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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: Cowboy2 on July 18, 2011, 11:11:21 PM
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The interest is not because my engine has any problems.. My 110 is running strong, no problems, throttle body noise is quite evident in lower RPMs and the fairing on the 2011 CVO SG channels that noise up to you... 7640 since December, running strong. I have no problems nor have heard of any on the newer 110 c.i. engines here.
Now, since I got the idea to put a 120R motor in an Ultra, I have been keeping an ear to the ground. I have heard one running in a SG, and heard of two, and the Owners are raving about them. One done up has Dynoed about 120 and 120, and everyone is saying only good things about them.
I have a new Big Blue 2011.5 on the water, coming next month, and am thinking about putting the 120R motor in it. I want to run in the 110 to at least the first Service, to check it out for Warranty before I mothball it. Coolest glass topped coffee table base on earth... :bananarock: Anyway, run in, no problems, I can keep it to back up the 120R or sell it if the 120R motor is still strong. Anyone know of any problems or top mileage on any 120R motors running in America? They idea is to have one Hot HD, to put any "Granny Glide" comments right to bed... heh he...
Only good reports here, but they are just 12 months old since the release..... It would be cool to have a two litre Dresser here, and blow off the GoldWing sorts... heh he.... :2vrolijk_21:
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:2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: Been thinking along the same lines myself.
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Thinking of joining the "dragger bagger" set, eh? If you do let us know how it works out. :2vrolijk_21:
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It'd be cool but probably not in my new one. Thinking along the lines of a draggin Road Glide but it'll be after I finish working overseas in a yr or 2. Maybe run the Baker DD7...not sure but I'm reading about it now. :2vrolijk_21:
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I believe the 120SER has only a 90 day warranty on it, correct me if I'm wrong on that. I wouldn't get rid of my 110 just in case.
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From what I've heard the 120R isn't very streetable. You would probably need to re-cam it and re-tune it.
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I own a 120R and have tuned a few of them. For starters there is NO warranty on the motor, It's a race engine. They are streetable enough in a FLH to take a trip without issues. Customer that is doing testing for us just put 3000 miles on it loaded for a week long trip, CA, OR, WA ID and back all with no issues anywhere on the trip. Weather was cold and raining to 100+ temps and rode from sea level to 6000" and snow on the ground. Bike was loaded with everything he needed for a week long trip and camping gear as they camped out each night. Average mileage on the trip was 44 with a high of 47 and a low of 38. He said the 38 was when he was running it hard and playing around a lot. 47 mpg was when cruising on the open highway or climbing the mountain as long as he did not race around, keeping speeds to 55 - 75mph. While were not done yet with testing it's looking good so far.
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Hello Guys,
And yes it is very street able, and three running here have their Owners raving over them... My thinking was to break in my 110 to make sure it is all OK and then keep it as a back up. Here in Oz, you catch a little crap from the Clubs, calling the Ultra a "Granny Glide"... It would be cool to come up alongside and lift the front wheel on a gear change as you leave them.. heh he.. :2vrolijk_21:
Anyway, so far so good, no fairlures or problems. However, only out since July 2010, myself I drive only about 15,000 kms a year, which is about average I think. They have not been out long enough to know how well they last, but if you are not screaming them on a drag strip at 5000 + rpm all the time, I cannot see why they would not be as good as the rest ....
Anyway, no problems here in Oz on late model 110 c.i. or the new 120 R motors so far.
Come on down, the beer is on me... :2vrolijk_21: :drink:
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what about the fly wheels, have they been welded now? so they won't get knocked outta balance :nixweiss:
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Slight hijack. I was thinking about what's involved with truing up the wheels and welding them up but didn't these all used to be bolted together back in the day? I never pulled the lower ends apart on my shovelheads but I thought sure they were bolted together. When I get finished here I wanna take some time and go to bike school. VA should cover it but we'll see. Would be great to enjoy something for either side work or just another hobby. Heck I can paint, do wiring, decent with a welder and have rebuilt enough car engines that I should enjoy wrenchin on bikes. Sorry to drift away on yer thread.
Oh, but I do like my Holden Monaro/GTO. I know there's a Ford/GM hatred thing going on there but hey I've had good luck with my GM's. So far I've visited Freo, Perth and Hobart (thanks to the USN) but family came from Sydney back in the 1850's. G'day mates!
