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CVO Technical => Intake/Exhaust/ECM => Topic started by: lobe50 on January 12, 2009, 06:30:18 PM
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Hi
We just purchased a 09 CVO (110) Softail Springer (Cobalt Blue). Just added V&H Big Radius exhaust,. Have not driven it due to SNOW.
?? is Anyone running the FuelPak on their bike?? Looking for feedback....
Confused as what to get, we will not be doing any further engine mods....
As you may know the 09's come w/ the Heavy Breather AC.....
Thanx
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Fro what I have seen of the fuel pak I would look somewhere else for a tuner. Doc
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Any suggestions????
Like I said we are going to stick to just the pipe swap on this bike for once ;)
Thats why someone mentioned the FuelPak was sufficient??????
I know they had a bad Rap a couple yrs back, but supposedly have improved/corrected ???
THANX
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I am not 100% sure but I heard that the fuel pak is only good for over 4000 RPMs and does nothing for the closed loop as far as fuel goes but I could be all wrong, only going by what I have seen and read. Doc
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Hi
We just purchased a 09 CVO (110) Softail Springer (Cobalt Blue). Just added V&H Big Radius exhaust,. Have not driven it due to SNOW.
?? is Anyone running the FuelPak on their bike?? Looking for feedback....
Confused as what to get, we will not be doing any further engine mods....
As you may know the 09's come w/ the Heavy Breather AC.....
Thanx
Good afternoon lobe50
:welcome_005: on the CVO website :2vrolijk_21:
It would be nice for the other members if you present you in the thread "New Member Introduction"
with a pic of your bike ;)
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?board=30.0 (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?board=30.0)
Best regards
:vrolijk_26: Jacques
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I used the fuel pak on a '96 inch engine on a street glide and it did fine for what i was trying to accomplish, which was change pipes, let it breathe, up the mileage and COOL IT DOWN!!!! It was on an '08 so it ran really hot stock. I put on a big sucker, VH true dual head pipes, rush mufflers, and the fuel pak and it did fine. I had no problems at all with the fuel pak. I have no experience with it on the 110's.
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This is what I was told by the service mgr at my local HD shop. They did my work when I put on new pipes and a big breather. The Fuel tuner is not the answer. The Screaming Eagle Race Tuner adjust the Fuel and the timing through your ECM. A Power Command can do almost the same thing. However if you ever do any other modifications you will need to get the Race Tuner then. This installed and Dino tested will help you prevent headaches later.
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Real quick, the Fuel Pak is for adding fuel only, it only gives you carb type adjustsments. PC or SERT not only lets you add fuel but also take it away where needed. So if you are going to invest the money way go halfway? Just my 2 cents
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Real quick, the Fuel Pak is for adding fuel only, it only gives you carb type adjustsments. PC or SERT not only lets you add fuel but also take it away where needed. So if you are going to invest the money way go halfway? Just my 2 cents
But on carb bikes, you also were able to manually adjust the timing, and with some ignitions, program your own curve. With FI, you need access to the ECM for that, besides AFR adjustment. Those fuel only adjustment devices on a FI bike are mostly useless if you're looking for a correct tune IMO. ;)
Hoist! 8)
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Ya that too, I was in hurry to get to my steak last night and spaced off complete answer, your the man Hoist. ;D
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Look at it this way, for the small difference in cost between the Fuel Pak and a real tuning device like a PC, it makes no sense to invest in the Fuel Pak. As one of those folks who said "I don't intend any mods, so all I need is a cheap DFO", I can relate to you that while it worked "OK", the PCIII I installed a year later worked much better and gives me the latitude for future tuning without further investment in hardware. Save the price of the Fuel Pak and just get a real tuning device.
Jerry
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I would really like to know if the fuel-pak does anything in the closed loop mode? Thanks Doc
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You may call Vance and Hines tech support. I understand they're very helpful.
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Copied from V&H web site:
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EMISSIONS NOTICE
The California Air Resources Board requires certain emissions-related aftermarket parts to be evaluated and to receive an A.R.B. Executive Order to be legal for sale on motorcycles used on public highways.
