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[Midnight Rider]

Has anyone ever seen this?  http://www.technoresearch.com/

Their Direct Link works just like a SERT, but the tuner does not have to purchase a new interface every time...at least not the entire box, just a new "key" for each bike they tune, which is a cheaper alternative to either the PCIII or a new SERT. 

Some shops are using this tuning tool now, with excellent results, as it reprograms your existing ECM, just like the SERT.

Here's a link to a shop that is using this:  http://www.johnsonenginetechnology.com/   ...many more are listed on the technoresearch site by state.  There's even one place in Alabama!!

[leoniru]

TC;
I suspect the Direct Link is an expensive system intended for dealers/tuners, not individual owners. However, what about their RapidBikeIII add-on ECM?

leoniru

[Midnight Rider]

TC;
I suspect the Direct Link is an expensive system intended for dealers/tuners, not individual owners. However, what about their RapidBikeIII add-on ECM?

leoniru

I think I'll give them a call tomorrow and find out exactly what it's all about.  Builder not far from here has the Direct Link....there's a good chance this company writes and/or manufactures the SERT.

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

DirectLink is a dealer oriented product (or group of friends, clubs etc) and can handle Buell, Magneti Marelli (also Ducatie and some others) and HD -Delphi in the Pro version.
Dealer buys the software. Customer needs to buy the hardwarekey to get access to the ecm.
The hardwarekey is less expensive than the racetuner. With both products you have to visit a dyno to get best results.
DirectLink has a built in view screen for engine parameters = no switching between two programs = easier and quicker
Very little chance of communication problems between software and the ecm. RT is known to cause communication problems.

(there are more differences, but I don't want to make this reply a advertisement)

[Midnight Rider]

DirectLink is a dealer oriented product (or group of friends, clubs etc) and can handle Buell, Magneti Marelli (also Ducatie and some others) and HD -Delphi in the Pro version.
Dealer buys the software. Customer needs to buy the hardwarekey to get access to the ecm.
The hardwarekey is less expensive than the racetuner. With both products you have to visit a dyno to get best results.
DirectLink has a built in view screen for engine parameters = no switching between two programs = easier and quicker
Very little chance of communication problems between software and the ecm. RT is known to cause communication problems.

(there are more differences, but I don't want to make this reply a advertisement)

V...please expand on your knowledge of this product.  I am very interested in knowing more about this system, as it seems a great solution to a permanent tune for the actual ECM without having to go the route of the SERT.  I have been told to get the most effective tune, it is best to weld bungs in the headers so you do not get any backflow interfereing with the readings from the A/F sniffers, thus a more precise tune, then plugging the bungs when the tune is completed.  Or, do you use the normal sniffer stuck up the exhaust pipe?  Most SERT's have to be tuned at HD dealers, and most HD dealers do not have reliable tuners, it seems.  Also, if you can, explain the differences or advantages of this system compared to the Power Commander.  Thanks for your contributions!!

Rednectum...I know you are familiar with this system as well, so anything you can add would be appreciated as well.

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

My knowledge: we are european distributor, partner and testcenter for directlink.
We don't use tubing stuck up the exhaust pipe. Nice for a quick view, but does not work for real tuning. Welding bungs or some other kind of connection in the headers a couple of inches from the exhaustports is the best.

The biggest differences compaired to powercommander
- With DirectLink you reprogram the stock ECU instead of changing signals with an add-on device (powercommander).
- With DirectLink you can still use the stock 02 sensors on the 07 models for closed loop. (BIG ADVANTAGE!)

With DirectLink you can change:
AFR and Ignition timing for front and rear cilinder individual
AFR (load based), a change in afr when the load on the engine changes
Cranking Fuel
Idle RPM
Intake Air Control
Accel en Decel fuel
Closed Loop AFR (you can make the engine run richer and still use the 02 sensors)
Warmup fuel
Knock sensor on/off
Rev Limiter
Enable/Disable Automatic decompression valves
Enable/Disable the use of the exhaust valve and/or inlet valve on HDI models

For a tuner there should be no difference tuning with DirectLink, Racetuner or PowerCommander IF they are willing to spend some time to learn the system.

[Midnight Rider]

So, very much like the SERT...perhaps better because of the communication interface?  And the key is less expensive than buying a SERT...just buy a new key for each bike you own.  Keys are about $250-$300, if I'm not mistaken.  Again, one is dependent on a good tuner, and if you don't have the bungs in the headers, there would be the expense of installing those, but it sounds like the potential is there for a better tune.  Also, the advantage over the PCIII is that if the PC fails, the ECM cannot properly control the engine, and like the SERT, this system does not present that potential issue.