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what about the fly wheels, have they been welded now? so they won't get knocked outta balance :nixweiss:
Not welded, just pressed together like they have been. It's said they change the way they press fit them but I do not know about that one. I took mine apart new as I felt it was the right thing to do. I've checked the crank and it was fine, then plugged and welded it to make sure it's not moving. In the process of fitting it for timken bearing and modifying the case for them. Will reassemble the engine after that with the cam as is but I will be setting the quench area as needed during reassemble. I'm glad I pulled mine apart as there is lots of little things I found that made it worth it for me. I want to put it in and forget it, not work on it afterwards!
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Not welded, just pressed together like they have been. It's said they change the way they press fit them but I do not know about that one. I took mine apart new as I felt it was the right thing to do. I've checked the crank and it was fine, then plugged and welded it to make sure it's not moving. In the process of fitting it for timken bearing and modifying the case for them. Will reassemble the engine after that with the cam as is but I will be setting the quench area as needed during reassemble. I'm glad I pulled mine apart as there is lots of little things I found that made it worth it for me. I want to put it in and forget it, not work on it afterwards!
Steve - would you mind sharing what you found & yr/model .... thanks
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I want to put it in and forget it, not work on it afterwards!
You did the right thing. If you're gonna spend the money for horsepower, you might as well spend a little more as insurance that it's reliable horsepower.
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The several I've been involved with had pistons at "0" deck. Can't get better than that. :o Realize, base gaskets are direction specific. Some are marked..some aren't. :nixweiss:
John
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I would like to know this proceedure for the plug welding and machining for the Timken bearing on the flywheels....
But I would REALLY like to know about a precision balancing, as that would seem to be very important if you are going that far into the lower end...
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Well what I found on mine was pistons at -.001 front and rear at -.003 deck. Cylinders have honing grit left in them. The rocker boxes and heads still had casting flash left on them and all I needed to do was push on it with my finger nail and it snapped off! There was ZERO oil in the top end on any part even the push rods were completely dry. Lifters had a small amount of oil on the OD and the chains had oil on them. Camshafts were dry other than what little had come of the OD of the lifters. When checking the head bolts 7 were torqued the same one was 8 - 10 lbs lighter. The oil pump had oil in it but the cam plate was dry. Once I got to the lower end the cases had way too much silicone on them such that it squeezed out about 1/2" on the inside of the cases. On the cases themselves again more casting flash and sharp edges from machining left behind. The crankshaft was factory marked with .0005" run-out on one side and .0008" on the other. Once we set it up in the jig for checking that is just what we found. So we removed the stock freeze plug type plugs from the crank pin and pressed in solid slugs with a tapped hole, just in case they need to be removed later. Then welded the plugs to the pin and the pin to the counter weight flywheels. The next day set it back in the checking jig and retested run-out, .0005 and .0006" after welding so I am happy with that.
Look the things I found are just not the way I was taught to build a motor but could be OK for some. I'm just going to take my time and clean all the casting flash and sharp edges up first. Them machine the case for the timken bearing setup. Clean everything up and reassemble the way I was taught years ago. I still have to take the heads apart and CC them. I am going to just check everything and adjust as necessary prior to reinstalling them. When I'm done I will know whats there and know I've done my best to make it right, and since everything is brand new it's not all that hard to do it now, instead of later.
The cost you can pickup one of these motors for is cheaper than buying all the parts and then having to rip apart your motor then wait to get the machine work done on your old parts, so I'm not unhappy about buying it. Once finish I still will have my 103 that came in the bike sitting on the shelf so if I decide to sell the bike I can stick it back in and keep the 120 for the new ride.
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Good to see the quality issues are the same..continuity... :huepfenlol2:
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How do the outside dimensions of the 120r compare to the 110 and 96? I assume it will fit any Harley Touring?
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How do the outside dimensions of the 120r compare to the 110 and 96? I assume it will fit any Harley Touring?
Any 2007 and up touring model or dyna....
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Good to see the quality issues are the same..continuity...
;) ;D
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Great work there Steve! It totally sux that you found what you did and it makes me wonder what's inside the rest of the H-D engines. If that's the norm on a racing engine then what is a 110 or 103 like inside? Probably couldn't be worse but that's bad enough. Glad you're going through blueprinting everything. Part of my mind is still in the V-8 thing and for that kinda cash I could build a crazy LS type V-8. But we're talking Harley engines here and I have to seperate my mind. But like you said, it's cheaper to buy one assembled and then go through it again. That's why I want to attend a bike class and become familiar with the inner workings of various engines. An air-cooled V-twin has to be one of the easiest engines to work on but there are still plenty of areas to focus on. Guess my biggest point to be concerned about is keeping the wheels trued while welding and I don't know if you created a jig to hold it in place while welding or if you tig welded in a spot, let it cool and then caught the other side until you walked all the way around the pins.
