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[WFP]

OK, trying to do my own 5K service and actrually change the Tranny and Primary Fluid.

Tranny and engine done...Primary is a problem.  First screw, the one on to stripped.  These are T-27 Torx Head.  I drilled it out some and was able to jam in a T-30 and wrestle it out.  Two others came out ok but were tight.  The remaining two....well, remain.  I have broken TWO T-27 Driver bits.  Applied WD-40, still no luck.  One slipped so I am getting close to stripping it...but it is still ok at the moment.

Any suggestions?

And when I install the new ones, I plan on applying Locktite Blue and not over torquing them if this is the best plan.

Also, Do you think they actually removed it at the 1K service if I am having such difficulty?

/Bill

[porthole]

Get your self an impact driver before you do anymore damage and I wouldn't use loctite, just torque it with a wrench.

[porthole]

In case you don't know what an impact driver is.

Looks like the tool below. Put the socket or bit on the fastener, give the tool a slight twist in the direction you want to go and strike it with a hammer.

The hammer blows helps to shock the screw loose while driving the anvil in the direction you want to go

[WFP]

Thanks!

I know about them from work, but don't have one in my tool box ...yet!

In case you don't know what an impact driver is.

Looks like the tool below. Put the socket or bit on the fastener, give the tool a slight twist in the direction you want to go and strike it with a hammer.

The hammer blows helps to shock the screw loose while driving the anvil in the direction you want to go

[AXIL]

  WFP ,  I have to deal with the same problem every day and hers what i do-  never use loctite on small button head fasteners if torqued correctly thy will never come loose, in fact on clutch cover screws I use antisize because of that problem . the 27t socket is the most used torx and you should get a snap on brand socket, if you don't use it for a living it will last a life time.     axil

[Twolanerider]

Five screws?  So the derby cover rather than the service cover?  In either case no reason any of those should ever have been that tight.  They're just 1/4" bolts after all.

The WD-40 won't help from the outside.  Can't penetrate to the threads.  If the socket head of the bolt is rounded out beyond use only a couple of things come to mind.  There are some easy out tools that will sometimes grab on rounded out screws.  It's a crap shoot but worth a shot.  Craftsman has some made to grab an internal socket head or Phillips screw.

Other idea that comes to mind is just that; an idea.  I don't know if the screws come through far enough to protrude on the inside.  If they do, and if they do enough, might pull off the primary cover and grab the other end with a pair of vice graps to break them loose.

[WFP]

My mistake...Clutch Inspection cover!

Five screws?  So the derby cover rather than the service cover?  In either case no reason any of those should ever have been that tight.  They're just 1/4" bolts after all.

The WD-40 won't help from the outside.  Can't penetrate to the threads.  If the socket head of the bolt is rounded out beyond use only a couple of things come to mind.  There are some easy out tools that will sometimes grab on rounded out screws.  It's a crap shoot but worth a shot.  Craftsman has some made to grab an internal socket head or Phillips screw.

Other idea that comes to mind is just that; an idea.  I don't know if the screws come through far enough to protrude on the inside.  If they do, and if they do enough, might pull off the primary cover and grab the other end with a pair of vice graps to break them loose.

[RedDevil]

What primary inspection cover are you talking about?  There isn't an inspection cover on the primary cover of my 07 Jester or 08 SG.  They removed the inspection cover because with the auto tensioner now installed, there's supposedly no need to inspect/tighten the primary chain.  If it is necessary, the whole primary cover must be removed and a new gasket installed.  I hope I'm not missing something here.  

  

[WFP]

Clutch Inspection...removal necessary to re-fill, correct?  Right from the service manual...

What primary inspection cover are you talking about?  There isn't an inspection cover on the primary cover of my 07 Jester or 08 SG.  They removed the inspection cover because with the auto tensioner now installed, there's supposedly no need to inspect/tighten the primary chain.  If it is necessary, the whole primary cover must be removed and a new gasket installed.  I hope I'm not missing something here.  

