Topic: 103 proven hop up (Read 18400 times)

sbcharlie · « **on:** July 06, 2004, 08:22:49 PM »

we have modified many 103 engines for customers with proven results. the first thing that i feel inportant is keep the engine original for future value. the biggest problem is the heads and compression. the 103 stock is an epa engine and has a hemi designed combustion chamber with a flat-top piston. what we do is weld heads combustion chamber and replace both guides and seats. we machine in a twin swirl combustion chamber and install a 2in intake valve, we stick with stock exhaust vale size. we set compression to match cam, we set at 10.1/1, recomend andrews tw55 cam is our choice or S&S 585. we see 112-115 ft llbs of torque and 108-111 hp under 5200 rpm.at 2200 rpm we see 98 ft lbs of torque.these are mild engine builds, we have to consider the crankshaft non timken bearing issue. we port heads to 2in valve and repaint heads to match there bead blasted paint finish. we use standard 103 pistons and .030 cometic head gasket.i strongly urge the use of an efi tuner to control efi igntion and fuel mangement. the efi tuner has a anti knock sensors that assist in getting a correct igntion curve. we have proven fuel maps with flatline air fuel ratios that stay at 13.5 air fuel curves.i do recomend a fueling oil pump to assist in oil scavanging.i also recomend compression releases to assist in heat soak to assist in starting to help save starter. with our choice of cam and compression we target compression at 180 lbs.
thanks short block charlie

Cabo · « **Reply #1 on:** July 15, 2004, 12:42:50 PM »

how much does something like the work you described cost? I currently have a SEEG with SE stage 1, 257 cams, and Rinehart exhast and a PC3. I installed porker tork cones and the 2" baffles totry and get more back pressure. Just had my bike dynoed at Cliff Piper's and was unimpressed to say the least. The Fuel curve was terrible but all I got was a max of 96lb tork and 90hp at 5000rpm (Cliff wouldnt go any higher rpm cuz it was running too lean at the top..and too rich between 2000rpm and 3000 rpm). Tork at 2000 rpm (were the fuel ration was close to correct) was only 74lb.

The fuel curve was below 10 at 2500rpm and over 18 at 3600rpm. Gonna have it dyno tuned next week unless I decide to make any changes to the motor before then.

Ps I am not posting the sheet cuz it sucks too bad!

Thanks

sbcharlie · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2004, 08:45:35 AM »

cliff piper is good friend of mine. i wentto his shop this spring and showed how to build these engines. do you have a efi tuner on the bike? on head modification we charge
$750.00 for everthing include new valves, seats and guides. the springs that come with these heads are good for mild lift cams that we recomend. thanks charlie

Cabo · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2004, 12:59:33 PM »

Have you had any experience with the gear driven Woods Cams? They look to be similar to the S&S 585 or the SE 251 but gear driven.

Yes I have a Power commander.. Thats how I found Cliff.

How long does it take you to perform the work (when you get back from Montana) once you Get the heads? I am Interested.

Also the torque and HP number you are using, what exhaust was used?

sbcharlie · « **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2004, 09:19:05 AM »

i will be back in august 5 . it takes a week to perform the work on your heads. i think bob woods makes some neat cam grinds that would work well with our heads.the only thing i am conerned about is your power commander. the fuel curves will not be a problem it is the ignition curves. the efi tuner has many options like ignition retard and such. we have had good sucess with rhineharts, vance and hines and white brothers.thanks charlie

nitz · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2004, 02:21:59 PM »

New to the board although I was a vistior for some time before my recent purchase of an 03 Serk. Charlie, your proven hop-up has sparked my curiosity to say the least. I've already installed the race tuner, Rinehart's, and an SE air kit. Are your maps available if I would decide to install cams and have head work done?

sbcharlie · « **Reply #6 on:** July 24, 2004, 08:07:40 AM »

we have many mapps to assist you on your engine modification.
thanks charlie

laylonlor · « **Reply #7 on:** August 09, 2004, 09:03:44 PM »