Kudos for doing a bang up job and doing it the right way!
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No jig for welding but we do use the tig and helium for a welding gas. You've got to be careful when you use helium as it makes the weld very hot very fast but it keeps parts cool as your not there long enough for them to heat up. We only did three ~1/4" long welds on the pin evenly spaced. If it breaks those we are really in trouble as there are NOT supposed to move in the first place.
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Thanks for the heads up on using the helium with your welding job. Ya, if it breaks those welds...you were able to generate much more hp that you anticipated. Really looking forward to reading about the final results on your build. Should be a great mill!
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These seem like a pretty nice deal..
not bad out of the box, and even better with a little work.
But I'm wondering if HD have addressed the problems the 110's have with the quality and stability of the cylinders, and also the head sealing problems ?
Seems lile the 110 cylinders are barely up to the task on a 110... would worry me on something like this with the extra stroke and power.
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Good point. Wonder if O ringing the heads would help or changing to a 5 head stud like the X-wedge. Bigger studs for more clamping force? Are case savers ever used like on a VW?
Service manuals are on order...I need to read about these mills. Oh where's the Matrix plug in when you need it! ;D
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The several I've been involved with had pistons at "0" deck. Can't get better than that. :o Realize, base gaskets are direction specific. Some are marked..some aren't. :nixweiss:
John
same here. the two I had apart were identical. one cyl .005 proud and the other .0 deck height.
put right at 4000 miles on mine last week,one day was a IBA saddle sore 1000. 1000 miles in less than 24 hrs. got 8000+ miles total on mine.so far so good.
I dont treat it any diff than any other motor when it comes to my riding style. long hard miles.
besides the two I tore down and tuned ,i have tuned 7-8 others. exhaust choices varied but they all made good power for what they are. (little low on compression for the SE 266 cams).
best bang for the buck...just stick the crate motor in and run it. we got two just after they were released. tore them down to do head work.and see what was what. after seeing them apart,I would just stick roller rockers in , and a good clutch. then ride on :2vrolijk_21:
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These seem like a pretty nice deal..
not bad out of the box, and even better with a little work.
What is retail on the 120R, and are the 20% discount houses discounting this motor? Might be to early to tell, but sooner or latter someone will try for the discount.. I purchased my Jims 131 from Jenni at a 20% discount.... Didn't save any money in the long run though, motor turned out to be JUNK. (weak crank). It sounds like Harley beefed up the crank on their 120R and hopefully no one will experience crank issues...
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I was told by Tony Nicosia (HD Manager SE), that the 120R is classed as Racing and has No Warranty.
Good idea to keep the 110.
DR :)
I believe the 120SER has only a 90 day warranty on it, correct me if I'm wrong on that. I wouldn't get rid of my 110 just in case.
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I was told by Tony Nicosia (HD SalesManager SE), that the 120R is classed as Racing and has No Warranty.
Good idea to keep the 110.
DR :)
Not that it matters but I fixed Tonys job title for you. You are correct that the warranty ends when you open the box it came in. You can find them out there for around $4200 but with HD's new pricing policy that may change.
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What is retail on the 120R, and are the 20% discount houses discounting this motor? Might be to early to tell, but sooner or latter someone will try for the discount.. I purchased my Jims 131 from Jenni at a 20% discount.... Didn't save any money in the long run though, motor turned out to be JUNK. (weak crank). It sounds like Harley beefed up the crank on their 120R and hopefully no one will experience crank issues...
I bought two from Jenny for 20% off 4376.00 each. unfortunately Jenny isnt doing anything right now. unless it has been in the last few weeks.
here is the blow bye accumulation I drained out of my 120R in a catch can ,after 1011 miles in 16 hrs. only stops were for fuel.
mostly water.
(http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr327/strokerjlk/120R%20pics/catchcan.jpg)
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Hey Steve... can you build me one?
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Hey Steve... can you build me one?
Steve I want one too. Do you have your own shop? would you do a motor for a customer? I like the way you think.
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Steve I want one too. Do you have your own shop? would you do a motor for a customer? I like the way you think.
:nervous:
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Yesterday afternoon I cracked a cold one and started reading this thread.
It got me thinking of how popular this 120R motor is going to become. It really does make a lot of sense from a financial standpoint.