  

[Twolanerider]

Clutch Inspection...removal necessary to re-fill, correct?  Right from the service manual...

Yeah, my bad.  At the back end of an all-nighter.  Have to cut the old man some slack.

Wasn't thinking about the 07 and newer bikes.  Of course you've only got the one lid.  With the hydraulic clutch on the older models never even have to dick with the derby cover.

[RedDevil]

Clutch Inspection...removal necessary to re-fill, correct?  Right from the service manual...

I saw that you stated it was the Derby cover in an earlier post...that's correct....you need to open that to add the fluid.    You had me scratching my head when you were talking primary inspection cover....

    

[WFP]

Yeah, I ran down to the garage then back up here correcting my post.

/Bill

I saw that you stated it was the Derby cover in an earlier post...that's correct....you need to open that to add the fluid.    You had me scratching my head when you were talking primary inspection cover....

    

[porthole]

Get your self an impact driver before you do anymore damage and I wouldn't use loctite, just torque it with a torque wrench.

[porthole]

Even with the auto tensioner - having the inspection cover is an easy way to pour the oil in without spilling it all over the primary

[WFP]

Torque Wrench

Got that and use it.  

I do not like how tight these are...they should not be impossible to remove...but I will try the impact driver...and new screws everytime.

[RedDevil]

Even with the auto tensioner - having the inspection cover is an easy way to pour the oil in without spilling it all over the primary

You're right.  I wish they hadn't removed the inspection cover....

  

[Twolanerider]

Even with the auto tensioner - having the inspection cover is an easy way to pour the oil in without spilling it all over the primary

With the hydraulic clutch it's the only hole I ever open up.

[grc]

Got that and use it.  

I do not like how tight these are...they should not be impossible to remove...but I will try the impact driver...and new screws everytime.

No need for new screws every time Bill.  Don't use loctite, torque the screws to spec (I believe it is still 96 in-lb), and they will break loose for the next change without any drama.  I have to believe that the person who did your 1k service either used a heavy duty thread adhesive, or more likely just tightened until they squealed rather than use a torque wrench. 

Jerry

[BIGDOG]

If these have been Loc Tited take a heat gun and heat them up. Loc Tite will soften and release at 300 degres. You may need to run the engine so you aren't fighting the counter sink effect.

[Travelinshoes]

I dislike the Torx screws.  Whenever I take them out for any reason I replace them with hexheads.  Probably to don't look as good, but I think more user friendly.

T

[Twolanerider]

You're right.  I wish they hadn't removed the inspection cover....

  

Was actually surprised they did that.  It's very unMoco-like to remove an accessory item they can sell for $$.

[WFP]

Thanks All...stopping at Sears tonight for the impact Driver.

Nothing was on the threads of these screws although there was some white stuff on the oil and tranny drain screws (teflon?) I put new o-rings on those but no teflon when re-installed.

Will need at least two new ones so i will get 5 anyway.

i will not use loctite...

/Bill

[MUFFMAN]

Same thing happened to mine when I went to chrome screws. Chrome actually heats up & bonds itself to the other metal when it heats up. I ended up drilling & using "Easy outs" to grip what was left & get out. Now I always use thread ease(anti-seaze) on all fasteners of this type include plugs before fastening. It Doesn't allow the one metal to bond to the other while still keeping it tight. THE MUFFMAN

[Texas 103]

Five screws?  So the derby cover rather than the service cover?  In either case no reason any of those should ever have been that tight.  They're just 1/4" bolts after all.

The WD-40 won't help from the outside.  Can't penetrate to the threads.  If the socket head of the bolt is rounded out beyond use only a couple of things come to mind.  There are some easy out tools that will sometimes grab on rounded out screws.  It's a crap shoot but worth a shot.  Craftsman has some made to grab an internal socket head or Phillips screw.

Other idea that comes to mind is just that; an idea.  I don't know if the screws come through far enough to protrude on the inside.  If they do, and if they do enough, might pull off the primary cover and grab the other end with a pair of vice graps to break them loose.