[smiley=shifty.gif]had a race tuner, s/e slip ons, s/e air cleaner,installed today , on my o4 seeg at hannums H D in media pa. and had it dynoed also ,i got 89 hp and 93 tourqe, i was expecting more than that, after reading what some others have posted, but hannums has an out dated dyno ,it does't have the stiffer, i want to get it tuned by some one who knows how to do it , in this area , does any one know of any............thanks [smiley=worthless.gif]

laylonlor · « **Reply #8 on:** August 09, 2004, 09:08:40 PM »

[smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]how can i get 100 hp on my seeg, somebody help me [smiley=6.gif]

gb · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2004, 11:26:39 AM »

Ok...Here you go. [smiley=beerchug.gif]. I got almost 100 on a hot day 0 humidity @close to 2000' above sea level.http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=g1;action=display;num=1073810022;start=15

03 serk
se racing slip-ons
se breather
se 258 cams
se race tuner. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

JCZ · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2004, 06:01:26 PM »

Quote

Ok...Here you go. [smiley=beerchug.gif]. I got almost 100 on a hot day 0 humidity @close to 2000' above sea level.http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=g1;action=display;num=1073810022;start=15

03 serk
se racing slip-ons
se breather
se 258 cams
se race tuner. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

2000' above sea level.......your dyno numbers look good to me. I believe mine was 101 HP and 104 lb. ft torque (it's posted here on this site, someplace) and that's at 20' above sea level (temp. makes a difference, also) with SE high flow air cleaner, Race Tuner and Vance & Hines Pro Pipe. That's about what the others were getting, with similar mods.

laylonlor · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2004, 09:11:13 PM »

WHAT MODEL DYNO MACH. DID YOU USE TO GET YOUR 100 HP ON [smiley=beerchug.gif]

gb · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2004, 12:03:59 PM »

Dynojet. Don;t know what model, but you can call Barnett HD in el paso and ask them the model. 915-592-5804.
Hope this helps. [smiley=laugh.gif]

laylonlor · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2004, 10:11:57 PM »

thanks i'll call texas about the dyno

Sir_Nuke · « **Reply #14 on:** November 16, 2004, 10:04:03 PM »

I believe the dyno at Barnetts is a DynoJet 250 Chassis dyno.....but they are not a DynoJet tuning center....but the know what they are doing.

PCC · « **Reply #15 on:** November 17, 2004, 02:12:46 PM »

Shouldn't matter Nuke... as long as the Dynojet will talk to the PowerCommander...should be golden.

Sir_Nuke · « **Reply #16 on:** November 22, 2004, 10:33:32 PM »

Quote

Shouldn't matter Nuke... as long as the Dynojet will talk to the PowerCommander...should be golden.

oh it will talk to it....when I said they were not a 'TUNING CENTER" I ment they are not a "DYNOJET" authorized tuning center.....dynojet is in kahootz with some dealers as authorized dynojet dealers as well......

in fact the place that I know of in the houston area that is the absolute best with setting up the power commander is NOT a dynojet tuning center......but they do use their 250 chassis dyno.

ratrbridin · « **Reply #17 on:** December 14, 2004, 11:09:45 AM »

I totalled a 2000 FLSTC in October and have replaced with an '05 Red/Red FLHTCSE2. Motor is being rebuilt now. Using SE Pro+ pistons and heads (10.5/1 compression), SE264 cams, Forcewinder intake and D&D Fat cat 2 into 1 exhaust. Computer models estimate somewhere in the neighborhood of 118 lbs torque, 118-120hp. I'll let you know how it turns out.

kbiforce · « **Reply #18 on:** December 14, 2004, 09:27:39 PM »

Are you using the stock 103 heads that came with the bike for your build? I want to bump the compression on my 04 103 and am thinking of changing pistons.

mr_magoo · « **Reply #19 on:** December 15, 2004, 08:34:53 AM »

Ratrbridin welcome to the site keep us posted as to how the setup works and the figures you end up with.

ratrbridin · « **Reply #20 on:** December 15, 2004, 11:29:49 AM »