I'm due for a new project. Maybe its time to build a new X Pipe just for the 120R? Run it with the SE 58 TB that most people will use, get a TTS fuel map all dialed in
for guys who want to bolt it in and rip. I'm starting to think this is a really good idea. A 120R with Fullsac X Pipe and TTS fuel management, all plug and play!
I like the sound of that!
Next thing you know I'm on the phone ordering a new 120R with an SE 58mm TB. 5K Poof!
Then I crack another and get to thinking again, why stop there? A new 2012 Vivid Black Street Glide with lace wheels would sure
make nice shop bike to drop the 120R in. I like the sound of that too!
Back on the phone I go. Quadra $ Poof! Due in end of Sept. That will give me time to tear into the 120 and clean things up if needed.
Well, that was an expensive Friday afternoon. Thanks for the inspiration Guys! You too Cole. Can't wait! :orange:
Steve George
Fullsac Performance
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Oh this is gonna be cool. Bookmarked for sure.
Hey George, is there a SERT tune that works well with your Xpipe? As usual, I found out about your products after I bought my ride and had the Rinehart T/D and SERT installed. I reckon I could sell my Rinehart system but the only thing I'm curious about is putting exhaust next to the hydraulic clutch. Maybe the heating problem is just due to the cat installed in the stock system.
Thanks in advance.
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Steve,
A very good idea.
I am a die hard tinkerer,
but street V-tuning a 120r is as realistic as street tuning a Busa, Big risk of a messy passing away. :oops:
I think you will get a lot of business when your done.
Maybe offer both a .mt7 and an .mt8 file?
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Yesterday afternoon I cracked a cold one and started reading this thread.
It got me thinking of how popular this 120R motor is going to become. It really does make a lot of sense from a financial standpoint.
I'm due for a new project. Maybe its time to build a new X Pipe just for the 120R? Run it with the SE 58 TB that most people will use, get a TTS fuel map all dialed in
for guys who want to bolt it in and rip. I'm starting to think this is a really good idea. A 120R with Fullsac X Pipe and TTS fuel management, all plug and play!
I like the sound of that!
Next thing you know I'm on the phone ordering a new 120R with an SE 58mm TB. 5K Poof!
Then I crack another and get to thinking again, why stop there? A new 2012 Vivid Black Street Glide with lace wheels would sure
make nice shop bike to drop the 120R in. I like the sound of that too!
Back on the phone I go. Quadra $ Poof! Due in end of Sept. That will give me time to tear into the 120 and clean things up if needed.
Well, that was an expensive Friday afternoon. Thanks for the inspiration Guys! You too Cole. Can't wait! :orange:
Steve George
Fullsac Performance
Steve
That is great.
But the most important question is, what happened first?
Did you run out of beer before you ran out of money?
If yes, we will get a Fullsac Beer Collection Fund for you here at CVOHarley if it keeps those creative juices flowing.
Your products are great and if the creative process requires more beer, we are here for you.
:2vrolijk_21:
SBB
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Selling my 09 Electra Glide today not only made the 2012 purchase easier, but mandatory. Having less than one Baggger is unacceptable.
Beer inventory is still in the green. The 120R decision was easy too after watching all the interest. MT8 map for sure with that huge cam.
Guys are saying these 120s are well manored even with the big cams. I'm a little skeptical. Going to find out first hand soon enough.
SG
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Guys are saying these 120s are well manored even with the big cams. I'm a little skeptical. Going to find out first hand soon enough.
they really are well mannered. especially with the se 266 cams. they are a little down on compression for the 266 to shine as it could. but 185-190 ccp makes a nice street machine.
should be interesting to see what you come up with.
put a cam in that builds more ccp, or has more overlap than the 266, and they start getting a little less manored,at parking lot speeds.
kinda like a big dumb motor. even though they are labeled a race motor,when you look at the cam profile,and ccp....i think the moco knew all along these were going to see the street more than the track. step up into the hurricane and then the "race" starts to fit.
your gonna love it. :2vrolijk_21:
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If you want one done I'm sure I could get it handled for you guys. I do not do this for a living (build motors) or have a shop doing it. The testing on our project bike should wrap up here over the next few weeks and allow me to release a Mastertune base calibration for the 120R engine. We've got over 7000 test miles on an engine now so we are pretty happy with it. Now the bike owner after seeing what I'm doing to mine wants me to do his next as he loves the way it rides and is worried how his might be inside. So far his has been fine.
