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[Bob Coco]

I don't have a dog in this race, I own one of the last TCs made,  but I will use the information/stories in threads like this to make good choices when time comes for me to buy. sorry to those that got fauked on the M8.... and best wishes to those that didn't     

Fast Freddy, The only reason I still have some sanity is because I still have 2 2016 Roadglides.   I have a Red CVO Ultra and a Black Quartz Special that's punched to 124 C.I. making big power.  My Ultra I bought after my 17 sumped afew times.  I saw it sitting on the showroom floor next to an 18 CVO Limited and without a single hesitation I bought it knowing it was the last twin cam CVO Ultra RoadGlide I would probably see that was new. 

[johnmowcop]

Not in particular response to Bob Coco's discussions but just getting onto the tail end of this discussion.

As a point of interest.

A precedent has already been made for sumping about 65 years ago, it was called over oiling then. The bike was a Panther 120. See this link:  https://sump-publishing.co.uk/panther.htm
The "sump-publishing" is entirely coincidental but apt at this moment in time..

If you do not want to read the article this is an extract that refers to the issue and the resolution:

"One major problem of the Model 120 was over-oiling. Panther’s long established oil-scavenge system incorporates a primitive, but (until the Model 120) effective knife-edge weir in which the flywheels scoop oil from the engine cases into the integral oil tank (wedge shaped chamber forward of the timing chest). The clearance is only 60 thousandths of an inch."

Reading the many "sumping" posts one of the solutions presented is in effect a scrapper forming a weir, which coincidently has a clearance of 0.060" - same as the above solution. small world isn't it.

Seems like all the high falutin engineers at Harley need to relate to history to solve problems that have already been encountered by others. I bet the Panther solution was developed by a fella with a pencil and a bit of paper in a workshop, maybe discussing it with a colleague. How many "Engineers" have Harley had looking at the issue an still not resolved it.

JohnT

[mark]

johnmowcop, I read you post and I agree.  I also believe HD engineers and mgmt know what the problem is.  However, to recall every M8, remove the engine, disassemble, install a fix, reassemble, and reinstall the engine, would be so costly & time consuming as to tank HD stock even further - perhaps bankrupting the MoCo.  So, what we've seen so far are easy, less costly, "solutions," hoping one eventually counters the sumping problem.

 

[grc]

johnmowcop, I read you post and I agree.  I also believe HD engineers and mgmt know what the problem is.  However, to recall every M8, remove the engine, disassemble, install a fix, reassemble, and reinstall the engine, would be so costly & time consuming as to tank HD stock even further - perhaps bankrupting the MoCo.  So, what we've seen so far are easy, less costly, "solutions," hoping one eventually counters the sumping problem.

 

EXACTLY!, although I'm not as confident in the abilities of Harley's own engineers as you might be.  But I'm sure they have engineering consultants who could figure out the root cause, so I agree they very likely know the real root cause of the problem and they also won't fix that root cause any time soon due to the costs involved.  Band-Aids are the most you will see, and those band-aids will reduce the failure rate somewhat but will not eliminate the failures completely.  When they get a chance to make a design change they can claim has nothing to do with sumping, they will slip in a real fix.  I'm not just making this up btw, I've seen it done not only by H-D but by auto companies in the past.  The aftermarket has already identified a problem related to the new cases, similar to what is mentioned in johnmowcop's post.  There's a video around here showing exactly what they found and the proposed fix.  Looks and sounds reasonable to me, at least a lot more than the bogus oil pump housing seal Harley put out.

Only time will tell, I doubt anyone in the know at Harley will ever admit the real problem.

JMHO - Jerry

[J.D.]

Agree, as long as the vast majority don't sump we'll likely never see a drastic design change.  Certainly not any sort of voluntary recall or update on the MoCo's dime.

[Twolanerider]

There's a video around here showing exactly what they found and the proposed fix.  Looks and sounds reasonable to me, at least a lot more than the bogus oil pump housing seal Harley put out.

[yobtaf103]

C'mon its tradition its a Harley!
Didn't they swap out all 1930 engine lower ends, bad vibes
1936 Knuck launch delayed due to over oiling top end

funny with time all these are noted , but bikes reach a classic revered status

[johnmowcop]

Yes that's the one I referred too. 0.060" distance to scraper from flywheel circumference.

JohnT

[J.D.]

Modern synthetic 20w-50 is an interesting fluid.  It's heavy like gear oil.  It's sticky, clingy, and "climbs" on moving parts.  Wonder if these fluid characteristics are part of the issue.

[Heatwave]

Modern synthetic 20w-50 is an interesting fluid.  It's heavy like gear oil.  It's sticky, clingy, and "climbs" on moving parts.  Wonder if these fluid characteristics are part of the issue.

I run the exact same oil (Syn3) in my modified 110 TC that makes 123/123, as I did in my stage IV M8 117. Both are factory recommended and were delivered from the factory with Syn3.

The 110 has never sumped in 70,000 hard ridden miles. The Stage IV M8 117 Stage IV sumped 3 engines in less than 10,000 miles with the exact same riding style.

The synthetic oil is unrelated to sumping in the M8 other than the fact that, under the right conditions, there’s more oil in the crankcase than the engine designers planned.

[Phantom309]

I'm glad to see a video I originally posted before last Thanksgiving is finally getting noticed, lol. I guess you don't want to attempt that one until your warranty is up however. We all know who the MOCO will blame for any other issues that may arise after installing their scraper if the warranty is still intact. As usual, leave it to the aftermarket/speed shops to fix HD's shortcomings.

[rayson56]

Modern synthetic 20w-50 is an interesting fluid.  It's heavy like gear oil.  It's sticky, clingy, and "climbs" on moving parts.  Wonder if these fluid characteristics are part of the issue.

Just out of curiosity has anyone experienced sumping using any oil other than Syn 3? I use Mobile 1 V Twin. Anyone sump using that?

[SDCVO]

Just out of curiosity has anyone experienced sumping using any oil other than Syn 3? I use Mobile 1 V Twin. Anyone sump using that?

Amsoil for me but don't think that has anything to do with it. Been using it for years

[hd-dude]

Just out of curiosity has anyone experienced sumping using any oil other than Syn 3? I use Mobile 1 V Twin. Anyone sump using that?

The likelyhood of the brand of oil being used causing the sumping is about as common as hens teeth...

[J.D.]

Not saying the oil or brand of oil is causing the issue as Evos and Twin Cams use the same oil, but oil doesn't simply drain through tiny crevices and move like water.  Its stickiness and surface tension can enable it to do some interesting things inside a running engine.  Just thinking out loud so to speak; perhaps HD over simplified things.