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[49445CVO]

Nice SERK for the photo

http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2011/06/from_the_comments_should_weari.html#incart_hbx

[Rio]

Well,  they have been down this road before, but maybe with the Governor change, it will happen this time?  I'm originally from Illinois, no helmet law but they have been trying to institute one for as long as Michigan has been trying to repeal theirs.  I'm used to it, but it would be nice to not wear one on hot days on the back roads?  Have to hook up this summer....11 of us leave for Maine the 17th.

[49445CVO]

You guys thinking of coming in for Bike Time?

http://www.muskegonbiketime.com/

[jcd520]

Just two things here to say about seat belts , helmets and any other govt. imposed laws to keep idiots from hurting themselves

1. It should not be the governments business. I don't want any govt. making laws to protect me from myself.

2.If you can take care of your own medical bills then don't use them if you like. If you can't then don't expect me to pay for your problem for you should you have an accident and have no insurance.

[Fireguy]

Just two things here to say about seat belts , helmets and any other govt. imposed laws to keep idiots from hurting themselves

1. It should not be the governments business. I don't want any govt. making laws to protect me from myself.

2.If you can take care of your own medical bills then don't use them if you like. If you can't then don't expect me to pay for your problem for you should you have an accident and have no insurance.

X2

[Midnight Rider]

Just two things here to say about seat belts , helmets and any other govt. imposed laws to keep idiots from hurting themselves

1. It should not be the governments business. I don't want any govt. making laws to protect me from myself.

2.If you can take care of your own medical bills then don't use them if you like. If you can't then don't expect me to pay for your problem for you should you have an accident and have no insurance.

Therein lies the problem...you will...we all will...either by paying higher insurance premiums for our coverage, or higher hospital bills for them to recover losses....and in most cases, both, and the latter fuels the former. That's a fact of life that is not going to change anytime soon.  Hospitals cannot refuse care, particularly in an emergency, life threatening situation.  They would be constantly battling law suits more than they already are, which also drives health care costs up for each and every one of us who is able, or has the good fortune, to have good health coverage.  Not being critical of your position, but reality is reality. 

[Chains]

Just two things here to say about seat belts , helmets and any other govt. imposed laws to keep idiots from hurting themselves

1. It should not be the governments business. I don't want any govt. making laws to protect me from myself.

2.If you can take care of your own medical bills then don't use them if you like. If you can't then don't expect me to pay for your problem for you should you have an accident and have no insurance.

I think the government is going to help you out on insurance and it will be cheap too.   

[2harleys]

Therein lies the problem...you will...we all will...either by paying higher insurance premiums for our coverage, or higher hospital bills for them to recover losses....and in most cases, both, and the latter fuels the former. That's a fact of life that is not going to change anytime soon.  Hospitals cannot refuse care, particularly in an emergency, life threatening situation.  They would be constantly battling law suits more than they already are, which also drives health care costs up for each and every one of us who is able, or has the good fortune, to have good health coverage.  Not being critical of your position, but reality is reality. 

HMMMM ---  Maybe we could say the same thing about alot of things in life ----  like smoking for example???  Where do you draw the line of big brother telling us what to do??

[Rio]

Personally, as an adult, I think you should have the option.  I think states that have the 21 year old law, plus mandate certain coverage for medical care got it right.  These kids on these crotch rockets are equally as dangerous as the bikes they ride, throw in the idiot driving a car texting or on their cell phone and you have a recipe for disaster.  I think there is a logical way to protect the citizens that contribute to society from this liability and still allow responsible people to have the option or freedom to choose.  Government is F&%#@*-up either way you look at it.  You have a bunch of books with suits making power plays feeding their egos trying to control thinking they have all the answers.   I will end it here!

[grc]

So now it's just the kids on crotch rockets who need safety gear?  Maybe where you live, but around here the vast majority of the deaths and serious injuries seem to involve folks on Harley's. 

Even though riding season got a very late start this year due to the wonderful weather, we have already had several helmetless Harley riders, some sober and some drunk as a skunk, wind up in the morgue.  I can think of many examples over the past year where the medical folks indicated the lack of head protection was a major factor in the death (in other words, survivable crashes otherwise). 

I still like the idea of giving adults the choice, as long as they agree to sign waiver's limiting their and their estate's right to sue, and to post a bond to cover projected medical expenses and loss of income to the family if they need perpetual care.  In other words, if they want to be "free to choose", then as long as the rest of us are "free to choose to not support them", go for it.  All the rhetoric about right to choose is just more shifting of responsibility.  If that right is so dear to someone, they should have the backbone and decency to at least hold the rest of us harmless when the stuff hits the fan.  Real easy to say give me freedom or else, but not always so easy for you or your loved ones to deal with the consequences if your luck abandons you.  And when it comes right down to it, it's luck.  Anyone who thinks they are so good they'll never be in a crash is delusional at best.

