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Author Topic: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary  (Read 7178 times)

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rlundy

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oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« on: June 21, 2020, 01:11:50 AM »

I have an oil leak on my 07 Ultra Classic CVO screamin eagle 110.  I have new inner primary housing with new hardware, main seal, new gasket.  Also new outer primary cover gasket.  New o-rings on drain plugs.  It leaks a good bit when on jiffy stand.  When on my lift straight up, it's not leaking.  Could it be a leak from oil pump, line,etc??
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cdulaney17

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2020, 07:05:00 AM »

Primary derby cover, where you fill the primary?

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cdulaney17

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2020, 07:11:15 AM »

Another thought is... Are you sure it's primary oil and not engine oil?

On a jiffy stands, the engine oil in the pan would slosh to the left and over the engine oil pan gasket.

Check the oil pan gasket too.

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scotman623

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2020, 12:12:32 PM »

Check bottom of primary derby cover first....
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2020, 12:39:01 PM »

Consider the entire system you're describing.  It does leak when leaning to the left on the kickstand, correct?  It does not lift when standing straight up on the lift, is that also correct?

If I read correctly and all other things are the same the only difference is where the fluid is when leaning versus where it's not standing up.  Derby cover gasket or ring.  And then only if you've got enough oil in it to reach that far.

That fluid is thin.  It can leak past the derby cover then drip off down lower and you'll not always notice it at the derby cover.  Plus you should always start any parts-swap troubleshooting with that which is easiest/cheapest first.  Derby cover qualifies there.  If the leak is there but the gasket doesn't fix it make sure the surfaces are flat.
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VANAMAL

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2020, 03:26:05 PM »

You can also take a look at the shifter seal. They were famous for leaking
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OBB

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2020, 05:24:02 PM »

You can also take a look at the shifter seal. They were famous for leaking

I've got that issue going on with the '12 I recently bought. Not looking forward to that repair bill. It's something that's out of my comfort zone to pull everything out of the primary just to get to it.
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2020, 08:20:12 PM »

I've got that issue going on with the '12 I recently bought. Not looking forward to that repair bill. It's something that's out of my comfort zone to pull everything out of the primary just to get to it.


That's not a terrible chore.  Be brave! 

Or...

Canton is about 825 miles from here.  Ride over and we'll do it at my place and drink beer(s)!!
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OBB

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2020, 08:33:55 PM »


That's not a terrible chore.  Be brave! 

Or...

Canton is about 825 miles from here.  Ride over and we'll do it at my place and drink beer(s)!!
If you were closer that would be great as I'd love to learn how to dig that deep into a repair like this. I did see a comp getting changed out at MV a few years ago and that was about enough to convince me that without a proper table lift, I'd rather not do it at home.

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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2020, 11:52:44 PM »

If you were closer that would be great as I'd love to learn how to dig that deep into a repair like this. I did see a comp getting changed out at MV a few years ago and that was about enough to convince me that without a proper table lift, I'd rather not do it at home.

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Well balls !  And I was looking forward to beers  :huepfenlol2: .

You wouldn't be the first that's rode in here for free bike service.  How bad is the seal leaking?
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fastfreddy

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2020, 06:16:21 PM »

  :jack:   free bike service!?!$$!  note to self call don first  :2vrolijk_21:
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OBB

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2020, 07:19:48 PM »


Well balls !  And I was looking forward to beers  :huepfenlol2: .

You wouldn't be the first that's rode in here for free bike service.  How bad is the seal leaking?
More of an annoyance than anything right now. Enough though that it leaves a Nickle size spot on the ground after sitting at work for about 9 hours. I just stopped it off last night since I bought it about a month ago and it took maybe 4-5 oz. Emphasis on maybe.

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OBB

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2020, 07:20:34 PM »

  :jack:   free bike service!?!$$!  note to self call don first  :2vrolijk_21:
Now that's funny stuff right there.