I know someone who is going to have this done, so will be very interested in the results.

Thanks for your explanation!!

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

'and if you don't have the bungs in the headers, there would be the expense of installing those'
Yes, but you need that with all products. PC, RT and DL

'I know someone who is going to have this done, so will be very interested in the results.'
Do they have experience with DirectLink?

[mr_magoo]

Keep us posted, sounds like a good system.

[Midnight Rider]

'and if you don't have the bungs in the headers, there would be the expense of installing those'
Yes, but you need that with all products. PC, RT and DL

'I know someone who is going to have this done, so will be very interested in the results.'
Do they have experience with DirectLink?

I think most tuners do NOT install the bungs in the headers for tuning...they use the long copper "sniffer" and run it through the muffler and into the header pipe as far as they can get it.  That has been my observation, at least.  On systems with true duals, they tune each cylinder individually, but still use the copper tube method and do not install bungs (on pre '07 models).

Is Direct Link able to tune '08 models at this time?  Are they developing the interface to do so?

The company doing the tune for the individual on this site does have extensive experience with Direct Link, is installing the bungs, and performing the tune by taking the appropriate measures to ensure an accurate tune.  I anxiously await the results...

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

I know most tuners use copper tubes. We did it in the past also. But it's far from perfect.
There are other options without having to take the exhaust off and weld the bungs.

The '08 models have just been released. Not many out yet.
The work is started to get the software compatible. But I don't expect that we will have a solution before September/October.
It need's to be tested first.

[Midnight Rider]

I know most tuners use copper tubes. We did it in the past also. But it's far from perfect.
There are other options without having to take the exhaust off and weld the bungs.

The '08 models have just been released. Not many out yet.
The work is started to get the software compatible. But I don't expect that we will have a solution before September/October.
It need's to be tested first.

If you don't mind, please explain alternative methods.  I understand that unless you can get a sniffer within a few inches of the exhaust port, there are problems with false readings from the sniffer because of air being sucked back into the pipe through the reversion process, giving a false A/F reading.

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

Find threaded inserts (M6-M8-M10), drill a hole in the exhaust, put in the insert.
Use whatever connector you like between the insert and the afr sensor.

[Midnight Rider]

Find threaded inserts (M6-M8-M10), drill a hole in the exhaust, put in the insert.
Use whatever connector you like between the insert and the afr sensor.

You are speaking of a self tapping insert?  Or drill the hole, tap the pipe, then screw the insert into the pipe?  I am not familiar with this product.  Can you do this without removing the pipes?

I do not mean to be a pest on this subject, just trying to learn.   

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

I don't know the english name for them. These are inserts with thread on the inside.
You put them into the exhaust and than with a special tool you squeeze (?) them. This way they will stay in place. You can close them after use by using a normal bolt with cupper washer.
You only have to take of the heatshields. Everything is covered when mounting the heatshields again after tuning.


The upper right one.

[leoniru]

TC;
Is bung insertion a concern for you because both your bikes (listed in your signature data) are pre '07 -- meaning they do not have the narrow band O2 sensor ports(bungs)?
Wouldn't the stock narrow band O2 sensor ports on the '07 SERKs suffice, or are they located too far downstream from the exhaust port for unadulterated exhaust gas sampling?

leoniru

[Midnight Rider]

I don't know the english name for them. These are inserts with thread on the inside.
You put them into the exhaust and than with a special tool you squeeze (?) them. This way they will stay in place. You can close them after use by using a normal bolt with cupper washer.
You only have to take of the heatshields. Everything is covered when mounting the heatshields again after tuning.


The upper right one.

Cool...I'll have to check into those...good alternative, as I do not want to remove the exhaust from the Vrod again.  On my Ultra, the exhaust will be off at the point where I need to tune again, so i would just weld the bung, though I do like the idea of this smaller alternative.

[Midnight Rider]

TC;
Is bung insertion a concern for you because both your bikes (listed in your signature data) are pre '07 -- meaning they do not have the narrow band O2 sensor ports(bungs)?
Wouldn't the stock narrow band O2 sensor ports on the '07 SERKs suffice, or are they located too far downstream from the exhaust port for unadulterated exhaust gas sampling?

leoniru

leoniru...yes, that is the concern.  Neither bike has a useful bung.  The ultra has RH TD's on it, but only one bung, and the location is useless. If/when I do the motor work on the 103, I'll have the pipes off, so will install something then.  The V has no bung at all, and in fact, we had to drill a 5/8" hole in the baffle to get the copper tube sniffer in there.  The V is much more consistant front to rear cylinder, but I would still prefer an individual tune on each cylinder, and if the cost factor on this is system is roughly the same, and I can have the ECM permanently programmed, it seems a better alternative.  Nobody around here can tune a SERT worth a damn, and this "key" is about the same cost as a PCIII.