BTW, while exercising that right to be unsafe, don't forget to disconnect the airbags in all your 4 wheeled vehicles and cut off the seatbelts, pull the fuses on the stability control and ABS, etc.  Throw away the ground fault interrupters in the household wiring and the railings on the stairs too.  Hate to screw up the macho image.  And who cares if someone else gets injured, as long as you get to exercise your "rights".


Jerry

[Wild Card]

So now it's just the kids on crotch rockets who need safety gear?  Maybe where you live, but around here the vast majority of the deaths and serious injuries seem to involve folks on Harley's. 

Even though riding season got a very late start this year due to the wonderful weather, we have already had several helmetless Harley riders, some sober and some drunk as a skunk, wind up in the morgue.  I can think of many examples over the past year where the medical folks indicated the lack of head protection was a major factor in the death (in other words, survivable crashes otherwise). 

I still like the idea of giving adults the choice, as long as they agree to sign waiver's limiting their and their estate's right to sue, and to post a bond to cover projected medical expenses and loss of income to the family if they need perpetual care.  In other words, if they want to be "free to choose", then as long as the rest of us are "free to choose to not support them", go for it.  All the rhetoric about right to choose is just more shifting of responsibility.  If that right is so dear to someone, they should have the backbone and decency to at least hold the rest of us harmless when the stuff hits the fan.  Real easy to say give me freedom or else, but not always so easy for you or your loved ones to deal with the consequences if your luck abandons you.  And when it comes right down to it, it's luck.  Anyone who thinks they are so good they'll never be in a crash is delusional at best.

BTW, while exercising that right to be unsafe, don't forget to disconnect the airbags in all your 4 wheeled vehicles and cut off the seatbelts, pull the fuses on the stability control and ABS, etc.  Throw away the ground fault interrupters in the household wiring and the railings on the stairs too.  Hate to screw up the macho image.  And who cares if someone else gets injured, as long as you get to exercise your "rights".


Jerry

Haha!  This was such a good response that there's really nothing left to argue.  Thread over!   

[Rio]

Haha!  This was such a good response that there's really nothing left to argue.  Thread over!   

Sounds like you got it all figured out.......it's must be some kind of a conspiracy!! 

[TIF2]

In other words, if they want to be "free to choose", then as long as the rest of us are "free to choose to not support them", go for it. 

Jerry

Wish that would apply to the welfare system.

The real problem is that all the "accepted arguments" for personal safety laws have very little basis in fact. There is no factual data to support the idea that lack of use of personal safety equipment causes any burden to society whatsoever. Insurance rates, hospital costs, taxes - they will all go up no matter whether people use personal safety devices or not. Lack of use of a helmet has never been shown (and I'll go out on a limb here - never will be) to contibute to any of those increases.

To me ... the only real argument rests in the impact to loved ones. Wear (or do not wear) a helmet based on the loss (not monetarily) they will realize based on your decision.

[Wild Card]

Wish that would apply to the welfare system.

The real problem is that all the "accepted arguments" for personal safety laws have very little basis in fact. There is no factual data to support the idea that lack of use of personal safety equipment causes any burden to society whatsoever. Insurance rates, hospital costs, taxes - they will all go up no matter whether people use personal safety devices or not. Lack of use of a helmet has never been shown (and I'll go out on a limb here - never will be) to contibute to any of those increases.

To me ... the only real argument rests in the impact to loved ones. Wear (or do not wear) a helmet based on the loss (not monetarily) they will realize based on your decision.

TIF2 - you might want to read this link with comprehensive studies that have actually looked at the effect of helmets on healthcare costs and insurance.  

http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/helmet_use.html

Of particular interest is the study suggesting that states with helmet laws actually have reduced motorcycle theft.  I found that pretty interesting.  

[TIF2]

Looking at that now. I'll need to actually investigate every reference before I can form an opinion.

One thing is for certain - Section 7 - entitled "How do helmet use laws impact health care costs?" is a very, VERY carefully worded section. I'm still spending time with it but my first glance says it is deceptive at best. The most weight it gives in the section is an NHSTA "report" in 2002, but the reference for that "report" is mysteriously absent (when others are provided readily). Also - it tries to imply that lack of helmet use has a direct impact on whether riders carry insurance, but the points later in the section do not distinguish "helmeted" vs "non-helmeted" riders and the carrying of insurance. It makes a postulation in the first sentence that "Unhelmeted riders have higher health care costs as a result of their crash injuries, and many lack health insurance.". Again ... very deceptive - and since it is not supported - it is intellectually dishonest.

Thank you for the reference ... I find this stuff very interesting as well.  

I suppose my ultimate point is this (my opinion of course) -

Had motorcycles never been invented - present taxes, insurance rates, and health care costs would not be appreciably different than they are. Therefore (I'm considering the previous statement to be true), no matter how it is spun by either side of the helmet law stance - use or lack of use of helmets have made no material change in costs to society.

Wear one ... don't wear one. I don't care either way.