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efrbc1

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2020, 09:03:35 AM »

When you have the seal changed, make sure you use a Cometic seal.  The HD seals are garbage.
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2020, 12:17:54 PM »

  :jack:   free bike service!?!$$!  note to self call don first  :2vrolijk_21:


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OBB

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2020, 05:22:15 PM »

When you have the seal changed, make sure you use a Cometic seal.  The HD seals are garbage.
:2vrolijk_21:
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2020, 07:07:57 PM »

The original seal certainly had issues.  The newer revised seal is part # 11000101.  It seems ok.
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rlundy

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2020, 07:16:09 PM »

Ok, took it to the HD shop today and after 1/2 hour inspection, they told me the oil gasket was missing that goes over the crankshaft.  I said I don't remember putting one on because I installed a new inner primary housing which comes with main bearing and gasket seal.  They said it doesn't come with a gasket seal.  I said I feel silly, but an easy repair for me vs their $420 estimate.  They said I wasn't the first to leave that gasket off.  So I buy the inner primary gasket kit.  I get home and disassemble primary and what do I find, a gasket seal in the inner primary housing.  So one, HD was incorrect.  Two, I may have found the cause of the leak, but not 100% sure.  The pic attached shows the crankshaft and it appears, what I call an inner racer bushing over the crankshaft, has been pushed in about 1/2in or so.  Far back enough to where the gasket doesn't seal the oil from leaking.  If this is the case, how do I correct this??
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2020, 07:43:47 PM »

There is a gasket between the inner primary and the engine case.  I suppose they might describe that as going "over the crankshaft" but that's not what that gasket does.  The picture you're showing also is not the engine crankshaft.  That's the transmission mainshaft.

The part you're looking at is a pressed on race that is the sealing surface for the inner primary seal.  If that race walks it can ruin either the primary seal or the transmission mainshaft seal (depending on which way it moves).

If you believe it's inboard enough to cause a problem you'll have to go ahead and remove the pulley.  You'll then need a special puller that gets inside the race and pulls it off the mainshaft.  Therein may be a problem for you though.  If it's walked inboard there may not be room to get the puller on it.  If that's happened you'll have to take a cutting wheel to the race and CAREFULLY split it without damaging the mainshaft.  Once the race is off the same puller then gets turned around to become a pusher and is used to press the race back where it belongs. 
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rlundy

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2020, 08:01:31 PM »

Thanks for the correction on the tranny mainshaft.  I got this 07 Ultra CVO about a 2-3 months ago.  I've always ridden Yamahas, but finally gave in and got me a Harley.  I like it, especially the Screamin Eagle 110, but not the $$ I'm spending to try and get it right.  I like and am capable of doing some repairs and maintenance myself.  I started off just trying to fix an oil leak.  I damaged the original inner primary housing, so I replaced it with a new one ($400). This is the second $60 primary gasket kit I've had to buy, but won't install kit because I can't definitively determine cause oil leak.  That's why I took it to the HD shop, but they missed it as well.

Now it looks like I got a bigger repair that I'm not sure I wiling to tackle....
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 08:11:27 PM by rlundy »
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rlundy

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2020, 09:28:58 PM »

Found a video on how to pull inner race off main shaft without removing pulley, etc.  But, another $100 for the special Harley walk-in race puller tool.
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2020, 10:28:08 PM »

Found a video on how to pull inner race off main shaft without removing pulley, etc.  But, another $100 for the special Harley walk-in race puller tool.

If the race has walked in you won't be able to get the puller behind it. Or at least probably won't. You'll need the pulley out of the way. If so that will mean both the polar for the race and a large very deep socket for the nut. you need to get everything out of the way just so you can see where the race is to start though.
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rlundy

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2020, 07:26:01 AM »

I saw a video where they take a Dremel tool and cut a slot about .080in deep x .150 across the race.  This slots allows the puller tool to grab and pull from there.  They say in some cases you can heat the race up with a small torch to make it come off easier.  The video I saw he didn't have to heat the race. 
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Springer Dan

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2020, 09:15:22 AM »

Easiest way to do this is to loosen the main shaft nut and tap the shaft toward the primary side. Shouldn't need to remove pulley.


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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2020, 11:54:55 AM »


Easiest way to do this is to loosen the main shaft nut and tap the shaft toward the primary side. Shouldn't need to remove pulley.



In that video the pulley is off for access.  As to whether it could or could not be done in their method with the pulley on you're left with two options in their method.

1) Take 5 minutes (if you have the tools) and take the pulley off to do it normally.