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Just got finished with the heads from the 120 and found them to be pretty good, both heads came in at 93.1 cc. The guide and valve clearances was good but did not care for the valve seals they used so we just hand lapped the valves and replaced the seals. I have to cc the piston reliefs properly but a quick measurement on them and all the other measurements bring the motor in at 10.32:1. A little low for the cam but once I get the real cc from the pistons I will know for sure. I will do what it takes to make it a true 10.5:1 before it gets reassembled.
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This topic has come up at a nice time since I'm tossing the idea around...
paul
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I've curious about updates myself. Wonder how Steve Cole and Steve Fullsac are enjoying their sleds now. If I spend another full year over here I think I wanna do one of these but want the crank done up right like Steve Cole did. Should be a blast but I'm might cheat a bit and put 110 labels on there. 8)
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Just got finished with the heads from the 120 and found them to be pretty good, both heads came in at 93.1 cc. The guide and valve clearances was good but did not care for the valve seals they used so we just hand lapped the valves and replaced the seals. I have to cc the piston reliefs properly but a quick measurement on them and all the other measurements bring the motor in at 10.32:1. A little low for the cam but once I get the real cc from the pistons I will know for sure. I will do what it takes to make it a true 10.5:1 before it gets reassembled.
So Steve
have you had a chance to cc the piston's reliefs and if so what did they come out to?
paul
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yeah yeah yeah i think im gonna do it to that 110 still runs strong but is using oil good enough for a spare
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Hey Steve maybe you could come up with a cost esitment and possibbly just have motors done and ready to ship to the customer. I think it would be a better option to buy one from you ready to run (with mods) than to buy from the moco then send to you and have the mods done. I am interested also if you deciede to come up with a package. I like the way you think and if I am spending the money I would gladly pay the extra for the piece of mind. You guys do great work and I love the way the tts map works in my 110. I would be thrilled to have a 120r from you with map! Please keep us informed?
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Insert Quote
Hey Steve maybe you could come up with a cost esitment and possibbly just have motors done and ready to ship to the customer. I think it would be a better option to buy one from you ready to run (with mods) than to buy from the moco then send to you and have the mods done. I am interested also if you deciede to come up with a package. I like the way you think and if I am spending the money I would gladly pay the extra for the piece of mind. You guys do great work and I love the way the tts map works in my 110. I would be thrilled to have a 120r from you with map! Please keep us informed?"
This is an interesting proposal and is a nice business venture for someone skilled enough to do what Steve has done to his 120R (hope Steve conciders doing this). I may be interested in one after tax season. My 110 is running, for the most part, strong but I would rather have one of these engines with a timken / welded / plugged / clean up / etc... so that I can put it in and forget about it. Business 101 - new demand creates new markets niches.
The funny thing is, if Steve decide to offer this service and folks rave about their trouble free / high mileage 120R's, do you think the Moco will begin adding the timken and welded cranks from the factory? One could only wish........
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Just got finished with the heads from the 120 and found them to be pretty good, both heads came in at 93.1 cc. The guide and valve clearances was good but did not care for the valve seals they used so we just hand lapped the valves and replaced the seals. I have to cc the piston reliefs properly but a quick measurement on them and all the other measurements bring the motor in at 10.32:1. A little low for the cam but once I get the real cc from the pistons I will know for sure. I will do what it takes to make it a true 10.5:1 before it gets reassembled.
Steve
buy chance were the pistons to barrel dimensions correct?
Thanks
paul
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I can see about getting a friend of mine to do what you guys are asking. He has worked with me on mine, so I trust him to do it and do it right for you. He is the one that machined my case for the timken. I just do not have enough time already so I cannot do it. Hell, if I had the time it would be in the bike already but it is just sitting over on the side waiting to get put in now. I would have to look up the valve relief info as I'm out of town but I believe they came out to be 2.1 cc per piston. My final adjusted compression ratio is 10.532:1 with the squish at about .030". I do not remember the exact numbers but I believe they were .028" rear and .030" front. As for the cylinder wall stuff I had some issues with what I knew versus what everyone told me. So in the end I just left it alone. The clearance was 0.0025" but depending on who you listen too those numbers changed. Do you check with the piston and cylinder just sitting on the bench or do you torque plate the cylinder and test. Then who's torque plate setup is right? I tried a few different setups with and without plate along with a few different plates. With each change the numbers changed, no plate, with plate and then change plate to another. So in the end I just looked at the range and decided it was good enough for me. I think the only way I would know for sure would be to ruin a good case by cutting the bottom out so I could reach up and measure the cylinder bolted in the cases. Then taking the cylinder out and seeing what it would take to get those same numbers out of the case. Did not have time for that now so just had to say good enough.