Hey, Thanks for the warm welcome, guys. To answer KBIFORCE's question.....We are using SE Pro+ heads. I think I'm using the right name. They are in the Screamin' Eagle performance catalog, right over or under the HTCC heads for 95"ers. So someone may correct me on the name, as I cannot put my hands on my book at the moment. These heads matched with the forged high compression pistons will net 10.5/1 compression ratio. The heads come machined for compression releases that I am installing. Valves are HUGE! You can fit a couple sheets of paper between 'em. The SE 264 cams are relatively new to the market (so I'm told) and are rated at .635 lift. This thing oughta thump pretty good. I spoke to the guy turning the wrenches today. I'm still recovering from back surgery due to the crash. He said we should be making smoke by early next week. I'll let you guys know as soon as I do how we did.

ratrbridin · « **Reply #21 on:** December 15, 2004, 12:02:01 PM »

Found my book....Screamin' Eagle Pro Twin Cam 103+ Heads / SE Pro Twin Cam 103+ Stroker Pistons. The combo is supposed to maximize HP output.

Spook_103 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 15, 2004, 12:30:54 PM »

Don't mean to pee on your parade, but I would really reconsider that cam choice as it will give you a bike that is great on the top end and sucks on the bottom (2500-3500 RPM). This is the RPM range that most sane folks drive in 95% of the time. The SE264 is the same cam they stick in the JIMS 120 motor. I am in the process of building my SE103 motor and will be using the HTCC CNC heads with matching 10.5 pistons and will use either the SE251 or the SE258's at most. Check on the Harley Tech Board. One of the main wrenches there claims the best cam for your 103+ heads would be something like the Andrews 55 or Woods 6GH. Basically you want a cam that has a duration of 40-50 degrees Max, or most of your power will be top end, exactly where most of us do not want it for a bagger. Just my .02, and it's your money and bike. Spook.

ratrbridin · « **Reply #23 on:** December 15, 2004, 07:18:38 PM »

Don't hold back, Spook. That's one of the reasons I'm here. I questioned the wrenches choice of cam for that exact reason, but he claims with a stroker you will still have bottom end. Stroker and injected is a new trip for me. You mentioned a HArley Tech Board? Where do I go...... Thanks again for the opinion/advice, hey I had to build the top end of my last FL 3 times before we got it smokin'

FREBRD · « **Reply #24 on:** December 15, 2004, 07:38:57 PM »

THERE IS A GUY IN MISSOURI NAMED JOHN GOLDEN. HE DOES MOBILE RACE TUNING. HE IS AT ALOT OF THE RALLYS. WHEN I BUILT MY 80 INCH EVO, HE TUNED IT AND GOT 97.6HP TO THE BACK TIRE CONSISTANTLY.

PCC · « **Reply #25 on:** December 15, 2004, 08:34:59 PM »

I agree with Spook. You'll feel a whole lot happier with either of the cams he suggested. I believe that if you put those 264's in after one season you'll be looking for a differrent cam. I'm running the Woods TW6HG (at .590 lift, it's a little quieter in the valve train), and basically the same setup as you're putting in, although I didn't want to go that high on the compression.

I'm using stroker flat top pistons with ceramic coating on the tops and silicon based coating on the skirts. I'm running CNC ported heads which, in Harley's approximation, is good for 9.8/1 compression. With .030 Cometic gaskets the cylinders cc'd to 10.025/1....perfect...no ping... no compression releases neccessary.

My dyno numbers were 118.6 hp and 121.3 ft lbs. tq.

I have had the throttle body ported...otherwise everything is just as from the box

Oh.... I run Freedom Cycle pipes.

[smiley=beerchug.gif]

kbiforce · « **Reply #26 on:** December 15, 2004, 10:04:56 PM »

Is it possible to bump the compression to 10:1 with the stock heads? I'm still confused as to what the stock heads are. Are they the performance heads PN 16952-99B? Thanks!