I am almost certain that the stock bungs on the 07 would be useful for tuning in this application.

[leoniru]

I --- like you --- am attracted to the fact that this system works by reprogramming the existing stock Delphi ECM.

Do I sense a 'group buy' in the near future?


leoniru

[Midnight Rider]

I --- like you --- am attracted to the fact that this system works by reprogramming the existing stock Delphi ECM.

Do I sense a 'group buy' in the near future?


leoniru

To my knowledge, there is only one tuner in Alabama, located in the southern part of the state.  I am interested in his shop for other purposes as well, so getting a tune on the V may be a good "test run".

What is your location, Leon?

[leoniru]

Northeast Pennsylvania.

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

Leoniru:
Even on 07 (closed loop) bikes we use this method.
Much easier AND we can test the closed loop version.

On Fatboy 07 btw it is almost impossible to switch the rear sensor to a wideband one due to the frame.

[Midnight Rider]

Northeast Pennsylvania.

There are several dealers and indy's in your state who use Direct Link to tune...

[grc]

Terry,

The inserts shown in the post from Vosselman are called Riv-Nuts, and are installed similar to a pop rivet.  Used for lots of years in the auto business to add threads in a blind hole for things like mirrors on trucks.  There are a couple things about using them for an O2 sensor however; the excess material will be inside the pipe, creating nonstandard exhaust waves and restriction that could affect tuning and performance, and they are designed to fit a flat surface so making a good seal to the curved pipe could be a problem.  In looking for a sample to illustrate what I'm talking about, I stumbled across the following page on the web.  It shows exactly what I'm talking about, albeit on a Yamaha pipe.   http://www.fjr1300.info/howto/rivnut.html

Jerry

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

GRC, we at first had the same feeling/thought.

Concerning sealing to a round pipe: when squeezing the rivet, the exhaust pipe will get flat around and under the rivet. We haven't seen any sealing problems yet. BTW DON'T use aluminium rivets! The pictures in the website show a toy-tool and I think alu rivets. We use M8 steel rivets and need a big and strong tool....

Protruding into the pipe.
Before using these rivets, on our own testbike we have used 2 bungs (M18x1.5) per header for testing purposes. 1 used for a wideband sensor for a selfadjusting system, 1 used for the AFR sensor for the dyno. All 4 wideband protruded into the pipe. We could only measure 2 HP loss!
So only 2 small rivets, instead of 4 big widebandsensors, won't have a lot of influence.


We still think this rivet system has more advantages than disadvantages.
But maybe someone comes up with an even better solution.... we are willing to learn....

[Midnight Rider]

Terry,

The inserts shown in the post from Vosselman are called Riv-Nuts, and are installed similar to a pop rivet.  Used for lots of years in the auto business to add threads in a blind hole for things like mirrors on trucks.  There are a couple things about using them for an O2 sensor however; the excess material will be inside the pipe, creating nonstandard exhaust waves and restriction that could affect tuning and performance, and they are designed to fit a flat surface so making a good seal to the curved pipe could be a problem.  In looking for a sample to illustrate what I'm talking about, I stumbled across the following page on the web.  It shows exactly what I'm talking about, albeit on a Yamaha pipe.   http://www.fjr1300.info/howto/rivnut.html

Jerry

Learn something every day...thanks, Jerry.  Was wondering about the sealing, but it V is not experiencing problems, that is a good sign.

This Direct Link stuff is very interesting though, and appears to be a viable alternative to SERT and PCIII's.  No Tmax for moi....

[grc]

Learn something every day...thanks, Jerry.  Was wondering about the sealing, but it V is not experiencing problems, that is a good sign.

This Direct Link stuff is very interesting though, and appears to be a viable alternative to SERT and PCIII's.  No Tmax for moi....

Terry,

I ran across the Direct Link web site last year and thought the same thing - looks like a good alternative.  I didn't pursue it any further because I was afraid I would have the same problem I had with the T-Max; lack of local tuning support.  Now that I have a PCIII that's working fine, I don't see a need to change.  Maybe if I buy another bike - hmmm, did they say it works on BMW's?