And if everything else fails.. EZ-OUT to the rescue 

[Spike]

Same thing happened to me earlier this year when I was changing fluids. After the the torqx head stripped and I couldn't get it out with an easy out type tool, I took my dremel tool with a cutting wheel after the bolt. First I knocked the cutting wheel down to a smaller diameter so I wouldn't do any damage to the derby cover, then I just cut a flathead screwdriver notch in the head of the bolt. Still took some muscle but it came right out.

[AXIL]

   chrome screw +chrome primary cover + moisture +condensation =corrosion/the other loctite.  use antiseze.                                                                     axil

[SERK3]

WFP, SAMETHING HAPPENED TO ME, ROUNDED THEM OFF, BROKE TWO EASY OUTS AND DRILL BITS, FINALLY THE SHADE TREE IN ME CAME OUT, TOOK A SMALL FLT HEAD SCREW DRIVER AND HAMMER AND STARTED TAPPING UNTIL THEY BROKE LOOSE, IT TOOK ME LESS TIME TO GET THE LAST THREE OUT THAN IT DID THE FIRST TWO. I REMOVED ONE AT A TIME AND REPLACED THEM WITH THE BLACK ALLEN HEAD BOLTS THAT CAME WITH THE CHROME TOPPERS.

SERK3

[HogBreath]

If a good Torx bit breaks off, What is the chance for an easy out to get the fastener out? That's usually when I have a broken drill bit, & an easy out broken off in there. 

[hdbrad03]

MOCO Engineering I feel caused the issue. We use to screw the Torx screw directly into the Aluminum Outer Primary. Now I think harley is using steel inserts driven into the Primay. Maybe the bolts are reacting with inserts??? 

 
Brad

[AXIL]

hdbrad03, moco engineering ? there are no steel inserts. please explain your post as i don't get it. i say it is still techs causing the promblem as my earler post say.   axil

[WFP]

4 of the 5 are now out...and new ones installed to torque so that I could ride...the fifth is behind the passenger floorboard so that has to be removed before I can change the primary fluid.  that is tomorrow's job.

I did get an impact driver that worked to loosen one of them.

/Bill

[WFP]

OK, I ended up replacing all the Primary screws with new Chrome Ones since the dealer did not have the five stock ones I needed...oh well, its only money...now I need some clear nail polish to protect them.

HOWEVER, while draining the Primary, this is what I found...is it just new bike chit or do I have a real problem?  I was thinking of doing an early drain at 7500 to see if there is more.  Now I really wonder if Zion actually drained the Primary Fluid!

/Bill

[Fired00d]

Ok, a little here.....

But all of a sudden I've got "Fuzzy Wuzzy...." running thru my head.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[AXIL]

wfp, that is normal .   axil

[porthole]

My magnet was the same for the first 1 or 2 changes, after that nothing. Except for that one time I had 3 chunks of steel stuck to it.

[Spike]

I think the surgeon left his wrist watch in patient on that last one :  huepfenjump3:

[porthole]

I think the surgeon left his wrist watch in patient on that last one :  huepfenjump3:

Teeth from the clutch basket.

[Spike]

I know but it just reminded me of a Marx bros. film

[skreminegul07]

Magnetic drain plugs, simple but effective.  eep the chit from going round and round and also let you know to look further.

[porthole]

Magnetic drain plugs, simple but effective.  Keep the chit from going round and round and also let you know to look further.

When I dropped the bike off I told them about starting problems, hard cranking, noise - sounds like starter jumping, gave him the picture, they still didn't find anything

[Spike]

isn't nice to know that there are ao many capable techs out there to fix what we tear up.   

[porthole]

isn't nice to know that there are ao many capable techs out there to fix what we tear up.   

Sure is. Still have the starting issues, especially in the mid 90 and above days, mostly after a short shut down period.