Spook_103 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 16, 2004, 10:40:01 AM »

Stock heads are what come on the bike from the factory. For 05 they are changed from the earlier heads, something to do with the valve guides and stems. I think the jury is still out on what can be done to them perfomance wise. The next step up is the SE heads, they flow better than stock but most folks feel they should be "cleaned up" by someone who knows what they are doing, like SMB. Next on the SE food chain are the HTCC non ported heads. They, in combination with a cam of 240-250 degrees are designed to have good torque and over 100 HP from a 95 inch motor (or a 103 for that matter). Next are the heads you are talking about, the SE103 + heads and matching pistons. They will flow better than the non-ported HTCC heads and have a "hemi" style combustion chamber much like what you see on the Jims 120 motor. They are nicely complemented by again a cam like the Andrew TW55. The best flowing head is the HTCC CNC ported heads. They will work with your SE264 to give great top end, but at the price of less torque at the bottom and midrange. You will have to rev the motor to get the most from it. Just remember, you don't ride a dyno and great dyno numbers don't get it done on the street in most instances, especially with a heavy bagger with one or two up. I have played the head/cam game a number of times and can tell you true, the more conservative cam is the way to go for a street bike that you will like to ride. The Harley Tech Board can be found a "Harley Tech Talk". Ride safe. Spook.

the O`Fender · « **Reply #28 on:** December 16, 2004, 02:10:20 PM »

Quote

I agree with Spook. You'll feel a whole lot happier with either of the cams he suggested. I believe that if you put those 264's in after one season you'll be looking for a differrent cam. I'm running the Woods TW6HG (at .590 lift, it's a little quieter in the valve train), and basically the same setup as you're putting in, although I didn't want to go that high on the compression.

I'm using stroker flat top pistons with ceramic coating on the tops and silicon based coating on the skirts. I'm running CNC ported heads which, in Harley's approximation, is good for 9.8/1 compression. With .030 Cometic gaskets the cylinders cc'd to 10.025/1....perfect...no ping... no compression releases neccessary.

My dyno numbers were 118.6 hp and 121.3 ft lbs. tq.

I have had the throttle body ported...otherwise everything is just as from the box

Oh.... I run Freedom Cycle pipes.

[smiley=beerchug.gif]

PCC tell me more about the woods cam, how much more valve train noise is their (compared to stock)? where does it turn on and off at?

ratrbridin · « **Reply #29 on:** December 16, 2004, 02:13:47 PM »

Thanks Spook, much appreciated!

Spook_103 · « **Reply #30 on:** December 16, 2004, 03:23:43 PM »

Not a problem. Good luck with the build. Spook.

the O`Fender · « **Reply #31 on:** December 16, 2004, 04:46:27 PM »

Quote

Is it possible to bump the compression to 10:1 with the stock heads? I'm still confused as to what the stock heads are. Are they the performance heads PN 16952-99B? Thanks!

No that part # is not the heads installed on these scooters (they are not in the catalog). Yes it is possible to raise the compression to 10:1 with stock heads, some options are smaller gaskets (reducing the thickness) that alone will not get you to 10:1 so "decking" is the next option (machining some material off the gasket surface area), or you can just buy some pistons to achieve 10:1 you probably have to go to the aftermarket because I believe harley only offers 10.25:1 (cast) or 10.5:1 (forged).
Njoy [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

PCC · « **Reply #32 on:** December 16, 2004, 05:07:04 PM »

O' fender:

I'm just whing about the fact that lifters and pushrods and rocker arms and hipo valve springs make more noise when they are lifted farther. Compared to stock that is. Now I've never used a real high lift cam (over .600) but I just assume that if my .590 makes more noise than my .530...then a .640 is probably not in my future. For touring around...the more noise you add...exhaust, mechanical, wind etc. the tired'er you get...the farther you go....

I didn't mean to say that the Woods cams were noisier than others, they're not. The are however, as nearly as I can tell more powerful than the T55's or S & S 585's. They have a little more aggressive ramp. I think that might account for some of the noise factor too.

Did I just contradict myself?

[smiley=confused5.gif]

delnel · « **Reply #33 on:** December 17, 2004, 08:20:27 AM »

SBC do you have any dyno sheets to show your HP and TQ numbers after your head work and either of your cam picks and with Rinehart exhaust. If so I would really like to see them. I have Rineharts and SE air cleaner and Race Tuner on my bike and am looking for a little more. DelNel [smiley=beerchug.gif]

the O`Fender · « **Reply #34 on:** December 17, 2004, 09:44:01 AM »

Quote

O' fender:

I'm just whing about the fact that lifters and pushrods and rocker arms and hipo valve springs make more noise when they are lifted farther. Compared to stock that is. Now I've never used a real high lift cam (over .600) but I just assume that if my .590 makes more noise than my .530...then a .640 is probably not in my future. For touring around...the more noise you add...exhaust, mechanical, wind etc. the tired'er you get...the farther you go....