Fuelpak EX has been granted an A.R.B. Executive Order (No. D-632-1) permitting its use on the following Harley-Davidson models;
part no. applications
61001G 2007-08 Softail with smaller than 200mm rear tire
61003G 2007 Touring
61005G 2007-08 Dyna, 2007-08 VRSC
61007G 2007-08 Sportster, 2007-08 Softail with 200mm rear tire
61009G 2008 Touring
61011G 2008 Softail Rocker
Fuelpak EX settings are limited to 2007-08 Harley-Davidson models used in conjunction with exhaust systems and engine parts that qualify as replacement parts or have received an A.R.B. Executive Order only. Please refer to Fuelpak EX setting charts available on the DOWNLOADS page as a guide to determine what combinations of motorcycle and aftermarket parts are permissible for use with Fuelpak EX.
Fuelapk EX works in conjunction with your motorcycle’s factory oxygen sensors and provides improved fuel delivery at higher RPM and throttle openings.
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Jerry
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Well it looks like that article answered my question, Jerry. It do not do anything under 4000 rpms in closed loop. Thanks Doc
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Well it looks like that article answered my question, Jerry. It do not do anything under 4000 rpms in closed loop. Thanks Doc
Doc, that is the street legal version I posted about. Supposedly there is a non-street legal version (part number 61009 for the '08/'09 Touring), and so far I haven't found any official information on how that one works with the O2 sensor system. I know the "illegal" version of the PC uses O2 sensor eliminators, but I haven't come across any specifics on the "illegal" version of the Fuel Pak. Still looking.
I still say at a MSRP of $280 for the Fuel Pak you are better off with a PC for about the same money.
Jerry
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Jerry I agree with you with the cost vs funtion of the PC 5 but as of yet there are no canned maps for the PC5 for the 110" 09 CVO Touring bikes. Doc
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Well then your in the same boat with the Fuel Pak, it has no maps and is totally stabbing in the dark right from the start. Sorry I really hate those things, without being able to adjust ing timing or take away fuel the really are a joke played on unsuspecting bike owners who fall for there add hype.
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A fuel pak will run you about $250, so throw in another $250, call up member Doc 1 and get a discount on a tts mastertune. The mastertune is all you will ever need to tune your bike no matter what you do.
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A fuel pak will run you about $250, so throw in another $250, call up member Doc 1 and get a discount on a tts mastertune. The mastertune is all you will ever need to tune your bike no matter what you do.
I have been in touch with Doc1 and will get him to tune my bike when funds allow, he does not live far from me and has agreed to tune it for me. Doc
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fuel pack is im my opinion one of the best options because it will NOT affect your warranty at all. SERT will affect the warranty somehow and if you do have a problem the warranty issue will always come into question. It is not a dealer decision but the parent company that pays the dealer for warranty work. Of all the plug in applications the V&H fuel pack is the best.
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fuel pack is im my opinion one of the best options because it will NOT affect your warranty at all. SERT will affect the warranty somehow and if you do have a problem the warranty issue will always come into question. It is not a dealer decision but the parent company that pays the dealer for warranty work. Of all the plug in applications the V&H fuel pack is the best.
It'll affect your w.....ty the same way ANY OTHER MOD Will if they know about it, and choose to make an issue. This is a moving target and there's no consistency among the dealers. It's up to them. Cause if the MoCo knows you have a fuel pack, you're in just as deep chit as using a SERT, or anything else! Then there's the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act which says they can't do that if your mod didn't cause the failure. I choose to ignore them all!!! STF!!! STD!!! STW!!! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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I have been told that if you remove the V&H Fuel Pak it leaves no footprints for the DT to pick up to void your warranty. Just what I have heard. Like it was never on the bike. The Fuel Pak has been on my lists of study ,but I have had no one with a 110" 09 ever say they even work to lower temps. Thanks Doc
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I have been told that if you remove the V&H Fuel Pak it leaves no footprints for the DT to pick up to void your warranty. Just what I have heard. Like it was never on the bike. The Fuel Pak has been on my lists of study ,but I have had no one with a 110" 09 ever say they even work to lower temps. Thanks Doc
If you're trying to "fool" them about any mods done, bear in mind that YOUR BIKE WILL NOT RUN PROPERLY WHEN YOU REMOVE THIS DEVICE IF IT NEEDS THIS EXTRA FUEL TO RUN PROPERLY TO BEGIN WITH. Depending on the level of mods, you're possibly risking damaging your engine by removing it!!! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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fuel pack is im my opinion one of the best options because it will NOT affect your warranty at all. SERT will affect the warranty somehow and if you do have a problem the warranty issue will always come into question. It is not a dealer decision but the parent company that pays the dealer for warranty work. Of all the plug in applications the V&H fuel pack is the best.
