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[mark]

Heatwave, your last paragraph nails it.  HD's core customer base are aging, out of shape, baby boomers.  They are not the type to buy an adventure, electric, or sport bike.  Those that are interested in buying, aka millennials, are not impressed with the HD image and will not pay a premium price just to get an HD emblem on the tank.

I don't know what the answer is to saving HD, maybe there isn't one.  I do know a $30k 100 mile range electric bike isn't it.

[Heatwave]

Heatwave, your last paragraph nails it.  HD's core customer base are aging, out of shape, baby boomers.  They are not the type to buy an adventure, electric, or sport bike.  Those that are interested in buying, aka millennials, are not impressed with the HD image and will not pay a premium price just to get an HD emblem on the tank.

I don't know what the answer is to saving HD, maybe there isn't one.  I do know a $30k 100 mile range electric bike isn't it.

I think the answer is pretty straight-forward but it'll likely take a company restructuring to lower labor costs and a new management. Refocus on lower prices, improving quality and innovation. Their "bread & butter" is touring bikes and the key to their short term survival. They need a new, lighter mono-shock frame for touring, a RELIABLE, more powerful engine, power adjustable windshield, power adjustable riding modes, more stock features like heated seats and grips, a backup gear for their larger touring bikes AND LOWER PRICING to get customers re-excited about the brand.

That's a tall order but I believe if they don't deliver on these improvements/upgrades in the 2020 models, that are mostly available from their competition, then Harley's best days will be behind them. The Livewire will be a dud to the company's 2020 P&L and without a return to growth in the Touring line, I'm afraid they will end up as a buy-out target long before they can fix their serious structural problems and return to growth. A company that doesn't grow... dies. Its really that simple. And 2018 will be 5 years in a row of declining sales. You can expect the decline of sales in 2019 to be the worst of all. Livewire will most definitely NOT reverse that trend.

[FLSTFI Dave]

Heatwave, your last paragraph nails it.  HD's core customer base are aging, out of shape, baby boomers.  They are not the type to buy an adventure, electric, or sport bike.  Those that are interested in buying, aka millennials, are not impressed with the HD image and will not pay a premium price just to get an HD emblem on the tank.

I don't know what the answer is to saving HD, maybe there isn't one.  I do know a $30k 100 mile range electric bike isn't it.

I'm on the youngest end of boomer at 55 years old.  I did a demo ride on a LiveWire years ago.  Told them I loved it, it they could get a 300 mile or more range.  Had they hit the 300, or maybe even 250  mile range, and a reasonable price I would have been all over it.  But at a 70 mile range at speeds over 60, not at all interested, as I could only ride to town and back.  They price for such a short range is crazy high.

I sure hope the do not miss the mark as bad with the PanAmerica.  I have been very interested in an Adventure bike.  However I'm thinking they will be way off the mark on it also. If it cant compete with the BMW GS it will miss the mark and not help sales much.

[Heatwave]

I'm on the youngest end of boomer at 55 years old.  I did a demo ride on a LiveWire years ago.  Told them I loved it, it they could get a 300 mile or more range.  Had they hit the 300, or maybe even 250  mile range, and a reasonable price I would have been all over it.  But at a 70 mile range at speeds over 60, not at all interested, as I could only ride to town and back.  They price for such a short range is crazy high.

I sure hope the do not miss the mark as bad with the PanAmerica.  I have been very interested in an Adventure bike.  However I'm thinking they will be way off the mark on it also. If it cant compete with the BMW GS it will miss the mark and not help sales much.

Their Livewire will be DOA. Next month Zero launches its latest electric motorcycle. $13,000. 150mph top speed, 150 mile range. 35min recharge. Harley won't stand a chance with Livewire against that price point and features.

https://electrek.co/2019/01/17/lightning-electric-motorcycle-strike/

If the city commuter is the target audience for this type of electric bike which one is likely to succeed? The $13,000, 150 mile range, 150mph top speed, 35min charging electric motorcycle OR the $30,000, 110 mile range, 92mph top speed, 3.5hr charging electric motorcycle? Duhhhhh

[mark]

Perhaps this is already in the works...but if I were the CEO of Polaris, I'd have my Indian R&D guys replicating the technology from Zero and Lightning and develop an e-bike at that price-point with killer looks.  Half the cost of the Livewire, better range and performance, and available at a broader dealer network than the upstart e-bike makers can offer.  Same holds true for Ducati and BMW...I see many manufacturers jumping on the e-bike train.

[Heatwave]

Perhaps this is already in the works...but if I were the CEO of Polaris, I'd have my Indian R&D guys replicating the technology from Zero and Lightning and develop an e-bike at that price-point with killer looks.  Half the cost of the Livewire, better range and performance, and available at a broader dealer network than the upstart e-bike makers can offer.  Same holds true for Ducati and BMW...I see many manufacturers jumping on the e-bike train.