2) Take the exhaust off the bike and the tranny side cover and the tranny top cover (more gaskets and parts in the process) to access the mainshaft nut.  That's a lot more time and more parts.
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2020, 11:58:58 AM »

I saw a video where they take a Dremel tool and cut a slot about .080in deep x .150 across the race.  This slots allows the puller tool to grab and pull from there.  They say in some cases you can heat the race up with a small torch to make it come off easier.  The video I saw he didn't have to heat the race.

That's tedious.  I've done it.  Also torn the back lip off the "horseshoe" part of the puller in the effort.  That same part has failed even with a full bite getting behind the race normally.  It's on there with a decent amount of press. 

When they've walked inboard I've had much better luck either doing the Dremel work at the inside end so the puller can get completely behind it as it would normally or just splitting the race.  However you go after it though just be careful the cutoff wheel doesn't get friendly with the mainshaft.

If you decide to try cutting a new lip somewhere in the race it'll have to be with a Dremel if you leave the pulley on. No room for any bigger tool.  Also, that race is hard.  So plan on being there awhile if all your hitting it with is a little wheel and a Dremel.  That's easily a 2.5 to 3 beer job.

If you consider using a little heat to expand the race you're right back to having to take the pulley off.  Because there is no way I'd ever do that without then also replacing the big and the small seal behind your work area.
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Springer Dan

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2020, 12:21:28 PM »


In that video the pulley is off for access.  As to whether it could or could not be done in their method with the pulley on you're left with two options in their method.

1) Take 5 minutes (if you have the tools) and take the pulley off to do it normally.

2) Take the exhaust off the bike and the tranny side cover and the tranny top cover (more gaskets and parts in the process) to access the mainshaft nut.  That's a lot more time and more parts.

Removing the pulley does nothing as the problem is that the inner race is too close to the main drive gear out put shaft. Plus more special tools required to remove the pulley. The video has the pulley removed cause there just showing on a trans that has been removed. Only extra parts to access the shaft nut are a few gaskets. Time will be spent either way. Question of grinding or removing a few parts.
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2020, 01:33:14 PM »

Removing the pulley does nothing as the problem is that the inner race is too close to the main drive gear out put shaft. Plus more special tools required to remove the pulley. The video has the pulley removed cause there just showing on a trans that has been removed. Only extra parts to access the shaft nut are a few gaskets. Time will be spent either way. Question of grinding or removing a few parts.

We said the same thing.  Only extra parts are a few relatively inexpensive gaskets.  But (if you've got the tools) it's a hell of a lot less time and work to take five minutes to yank the pulley and have good access versus pulling the exhaust and tranny side and top covers. 

I'd try the option of adding a notch mid-course on the race to get the puller in before I'd do all that extra work; every time.  If one is unsure of his skills with a cutoff wheel (even a little one on a Dremel) then, sure, do all the extra work.  Unlike the representation in the video, however, it's not presumptive that one will gouge a mainshaft. I never have and it's a task I've dealt with a few times.  But I'm careful with my work while still not being inclined to tear a bunch of stuff off the other side of the bike unnecessarily.

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rlundy

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2020, 02:17:52 PM »

Thanks for the input fellas.  I'm going with the grinding slot in race and use HD puller tool kit. 
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J.D.

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2020, 02:43:38 PM »

Haven't seen this variant of this tool yet.  I'm liking that a lot  :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2020, 02:51:57 PM »


Thanks for the input fellas.  I'm going with the grinding slot in race and use HD puller tool kit. 



Interesting twist on the standard horseshoe type pullers.  One more thing to consider though.  I looked at the manufacturer's website for that tool and it is as shown in the video.  By that I mean it's a puller only.  How about getting the race back on?

The other versions of the tool for that task are a (commonly) a combination puller and pusher.  The rest you need to push the race back on are part of the tool.  That's a long shaft so some of the common race/bearing drivers won't play well there. 
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J.D.

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2020, 02:56:02 PM »

Got me wondering... wondering if you could put a slit in both halves of the race and remove it with a typical bearing splitter?

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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2020, 03:01:32 PM »


Got me wondering... wondering if you could put a slit in both halves of the race and remove it with a typical bearing splitter?



Just a guess; but I doubt it.  Those are pretty blunt.  They need a good sized bite and I'm not sure that could be created in the race.  They'd be way too big to do with the pulley in place too.  Probably have better luck just splitting the race with a cut off wheel.  Still have to get the new race back on also.