Jerry

[Midnight Rider]

Terry,

I ran across the Direct Link web site last year and thought the same thing - looks like a good alternative.  I didn't pursue it any further because I was afraid I would have the same problem I had with the T-Max; lack of local tuning support.  Now that I have a PCIII that's working fine, I don't see a need to change.  Maybe if I buy another bike - hmmm, did they say it works on BMW's?

Jerry

As a matter of fact, I think they do support Beemers 

Here are some interesting things:  Directly programs the ECM; Key is permanently linked to the bike, but at about 2/3's the cost of SERT; adjusts all parameters SERT is capable of, perhaps more.  I wonder who builds the SERT and writes the software for HD?   

[d o g o l s]

I don't know the english name for them. These are inserts with thread on the inside.
You put them into the exhaust and than with a special tool you squeeze (?) them. This way they will stay in place. You can close them after use by using a normal bolt with cupper washer.
You only have to take of the heatshields. Everything is covered when mounting the heatshields again after tuning.


The upper right one.

Riv-Nut

[grc]

As a matter of fact, I think they do support Beemers 

Here are some interesting things:  Directly programs the ECM; Key is permanently linked to the bike, but at about 2/3's the cost of SERT; adjusts all parameters SERT is capable of, perhaps more.  I wonder who builds the SERT and writes the software for HD?   

I had the exact same thought when I first saw it.  You can bet that H-D didn't design and build the SERT themselves, it was farmed out to a supplier as a "black box".  What would you like to bet that these folks, or someone working for them, had something to do with that?

Jerry

[Midnight Rider]

I had the exact same thought when I first saw it.  You can bet that H-D didn't design and build the SERT themselves, it was farmed out to a supplier as a "black box".  What would you like to bet that these folks, or someone working for them, had something to do with that?

Jerry

I have done some talking and some research on this very subject, and I'd just about bet my next paycheck that the guy who writes the software for this, writes it for HD too.  Only this is probably better...

[Unbalanced]

Actually it is a really good software Bragging Rights uses it to tune bikes.   It is half the price of the race tuner and the dashboard is much much more friendly and the person only has to buy a key to have his bike tuned and it works great.   I have only played with it a tiny bit and it is very user friendly for the tuner.

[Shovelhead Bob]

I have done some talking and some research on this very subject, and I'd just about bet my next paycheck that the guy who writes the software for this, writes it for HD too.  Only this is probably better...

Incorrect... PM me and you can send your paycheck to me... Momma wants me to re-do the Kitchen this winter.....

The SERT software is designed by a company called "The Turbo Shop", out of California..... It's plain as day on the software End Users Agreement screen... Look, you will see....

Technoresearch is out of Michigan.....

[grc]

Incorrect... PM me and you can send your paycheck to me... Momma wants me to re-do the Kitchen this winter.....

The SERT software is designed by a company called "The Turbo Shop", out of California..... It's plain as day on the software End Users Agreement screen... Look, you will see....

Technoresearch is out of Michigan.....

You've got to be kidding me - finally found someone who reads those software EULA's.   

Jerry

[Midnight Rider]

Incorrect... PM me and you can send your paycheck to me... Momma wants me to re-do the Kitchen this winter.....

The SERT software is designed by a company called "The Turbo Shop", out of California..... It's plain as day on the software End Users Agreement screen... Look, you will see....

Technoresearch is out of Michigan.....

Note that I said "just about bet"      I didn't fall off a turnip truck yesterday, so tell your wife she'll have to come up with other funding for the kitchen.  Besides, my paycheck wouldn't buy you a decent sink...

[Talon]

TCnBham, I had the self tapping bungs added to my old Honda V65, they worked great. That was back around 1986. Didn't take the pipes off, as long as you can get a drill in there to make the hole. They put my bike up on the lift and drilled from the bottom, towards the frame side, couldn't see them when the bike is on the ground, unless you lay on the ground. Not sure what type of sensor they were using, but mine were hald the size of the o2 sensors on the bikes now.  

[rednectum]

TCnBham, I had the self tapping bungs added to my old Honda V65, they worked great. That was back around 1986. Didn't take the pipes off, as long as you can get a drill in there to make the hole. They put my bike up on the lift and drilled from the bottom, towards the frame side, couldn't see them when the bike is on the ground, unless you lay on the ground. Not sure what type of sensor they were using, but mine were hald the size of the o2 sensors on the bikes now. 

the rivnuts we installed back then was to connect the hose(s) from the ega=exhaust gas analyzer. the japs were using ega 2 decades ago to tune carbed bikes.