Yes you can remove it, but you'd have to remove the mods before you bring the bike in to the dealer. They will definetely bitch about making the bike even leaner that it was from the factory.
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Two dealers near me both state that just changing to slip ons will not void my warranty, I also mentioned about the recores 2.25" baffles only to be told that the warranty on the mufflers was gone. But slip ons alone with no other mods they sell all the time and will back the warranty. Also was told not to remove the cats. My plan only was to add the full sac 2.25 baffles and replace the headers with non cat headers 09 stock non CVO. I just want something to add some fuel to cool the engine a lot and increase the throttle response. The fuel pak just seemed like a good opion for just doing this. Have not found anything saying that the fuel pak will do anything in the closed loop mode were I do all my cruiseing. Doc
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Doc, I ran a FP briefly on my 07 SEUC, It did absolutely nothing below 4000 rpms, I was able to lower operating temperature 20 deg or so with the addition of a set of IED's from www.nightrider.com they also increased low speed drivability, I sold the FP on Ebay and was happy with the IEDs until I swapped for my SERG, Nightrider is working on a system for the 09's should be available in the near future. I keep my bike stock with the exception of exhaust, and 98% of my driving is below 4000 rpms the 14.0 afr in closed loop was fine.
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I live in Toronto and we have 4 dealers here and several around here. I talked to the service managers at 3 of the 4 Toronto dealers for opinions. They ALL said the same thing without variance. The V&H Fuel Pack does not affect the warranty as they can just unplug it and make the warranty claim to H-D. They also ALL told me the SERT will cause warranty issues without question and this leaves the decision for repair to the parent company, and option I find crappy. All dealers told me the same thing, change pipes, headers, cams (they do not affect warranty and only cost a few hundred dollars), air cleaner, Fuel Pack and run the bike without thinking too hard. Changing the cams is probablly the best bang for the buck as the cams that come with the bike are too EPA freindly and lack the performance we all seek. These mods will not change the reliability of your bike and will increase everything from HP to torque significantly. Also, the SERT requires tuning much more frequently and dyno tunes every season to keep the bike running as it should. I don't know about you fellas, but I think we are almost all on the same page, it's a toy or distraction, keep it simple stupid works for me.
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Not sure why you would say that you need to tune your bike each season as that is not true unless your changing modifications each season. You should be able to properly tune the bike one time and leave it alone provided you do not add new parts that causes changes. If someone is telling you that you need to re-tune the SERT each season then stay far far away from them as they have no idea how to tune a bike properly.
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Not sure why you would say that you need to tune your bike each season as that is not true unless your changing modifications each season. You should be able to properly tune the bike one time and leave it alone provided you do not add new parts that causes changes. If someone is telling you that you need to re-tune the SERT each season then stay far far away from them as they have no idea how to tune a bike properly.
Thank you Steve! I was gonna say the same thing. Retune every year? The things we hear outta dealers mouths! Sheesh!!! STD!!! :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: ;)
Hoist! 8)
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I live in Toronto and we have 4 dealers here and several around here. I talked to the service managers at 3 of the 4 Toronto dealers for opinions. They ALL said the same thing without variance. The V&H Fuel Pack does not affect the warranty as they can just unplug it and make the warranty claim to H-D. They also ALL told me the SERT will cause warranty issues without question and this leaves the decision for repair to the parent company, and option I find crappy. All dealers told me the same thing, change pipes, headers, cams (they do not affect warranty and only cost a few hundred dollars), air cleaner, Fuel Pack and run the bike without thinking too hard. Changing the cams is probablly the best bang for the buck as the cams that come with the bike are too EPA freindly and lack the performance we all seek. These mods will not change the reliability of your bike and will increase everything from HP to torque significantly. Also, the SERT requires tuning much more frequently and dyno tunes every season to keep the bike running as it should. I don't know about you fellas, but I think we are almost all on the same page, it's a toy or distraction, keep it simple stupid works for me.