The installation is helped by getting the new race nice and warm before beginning the installation.  Still working over a long shaft for workspace though.
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J.D.

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2020, 03:23:58 PM »

Yes I have the remover/installation tool (works like a charm for races that haven't moved).  Never had to try to remove one that's walked yet, and hopefully never have to either.
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J.D.

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2020, 03:42:08 PM »

Last crazy idea (thinking out loud so to speak)...

Would it be possible to machine a ring with an ID of the race OD, TIG weld a couple places (without enough heat to fubar the whole enchilada), then use this as the lip to pull?  Might be more work than just grinding the race off though.
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2020, 04:50:58 PM »

Yes I have the remover/installation tool (works like a charm for races that haven't moved).  Never had to try to remove one that's walked yet, and hopefully never have to either.


It's really not that bad.  You see the damn thing has walked, you say a bad word or several, then you grab the cut off wheel and make a little room to put the tool on.  I've never tried to do it with the pulley on but if you've got the big-assed socket you don't have to.  Single most important thing is watch close and don't work aggressively so you keep the wheel off the shaft.

I've done it both ways.  Make a place to put the puller or notch it long-ways and split it.  Don't remember why I did it that way one time, something goofy going on.  Oddball problems lead you to different solutions.  Even there just cut it to a point it was very thin, bit  of a V notch on the top and then some side-load thwack with a cold chisel.  Damn thing split with a very satisfying "riiiiing."
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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2020, 04:53:39 PM »

Last crazy idea (thinking out loud so to speak)...

Would it be possible to machine a ring with an ID of the race OD, TIG weld a couple places (without enough heat to fubar the whole enchilada), then use this as the lip to pull?  Might be more work than just grinding the race off though.


No reason you couldn't.  Sounds like more work though.  And you've still got to get the new one back on.

On the older bikes (pre-6 speed) I never put the race back on though.  Use the Baker bearing instead.  It's a different bearing than stock that is the same OD as the original bearing and the same ID as the race.  Install it in the primary and just slide it on and off.  Don't know of a comparable option for the 6 speed bikes though.
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J.D.

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2020, 05:47:01 PM »

Yes saw the Baker bearing and seal which looks to be a great option as long as the shaft isn't marked, and certainly eliminates any tools associated with reinstalling the race (and future race walking concerns).

Interesting discussion.
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2020, 06:40:12 PM »

Yes saw the Baker bearing and seal which looks to be a great option as long as the shaft isn't marked, and certainly eliminates any tools associated with reinstalling the race (and future race walking concerns).

Interesting discussion.


As much as I like that Baker bearing (have it in both of my bikes now and have installed it in quite a few others) there is a potential downside.  It's a downside that's easily mitigated though.

If you ever have an inner primary seal leak out on the road it's almost a sure bet no Harley dealer will stock the seal.  The seal has a smaller ID compared to stock just like the bearing does.  Seals are cheap though so I've got a well padded spare stored in the bottom of a saddlebag on both bikes along with the other spare parts and tools that are down there hiding from daylight.
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J.D.

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2020, 08:41:58 PM »

True, but I've yet to see that seal fail catastrophically.
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rlundy

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2020, 10:51:43 PM »

Twolanerider  Yeah, I ordered the inner race installation tool as well.  Another $45.  The puller / installation kits were like $200 to $250.  I got about $145 in the puller and installer tools I ordered. 
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2020, 10:56:06 PM »

Twolanerider  Yeah, I ordered the inner race installation tool as well.  Another $45.  The puller / installation kits were like $200 to $250.  I got about $145 in the puller and installer tools I ordered.

Cool.  Good catch.  Will be curious how your new mousetrap work.  Be sure and share a little as you go :2vrolijk_21: .
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trippy

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2020, 05:47:17 AM »

Had the Baker one piece bearing and seal in my 07 CVO road king for 4 years now, was fine untill last spring then started to leak, changed the seal twice (checked the shaft for condition and protected the seal from the splines) and still leaks, tried different (and more exspensive ) seals with no effect, so given up now, only get a single drip and only on a long run, so just give the underneath a clean before a ride and again after. Good Luck.
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2020, 04:28:42 PM »

Had the Baker one piece bearing and seal in my 07 CVO road king for 4 years now, was fine untill last spring then started to leak, changed the seal twice (checked the shaft for condition and protected the seal from the splines) and still leaks, tried different (and more exspensive ) seals with no effect, so given up now, only get a single drip and only on a long run, so just give the underneath a clean before a ride and again after. Good Luck.