Faster, easier path is for Polaris or BMW or Honda to buy one of startup ebike manufacturers. Easy peasy decision. Its probably already in negotiations!

[mslcpa]

I had an M8/114 Limited for a week (loaner) and loved it, but wouldn't spend $30K+ knowing that it might spend more time in the shop than on the road. After 17 years of production the TC was a pretty reliable platform with a few mods and a little preventative maintenance. Shouldn't have to do anything (read Goldwing), but that's the way it is.

HD should scrap the M8, take their losses and bring back the TC!

[kojak]

There is so much bullchit on this forum, its beyond crazy. I have a 2017 cvo limited now with 15k miles, 2 years, zero issues and its the best harley i've owned to date in decades of riding. I have 2 lifelong riding buddies with m8's who love their bikes. Every model year has had some issues, tc110's were the worst.

I had an M8/114 Limited for a week (loaner) and loved it, but wouldn't spend $30K+ knowing that it might spend more time in the shop than on the road. After 17 years of production the TC was a pretty reliable platform with a few mods and a little preventative maintenance. Shouldn't have to do anything (read Goldwing), but that's the way it is.

HD should scrap the M8, take their losses and bring back the TC!

[Phreakyz]

There is so much bullchit on this forum, its beyond crazy. I have a 2017 cvo limited now with 15k miles, 2 years, zero issues and its the best harley i've owned to date in decades of riding. I have 2 lifelong riding buddies with m8's who love their bikes. Every model year has had some issues, tc110's were the worst.

Thank you! I have been dying to say the same thing.   10's of thousands of M8s on the road with no problems.  Everyone just wants to bash...  Mostly guys with older (Non M8) bikes,  124 Mods,  or Doing wheelies on Touring Bikes???  Riding their bikes at 4 and 5 thousand RPMs for an hour at a time...   And can you guess that they have had mutiple M8s and they all have sumped??   Go Figure.    Half of them need to find an Indian enthusiast site because I don't think they like Harley's or CVOs.  My Humble Opinion.

[Heatwave]

Thank you! I have been dying to say the same thing.   10's of thousands of M8s on the road with no problems.  Everyone just wants to bash...  Mostly guys with older (Non M8) bikes,  124 Mods,  or Doing wheelies on Touring Bikes???  Riding their bikes at 4 and 5 thousand RPMs for an hour at a time...   And can you guess that they have had mutiple M8s and they all have sumped??   Go Figure.    Half of them need to find an Indian enthusiast site because I don't think they like Harley's or CVOs.  My Humble Opinion.

That's a very fair comment. Unfortunately problems get exaggerated but the kernel of truth inside the problem can't be denied. In fact HD doesn't deny the issues with the M8 by the fact that they have published multiple versions of the TSBs effecting the M8s. They've had 10 versions of oil pumps in just over 2 years.

I think there would be a tremendous amount of forgiveness for a company that alot of people are loyal to if it weren't for the fact that the problems remain uncorrected after 3 model years.

But a few voices on the internet are hardly the issue or really even matter that much. HD is losing serious market share and massive loss of unit sales compared to competitors. It can not continue for this iconic American company without a very bad outcome in the future. They either get their sh*t together soon or the writing is on the wall for all to see.

[BigLock]

I have 2 CVO RG one is a 12 that has 50000 miles on it and I ride it like I stole it mostly highway miles rolling at around 75 to 80 on long road trips.That bike hasn't been into stock lifters and all. Now bike # 2 a 18 and I ride it the same way to and just got it back yesterday they had to put a oil pump in it with 9600 miles I love my CVO's and I've been riding Harley for over 40 yrs. My point is fix the problem if my 18 sumps again I may let it go to a new home. Also have a 15 RGS so letting a problem go will not hurt as bad as the problem child.

[FLSTFI Dave]

I had an M8/114 Limited for a week (loaner) and loved it, but wouldn't spend $30K+ knowing that it might spend more time in the shop than on the road. After 17 years of production the TC was a pretty reliable platform with a few mods and a little preventative maintenance. Shouldn't have to do anything (read Goldwing), but that's the way it is.

HD should scrap the M8, take their losses and bring back the TC!

While I know they can sump, and some will for sure, maybe all will under the right condition.

That said of my 4 110 Twin cam CVO touring bikes, 2 had lifter failure.  One had two compensators, one had hydraulic clutch failure.  One never had a chance as I built the motor with 1500 miles on the bike, Had the heads done, beehive springs rather than HD's to heavy springs, and much better lifters.    Both lifter failures occurred with over 40K on the bikes, on still in warranty by 2 days, motor replaced with 44K on the bike, the other was 46K miles.