Sooner or later I figure something else will break and then we will address the missing teeth problem. Some time ago I had a loose comp nut and I asked them to check the teeth then - still didn't see it

[spydglide]

When I dropped the bike off I told them about starting problems, hard cranking, noise - sounds like starter jumping, gave him the picture, they still didn't find anything

Shouldn't you replace this starter with a CHROME one?    har!  spyder

[Rooster]

Don't worry Bill. We have all done that at one time. At least the new primary drain plug is much better than the older ones. I use a few small spots of black rtv sealant to help keep the rubber gasket in place when replacing the big derby cover. And there is a sequence order to replace the screws.

[porthole]

Shouldn't you replace this starter with a CHROME one?    har!  spyder

Well arn't you just the special guy.

 

Don't worry Bill. We have all done that at one time. At least the new primary drain plug is much better than the older ones. I use a few small spots of black rtv sealant to help keep the rubber gasket in place when replacing the big derby cover. And there is a sequence order to replace the screws.

Those gaskets are designed for no sealers.

[Rooster]

I only use a couple of very small spots just to keep in in place while I put the cover back on

[DESERTBEAR54]

Drilled out all 5 screws and installed chrome allen head screws from ace hardware and torqued. I'm having that same start issue problem that knowone at Harley can solve and like others waiting for a hard stop to tow it in to Harley.

[gordy]

I know what you mean about those Torx bolts.  Another place that the Alloyboltz come in handy.  Haven't had any problem getting these polished stainless 12 point bolts out yet.  Check out Permatex threadlocker low strength-Purple.  I use this on the small diameter bolts and screws on all my bikes.

[Boatman]

The clutch cover T27 torx aren't coming out on my wife's 09 FLHX..  Read all 4 pages.  Will bring an impact driver home from work and get a new T27 bit/socket.  Wish me luck.

[porthole]

The clutch cover T27 torx aren't coming out on my wife's 09 FLHX..  Read all 4 pages.  Will bring an impact driver home from work and get a new T27 bit/socket.  Wish me luck.

Hammer style impact Bob, not a gun!

[Boatman]

Hammer style impact Bob, not a gun!

 

I was wondering how I was going to adapt down from a 1/2" gun to a 1/4" socket.     

[porthole]

This is the driver I was referring too.

[hd-dude]

Just did a 1K service on an 09 today, one of the screws on the derby was so tight that I had to use a hand impact like the one Porthole pictured above. This is not an uncommon problem. Both shops and the MOCO over torque these. By the way, torque is 90-110 inch pounds

[hogasm]

Local dealers mechanic just got one of Snap On's 12v impact guns.

Now everything is installed with one of those instead of a torque wrench

He said he can feel that it is torqued correctly

[porthole]

Local dealers mechanic just got one of Snap On's 12v impact guns.

Now everything is installed with one of those instead of a torque wrench

He said he can feel that it is torqued correctly

We had guys who use to measure the various shims for transmissions, rear axles etc with their fingers 

Some of us would refer to them as having "micrometer fingers"

[Boatman]

Thanks for the tips guys.  Between the impact driver and a new torx bit, they were persuaded to come out.   

[HOGMIKE]

Local dealers mechanic just got one of Snap On's 12v impact guns.

Now everything is installed with one of those instead of a torque wrench

He said he can feel that it is torqued correctly

What state does this "mechanic" work in?
I need to know, so I won't have any work done in that state!!!!
Yeah, I'll hear it all now; "state of denial", and all the rest! LOL

[cheebcrazy]

I'm catching hell removing my clutch inspection cover also. I want to change primary oil an am waiting on a friend to bring by an impact driver and t-27. I hate that Harley went to these crappy torx bolts, especially on anything that needs "torque". One thing is sure, I'm switching every torx head to allen.

[moscooter]

 
"One thing is sure, I'm switching every torx head to allen. "

[FNGw/08SERK]

At 90-110 INCH lbs of torque removal should be no issue at all!! I had the same trouble the first time I dumped the primary fluid and attributed it to the factory over torquing 

Since changing the fluids myself with proper torque ... no issues.     

[sblade1948]

I love the 12 point stainless from AlloyBoltz also.