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Author Topic: Oil migration  (Read 4674 times)

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Bav

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Oil migration
« on: January 08, 2019, 04:13:31 AM »

Saw this on a forum here in the UK

https://www.facebook.com/groups/566029816933140/permalink/1037490579787059/

Any comments or thoughts?


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grc

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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2019, 08:42:55 AM »


Are you experiencing the problem?  I seem to remember a change being made by Harley for the 2019 models to address this problem, but haven't really seen any feedback as to the efficacy of their "fix".  The change involved the addition of an oil slinger/deflector.  See attachment:

Jerry
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hrdtail78

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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2019, 11:07:08 AM »

I haven't seen that as a problem or the fix.  We could just go backwards and put a seal in the clutch hub nut.
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CJ CYCLE

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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2019, 11:35:55 AM »

Are you experiencing the problem?  I seem to remember a change being made by Harley for the 2019 models to address this problem, but haven't really seen any feedback as to the efficacy of their "fix".  The change involved the addition of an oil slinger/deflector.  See attachment:

Jerry

I wonder if they had to change the length of part #21 in the parts diagram to fit in the case?
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Twolanerider

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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2019, 12:32:05 PM »

I wonder if they had to change the length of part #21 in the parts diagram to fit in the case?

All the other part numbers stayed the same.
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glinkmeyer

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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2019, 09:48:39 AM »

I have a 2019 CVO Ultra and have oil migration, dealer said HD Motor Company allows 8 ounces of migration in a 5000 mile oil change and my answer was there should be no migration as every manual says do not overfill the primary. I had 9 ounces migrate so they let the motor company know and is now documented and they want to see how much migration there is next time. The only fix they have as of now is to vent the primary. I have a friend that has a trike and had so much migration the transmission destroyed itself from lack of oil as it went to the primary.


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grc

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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2019, 02:44:35 PM »

I have a 2019 CVO Ultra and have oil migration, dealer said HD Motor Company allows 8 ounces of migration in a 5000 mile oil change and my answer was there should be no migration as every manual says do not overfill the primary. I had 9 ounces migrate so they let the motor company know and is now documented and they want to see how much migration there is next time. The only fix they have as of now is to vent the primary. I have a friend that has a trike and had so much migration the transmission destroyed itself from lack of oil as it went to the primary.


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I'd call BS, but then I called BS back when they said H-D increased the crank runout tolerance to .012" back in 2007/2008 and then I found out they really did.  It's much easier to change tolerances and "acceptable" limits than actually fix things, and Harley has become very good at "fixing" defects with the stroke of a pen.

If it were mine I'd call BS and call H-D direct to tell them the same thing.  This was not an issue on earlier models, before they started changing things in the trans.  And it's not a pressure problem that needs a vent added.  That was the old story that was going around over a year ago, and the rumor at that time was H-D was going to vent the primary on 2019's.  Note that there is no vent on any of the 2019 models they've built so far.  The only change made for 2019 was the addition of a slinger as I noted in my previous post.

Jerry
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glinkmeyer

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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2019, 04:47:45 PM »

I'd call BS, but then I called BS back when they said H-D increased the crank runout tolerance to .012" back in 2007/2008 and then I found out they really did.  It's much easier to change tolerances and "acceptable" limits than actually fix things, and Harley has become very good at "fixing" defects with the stroke of a pen.

If it were mine I'd call BS and call H-D direct to tell them the same thing.  This was not an issue on earlier models, before they started changing things in the trans.  And it's not a pressure problem that needs a vent added.  That was the old story that was going around over a year ago, and the rumor at that time was H-D was going to vent the primary on 2019's.  Note that there is no vent on any of the 2019 models they've built so far.  The only change made for 2019 was the addition of a slinger as I noted in my previous post.

Jerry
Yes, there are no vents on the 19s unless installed by the dealership, it’s not a pressure problem, it’s a vacuum in the primary sucking oil from the transmission that is vented so if you vent the primary it will stop the migration. Not saying that is the right fix but the only thing that works for now until the motor company fixes the problem the right way.


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Twolanerider

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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2019, 06:30:34 PM »

I'd call BS, but then I called BS back when they said H-D increased the crank runout tolerance to .012" back in 2007/2008 and then I found out they really did.  It's much easier to change tolerances and "acceptable" limits than actually fix things, and Harley has become very good at "fixing" defects with the stroke of a pen.