I didn't mean to say that the Woods cams were noisier than others, they're not. The are however, as nearly as I can tell more powerful than the T55's or S & S 585's. They have a little more aggressive ramp. I think that might account for some of the noise factor too.

Did I just contradict myself?

[smiley=confused5.gif]

PCC aggressive ramps have more of an impact on valve train noise than just high lift does!!! That is why I asked you if the cam was noisy, I know that woods likes to use aggressive ramps (not sure how aggressive). So please try to elborate on your answer. I am in the cam shopping mode and have never used woods cams, and from the looks of his cam profiles I would think they are loud. I have been using the leineweber cams for alot of years with great results but they are very noisy not my 1st choice for my bagger/touring scooter.

PCC · « **Reply #35 on:** December 21, 2004, 11:53:05 AM »

You know what O'Fender... In my bikes... all of the performance cams I've used have made the valve train noiseier...so in my book it doesn't really matter whose right about ramps or lift or whatever. I don't think there's any ELABORATION to be done, but hey...thanks for the education.

ratrbridin · « **Reply #36 on:** December 21, 2004, 07:03:11 PM »

My bike's running. Too late to question the SE 264 cams. I had roller rockers installed, which by the way mandated some minor mods to be made to the inner webbing on the covers. Intake valves were being held open allowing blow by, but anyway.... I can't hear any mechanical noise that causes me any concern AT ALL! Honest to God, my bike sounds like a top fuel dragster staging as soon as it begins to get up on the cams. Andthat's around 1800 - 2000 rpm. Guys, everybody on the east side of Atlanta is talking about this motor. Forcewinder intake is out, hit the lowers. I have opted to go with a Kuryakyn Hypercharger Pro Series. I think it'll maintain the trick look I want to stick with and allow the airflow that to heads will require. Happy so far. I'm picking it up next week for our New Years Day Ride. Stone Mountain HD is footing the bill for the dyno runs, but I want to put a 1000 or so on it before they do.

the O`Fender · « **Reply #37 on:** December 23, 2004, 10:53:46 AM »

Quote

You know what O'Fender... In my bikes... all of the performance cams I've used have made the valve train noiseier...so in my book it doesn't really matter whose right about ramps or lift or whatever. I don't think there's any ELABORATION to be done, but hey...thanks for the education.

PCC if you won't elaborate how about a simple number, if a stock cam equals "1" and unbearable valve train noise equals "5" where does your cam rate?

PCC · « **Reply #38 on:** December 23, 2004, 12:23:01 PM »

O'Fender...you must be an attorney. It's just louder...OK!!!! I can stand the noise... but I ride a lot of miles.. like 20 - 30,000 a year and sometimes it anoys me. 200-300 miles...not a problem.

the O`Fender · « **Reply #39 on:** December 27, 2004, 01:51:35 PM »

Quote

O'Fender...you must be an attorney. It's just louder...OK!!!! I can stand the noise... but I ride a lot of miles.. like 20 - 30,000 a year and sometimes it anoys me. 200-300 miles...not a problem.

What is it that time a month again? [smiley=bigcry.gif] I know your probably just to busy putting all those miles on. thanks for your input "BRO" you 've been real helpful. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

PCC · « **Reply #40 on:** December 27, 2004, 03:14:13 PM »

Sooooo.... beacuse i can't describe it better... you get pissed off?

?
I'm not going to say anything more to offend you, but I think the "BRO' comment was not necessary.

kbiforce · « **Reply #41 on:** December 31, 2004, 06:15:33 PM »

Everyone interested in making their 103 run a little better, check out the latest American Rider. In the Tech section with Joe Minton, he says the factory cams are too big and says to run the 204's advanced 4 degrees or use the TW21's. Pretty interesting! Thought I'd pass on the info. Happy New Year and Happy Motoring!!!!!

DW6019 · « **Reply #42 on:** December 31, 2004, 08:39:10 PM »

I, who pretty much doubt everything, DO trust Joe Minton, I have talked with him, he is very impressive. Knows his stuff! His cam assumption is hard to take, as bigger always seems better, but probably true.