I've been fortunate and never (yet [knock on wood]) had a problem with one of the Baker kits leaking.  Any excessive runout on the mainshaft or the primary chain a little too tight?
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longlast

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2020, 03:30:20 AM »

 I'm jumping in a bit late here but,....

I'm a bit confused,..I know it doesn't take much for me now a days,...but if I understand the oil is leaking only or more so on the jiffy.
If that's the case there wouldn't be any oil at the inner primary bearing seal.
Is/was there signs of oil had  been running down the the back of the inner primary case from the seal.
Is it primary oil ?
Has the transmission oil level been checked?  The input shifter shaft seal or the transmission  input shaft seal may be the fault of leakage when on the jiffy.
One other thing to check the derby cover where the fastener holes are in the cover if they get over tightened on the back side of the hole it will mushroom ever so slightly but it will be enough to leak. Take a file and run it over the holes to remove any mushrooming of the holes (careful not to over tighten the fasteners or you're back to square one.
It was mentioned the bearing race walking forward possibly causing the transmission seal to leak the race will not touch the the seal. It just doesn't appear to me that it's the race that's at fault.
I'm just puzzled about it leaking more on the jiffy for it to be the inner primary seal as there wouldn't be any oil there.

It's probably to late but if not take paper towel pack it tight up between the primary and the transmission tape some under the derby cover when you remove the toweling then you can tell where its coming from by the oil stain on the towel.

As for removing the race there's no expense required.   Take a grinding wheel carefully and lightly run the wheel back and forth the length of the race in one spot as it grinds more and  more of the race away it will then just crack open like an egg and slide off.
It will bo this because it's under high pressure being that it's been pressed on the shaft, in a sense it's being stretched so as you cut away the metal it will crack open to release the pressure on it.
BTW.it will crack open before you get near the shaft as long as you do it evenly along the full length of the race

Good luck on what ever way you proceed.  Let's know the outcome.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 03:38:53 AM by longlast »
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Twolanerider

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2020, 01:40:05 PM »


I'm a bit confused,..I know it doesn't take much for me now a days,...but if I understand the oil is leaking only or more so on the jiffy.
If that's the case there wouldn't be any oil at the inner primary bearing seal.



Had the same thought Mark.  Just figured if was in far enough to do some of it would be replacing all the seals anyway.  If you're in that deep why not?
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longlast

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2020, 03:05:22 PM »


Had the same thought Mark.  Just figured if was in far enough to do some of it would be replacing all the seals anyway.  If you're in that deep why not?

You're absolutely right once that inner case is removed for the sake of  2.50  put a new one in

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J.D.

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2020, 03:07:53 PM »

Yes definitely when you remove the primary it's good practice to replace all shaft seals (including shifter shaft), especially if they are older.  On my '02 the seal designs have all been updated.
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TN

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2020, 08:20:33 PM »

My current project, new install only 15k miles ago.  :confused5:

Took me longer to clean up the gunk than it did to disassemble to this point. Called it a day and hopefully get back together tomorrow. I kinda ignored the symptoms and thought it was okay a time or three.

At least the labor was free, or was it?


Just Ride!

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Wut the hell was that maneuver

rlundy

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Re: oil leak dripping from bottom of primary
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2020, 09:10:35 PM »

Okay.  It's been about 4 weeks since I finally repaired this leak and she is still dry.  It was not from the primary.  What I eventually found out was the inner race on the main shaft walked in towards tranny and destroyed the seal going into the tranny housing.  I actually wound up replacing two inner race bearings before I discovered seal was destroyed.  I learned a lot about my Harley and purchased a few Harley tools (inner race tool remover/installer and 2-1/4in deep wall socket to remove main shaft sprocket.  I also learned that it's worth your time and investment to repair your own Harley.  I like the guys at the HD dealerships, but I do not trust their service departments.

Next, I would like to go through my Screamin Eagle 110 and give it a thorough tune up, but after our motorcycle camping trip first week of October to Bryson City, TN. 
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