If it were mine I'd call BS and call H-D direct to tell them the same thing.  This was not an issue on earlier models, before they started changing things in the trans.  And it's not a pressure problem that needs a vent added.  That was the old story that was going around over a year ago, and the rumor at that time was H-D was going to vent the primary on 2019's.  Note that there is no vent on any of the 2019 models they've built so far.  The only change made for 2019 was the addition of a slinger as I noted in my previous post.

Jerry

Just read of this sanctioned and specified leak (again Mother Harley, I'm sorry, "Migration"); factory specified leak in another thread.  In some ways if this is true it's even more mind boggling than things like crank tolerance changes.  With all the surface cohesion of the viscous fluid to the tranny parts you'll never get an accurate loss measure.  If the same loss were to the ground rather than the primary would it still be acceptable?  Other things come to mind as well.  But you just can't effectively iterate stupid; you'd never stop.
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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2019, 07:04:51 PM »

Yes, there are no vents on the 19s unless installed by the dealership, it’s not a pressure problem, it’s a vacuum in the primary sucking oil from the transmission that is vented so if you vent the primary it will stop the migration. Not saying that is the right fix but the only thing that works for now until the motor company fixes the problem the right way.


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Pressure differential (negative pressure versus positive pressure) creating migration has not been a problem in the past, and there was no vent in the primary.  As with the case of sumping, you may rest assured someone at H-D knows exactly what they changed that caused this problem.  If you want someone drilling a hole in your primary as a band-aid, that's up to you.  Good luck, hope you get a satisfactory resolution.

Jerry
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glinkmeyer

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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2019, 05:34:20 AM »

Okay, call it negative pressure in the primary and to the explanation I’ve been told came from a higher amp stator that was added when the Milwaukee 8 came out. The transmission has always been venter so the negative pressure in the primary causes oil to migrate from the transmission to the primary. My friend that rides a 2019 trike destroyed his transmission due to lack of oil because of migration to the primary. Mother Harley answer was to vent the primary, not saying I like that idea but I’d rathe vent the primary rather than lose a transmission on a long trip.


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bigchuck

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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2019, 08:49:37 AM »

Just another form of unwanted migration in the news today.(sorry)
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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2019, 08:59:42 AM »

Okay, call it negative pressure in the primary and to the explanation I’ve been told came from a higher amp stator that was added when the Milwaukee 8 came out.

what higher amp stator?  the stator in 2013 was 29987-06D and 50 amps. the stator for the milwaukee 8 is 29900042A and is 48 amps.
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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2019, 10:31:32 AM »

Okay, call it negative pressure in the primary and to the explanation I’ve been told came from a higher amp stator that was added when the Milwaukee 8 came out. The transmission has always been venter so the negative pressure in the primary causes oil to migrate from the transmission to the primary.

Just because a service writer says it doesn't mean it's a good idea to accept it. Not only is it factually incorrect as the 48 amp systems are just slightly smaller than what came before but even were it acccurate the facts don't line up.  A larger charging system in the same enclosed area would generate more heat not less.  More heat would be more pressure that even on cool down would stay higher longer.  So someone telling us that a larger charging system is causing lower pressure to the point of creating a vacuum it's counterintuitive.
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slinkcvo

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Re: Oil migration
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2019, 11:16:53 AM »

Does anyone have updated information on what the cure for this PIA HD failure is?  Fat clutch push rod, deflector kit, gasket, oil slinger, primary vent kit?  My brand new '19 SGS migrated 10 oz of oil from trans to primary between 1000 and 3,600 miles and then dropped down again to bottom of cross hatch on stick between 4,700 and 5,100 miles.  It has been sitting at the dealer for eight days now due to the MOCO being illogical about this trial and error B.S. of measuring oil, adding and subtracting oil and hoping it stops.  The problem in my situation is I am getting ready to leave on a 5K plus trip to the Midwest  from S. Diego and really can't accept that I will need to continuously monitor the trans oil level on a brand new 30K plus $$$ motorcycle.  Looking for recommendations because there is so much conflicting info about this condition on the internet.  The Svc Mgr thinks putting that wiper gasket over the end of the clutch push rod will remedy. Continuing to ride the bike without a remedy is unacceptable to me.
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