I'm on my 3rd CVO M8.  I put 21,500 trouble free miles on my 17 CVO Street Glide.  I put 24,850 miles on my 18 CVO Road Glide, trouble free.  Took two 5000 plus mile vacations on it, on to Glacier in the Summer and the Other to AZ, NM and South TX in Sept.  I now am on a 19 CVO Road Glide.

My bike are ridden, and pretty hard.  On the way to Glacier, first day I rode 1065 miles in 14.5 hours.  I also did a Iron Butt, 1500 miles in 33 hours on it.  Then I did 980 in 13 hours on my way to AZ.  I also push it hard in the curves.

Maybe I have been lucky with the sumping. 

I think it is a better engine, makes more power, runs smoother.   

[BigLock]

I do agree with you they make good power. When they changed out my oil pump shop foreman which is also my tuner for my 12 ask if I wanted to change the cam out. So I did have it change to the power cam which is the cam for the stage 2 up grade in 117's bike is under factory warranty. So all I pay for was the cam kit . It do pull better put they still need to find out why they sump they may need engine builders instead from engineers that keeps saying this will fix it

[scottt]

I think the answer is pretty straight-forward but it'll likely take a company restructuring to lower labor costs and a new management. Refocus on lower prices, improving quality and innovation. Their "bread & butter" is touring bikes and the key to their short term survival. They need a new, lighter mono-shock frame for touring, a RELIABLE, more powerful engine, power adjustable windshield, power adjustable riding modes, more stock features like heated seats and grips, a backup gear for their larger touring bikes AND LOWER PRICING to get customers re-excited about the brand.

That's a tall order but I believe if they don't deliver on these improvements/upgrades in the 2020 models, that are mostly available from their competition, then Harley's best days will be behind them. The Livewire will be a dud to the company's 2020 P&L and without a return to growth in the Touring line, I'm afraid they will end up as a buy-out target long before they can fix their serious structural problems and return to growth. A company that doesn't grow... dies. Its really that simple. And 2018 will be 5 years in a row of declining sales. You can expect the decline of sales in 2019 to be the worst of all. Livewire will most definitely NOT reverse that trend.

I'm a example of what this post details. After 28 years on Harleys, 12 new bikes, i switched.

Bought a new 18 BMW K1600B or Bagger. Has all the features. Really performs with it's 160HP straight 6cyl. Handles, rides, does it all. You really gotta ride one to appreciate.

Rolland Sands out of California  helped BMW design the bike.

It pained me to switch in many ways, simply couldn't ignore what this bike offered. At some point I'd like to buy a used Harley, i still like them and would enjoy for occasional rides. I would look for a older twin cam with carb. A simple Harley with the superior crank offered between 1999 and 2003.

Hopefully Harley gets it together. Feel bad for owners of current M8's when the change happens as values will drop like a rock.

Time will tell

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

[Bob Coco]

Thank you! I have been dying to say the same thing.   10's of thousands of M8s on the road with no problems.  Everyone just wants to bash...  Mostly guys with older (Non M8) bikes,  124 Mods,  or Doing wheelies on Touring Bikes???  Riding their bikes at 4 and 5 thousand RPMs for an hour at a time...   And can you guess that they have had mutiple M8s and they all have sumped??   Go Figure.    Half of them need to find an Indian enthusiast site because I don't think they like Harley's or CVOs.  My Humble Opinion.

What you said is ridiculous. I am one of the guys that have sumped multiple bikes, multiple times.  All the sumping occurred in 6th. gear at speeds between 65 and maybe 80 mph.  Not really excessive considering the speed limits in some areas were 70 mph.  I also have 2 Twin Cams and an Evo.  My 2016 CVO RoadGlide Ultra was only a few days old with maybe 200 miles on it  when I rode it almost 5,000 miles in 10 days. I was running 80-90 mph through full tanks of gas to get to Myrtle Beach. That bike still runs perfect and hasn't been to a dealer for anything more then services and a new tire. (Due to a nail)

I also happen to have the 124 C.I. 2016 Road Glide Special that does pull wheelies without any hesitation. And it doesn't sump or break down at all. And then theirs the Evo Well honestly I don't ride it much because it's a pristine 98 Anniversary Road King with 7,000 miles but I do have full confidence I could take any of these bikes from New York to Florida stopping only for fuel, food and bathroom usage. My 17,18 and now 19 CVO's haven't gone more then a few hundred miles without sumping. I bought the 17 to replace my 16 CVO StreetGlide (White/Purple) because I saw three of them being ridden by girls in Panama City and had I known about sumping I'd still be on that 16.