MAS · « **Reply #43 on:** January 02, 2005, 04:30:24 PM »

Quote

Everyone interested in making their 103 run a little better, check out the latest American Rider. In the Tech section with Joe Minton, he says the factory cams are too big and says to run the 204's advanced 4 degrees or use the TW21's. Pretty interesting! Thought I'd pass on the info. Happy New Year and Happy Motoring!!!!!

Very interesting...I am going to put a new set of cams in and have almost decided on the 211's based on their specs and a dyno sheet posted on this site with them compared to our CVO 253 cam. This will give me another option to make my head spin [smiley=idea.gif].

geezerglide · « **Reply #44 on:** January 02, 2005, 06:33:59 PM »

Guys & Gals,

I to am in the process of building 103" Engine.

I have started with an 03 SE CVO 103" Engine. The heads are the stock 103" Heads for that year, Short Block Charlies in Phoeinx (has posted on the site) has reowrked the heads Full Porting, high velocity ports, Proprierty "Twin Swirl" combustion chambers, flow vanes incorporated into the ports to enhance swirl.

Going with the Andrews TW55G Cams, Feuling Pump & Lifters , 6 Speed Baker DDS, Rinehart or RB Racing Black Hole 2:1 Exhaust. Remap of the HD Race Tuner. And thats it.

Bike is an 03 Road Glide.

Will know how bike runs when I go to Phoenix during Bike Week in April. Conservatively expecting apprx. minimum of 110 HP and TQ of 115 lb ft.

Can not ride in this wonderful -23 deg C weather we are having this week.

Keep you posted when finished.

geezerglide

larouchedem · « **Reply #45 on:** January 05, 2005, 01:24:45 PM »

kbiforce,

Fyi: the SE 204s have 8 degrees of advance ground it. Surely he doesn't mean to advance them 4 more. Perhaps he means to back them up 4, so they're installed at 4 degrees of advance, rather than the "as ground" 8?
Dave

link=board=CVO_TC;num=1089159769;start=30#41 date=12/31/04 at 18:15:33]Everyone interested in making their 103 run a little better, check out the latest American Rider. In the Tech section with Joe Minton, he says the factory cams are too big and says to run the 204's advanced 4 degrees or use the TW21's. Pretty interesting! Thought I'd pass on the info. Happy New Year and Happy Motoring!!!!![/quote]

kbiforce · « **Reply #46 on:** January 05, 2005, 01:35:01 PM »

Joe did say to use a Crane cam gear that has a 4 degree advance. The idea is to have the intake valve close at 30 degrees of rotation. The spec on the 204 is 34 degrees. The TW21's are at 30 already. He said the sooner the intake closes the sooner the power comes on. We used the 21's on a 95 and the run real good. Joe also said that the 103 will act the same as a 95 but will natually have more power because it's bigger.

larouchedem · « **Reply #47 on:** January 05, 2005, 02:09:47 PM »

kbiforce,

Well, I don't want to sound know it all-ish, but imo, running a cam advanced a total of 12 degrees is absurd. It would cause the intake closing event to occur at 30, alright, but all the other event would also more 4. Since the 204s are already advance 8, the exhaust opening would occur awfull early.
Dave

link=board=CVO_TC;num=1089159769;start=45#46 date=01/05/05 at 13:35:01]Joe did say to use a Crane cam gear that has a 4 degree advance. The idea is to have the intake valve close at 30 degrees of rotation. The spec on the 204 is 34 degrees. The TW21's are at 30 already. He said the sooner the intake closes the sooner the power comes on. We used the 21's on a 95 and the run real good.

STIXXMAN · « **Reply #48 on:** April 06, 2005, 12:58:59 PM »

hi this is stixxman i have a serrk 03 i have rb 2into1 stage one download i have ss570 gear set adj,purods stock flat top pist. htcc heads and mach. intake man ha ha you would not belive how good this combo runs also 6sp true track very nice 9.8 compresion starts right up does not get hot [smiley=biggthumpup.gif]

HUBBARD · « **Reply #49 on:** April 06, 2005, 04:56:48 PM »

Yeah, 'er 'uh, stixxman,

Author Topic: 103 proven hop up (Read 18400 times)