.  None of my other M8’s have sumped, but only one of those did I go inside of.  On the 2018 Road Glide, I did a cam, pipe, air cleaner, and tune.  Installed by me and tuned by my dealer.  My current M8, I believe it’s transfering transmission fluid.  Tomorrow my new clutch rod arrives and that will taken care of.

Honestly, I don’t have to justify squat to anyone, and I won’t.  I’m just reporting what I find.
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Chris

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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2019, 09:08:36 PM »

I talked to Bob at Myrtle Beach while he was doing a stereo upgrade on the 16. We talk about the sumping issue that H-D has at the time my 18 hadn't sumped. But guess what it did 9600 miles on it  all stock . I too have a 110 TC and it stock also down to the lifters . I have 6 yr warranty on the 18 so if it does it again they can keep fixing it until they come up with the real fix and it may be a new engine design.
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Re: 2019 cvo sumping
« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2019, 09:36:14 PM »

 I don't have a dog in this race, I own one of the last TCs made,  but I will use the information/stories in threads like this to make good choices when time comes for me to buy. sorry to those that got fauked on the M8.... and best wishes to those that didn't      :nixweiss:
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