I'm not sure if there's a different warranty for the international bikes, but in the U.S., any modifications to the engine/exhaust system beyond stock, technically voids the warranty. However, that being said, like Howie stated earlier, the burden is on the dealership/MoCo to prove that the modification caused the failure.
:devil:
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Two dealers near me both state that just changing to slip ons will not void my warranty, I also mentioned about the recores 2.25" baffles only to be told that the warranty on the mufflers was gone. But slip ons alone with no other mods they sell all the time and will back the warranty. Also was told not to remove the cats. My plan only was to add the full sac 2.25 baffles and replace the headers with non cat headers 09 stock non CVO. I just want something to add some fuel to cool the engine a lot and increase the throttle response. The fuel pak just seemed like a good opion for just doing this. Have not found anything saying that the fuel pak will do anything in the closed loop mode were I do all my cruiseing. Doc
The flaw in your plan is that V&H only provides FuelPak settings for select exhaust options with the vast majority being their own products. What parameters the individual settings control is a closely held factory secret and you would be stuck attempting to tune your bike blindly if your mods did not mirror the ones they provide settings for. You can check their website to see if they have done testing on your particular setup.
Good luck
Gregg
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The flaw in your plan is that V&H only provides FuelPak settings for select exhaust options with the vast majority being their own products. What parameters the individual settings control is a closely held factory secret and you would be stuck attempting to tune your bike blindly if your mods did not mirror the ones they provide settings for. You can check their website to see if they have done testing on your particular setup.
Good luck
Gregg
My understanding is that this add on device only adds fuel. If it wants to add fuel in the Closed Loop Band, the O2 sensors will still maintain the AFR dictaded by the ECM in the Closed Loop mode. To me that means you're doing absolutely NOTHING in the closed loop mode! Am I understanding this correctly? Those NightRider thingies seem to do more than a FuePak, in most people's normal riding RPM range. Get the bike fixed and tuned properly, and STW!!! A good running bike and a smile on your face, beats fighting with these morons all the time, any day of the week! STF!!! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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A couple of things to reply to your replies. Firstly, i might have said it wrong but what i meant is that when you Add a SERT, then dynotune the bike you most likely bring the relability into question because there is a big difference between fine tuning and tuning. Obviously when you do fine tuning you have a harder time keeping the fine tuning fine and thus you need to tune the bike more often. You can not persuade me otherwise because my other bike is finely tuned with tons of MODS and i know from first hand experience what this means in terms of keeping it finely tuned. Secondly. the V&H Fuel pack unplugs, so it won't affect warranty. Changing mufflers, head pipes, cams and air filter does not affect warranty at all so whoever said ANY MODS at all changes the warranty is wrong. Just look at the H-D parts book, and other than chrome it's full of upgrade parts without the double checker flags. I have never seen nor have i ever heard of any warranty issue because someone decided to change their pipes or put in a performance air cleaner; I doubt any of you have either. Looking back at the original question in this thread, the writer wanted to know opinions on the fuel pack. I never said it was the best performing upgrade out there, I simply tried to convey that along with the other things i mentioned, it was the best choice that doesn't affect warranty IMO.
Let the debate continue...........
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It is my understanding that the fuel pak does nothing in closed loop, it will help in open loop some. I may be wrong but how does that help where we do most of our riding? Thanks Doc
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It is my understanding that the fuel pak does nothing in closed loop, it will help in open loop some. I may be wrong but how does that help where we do most of our riding? Thanks Doc
I said the EXACT same thing 2 posts ago, but that's not being addressed. I still don't believe it's a viable option. Valid only to play the "let's keep the w.....ty" game! I'm not keeping my bike running at less than optimum just to fool HD about w.....ty! STF & STW!!! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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Okay, you have convinced me and I thank you for it. I just got off the phone with the H-D parent company and they told me that if the dealer installs the SERT and it is installed correctly it will NOT affect my warranty. That being said; and what you have explained to me about the closed loop/open loop etc.... It is now a no brainer, i am installing the SSERT over the V&H fuel pack. You are the reason I joined this forum, keep up the good work and again, thank you.
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Another option is the TTS MasterTune, it doesn't leave any indication that it's been installed in the ECM (the SERT and SSERT do), that way, if you're on the road and some backwoods dealer denies warranty because they "see" that you have a SERT, you're covered with the TTS MasterTune.... :2vrolijk_21: