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[tazmun]

I was checking over the latest news on a few stocks, and came across
this little item. Check out the first guys comment after the article!

http://seekingalpha.com/article/317601-harley-davidson-on-the-road-to-profit-growth

[JCZ]

All three of the comments are interesting read.

[muddypaws]

I'm in that getting old group. I keep riding until I can't hold her up.

[Jasray]

Harley is doing great? Right, thats why when you go to the dealer they have more bikes sitting on the floor than ever before.

[charles05663]

I find these key points interesting:


We believe operational changes are key to improving profitability over the long term. Management has made great strides in creating a best-in-class manufacturing process. Its new lower cost structure provides additional flexibility, which allows Harley to adapt production to marketplace demand and outsource processes when it makes competitive sense to do so.


Must somehow relate the previous posts about shipping stuff to China

[Georgehjr]

Glad I bought some shares at $10,  Now I got to deside 'when to sell' 

[Panhead_Jimmy]

"...we remain concerned that a shrinking core consumer..."

"...domestic male demographic is forecast to shrink and then stagnate..."

Hey, I'm right here and you're talking about me shrinking.  HELLO.  Apparently, shrinkage isn't just for cold water swimmers anymore.  And stagnate?  I think your mother dresses you funny, so there!

"As these men move into the 50-59 demographic, we fear they might not be as inclined to replace their bikes as they may have been in the past."

As far as the 50-59 demographic goes, I've "replaced" exactly 10 bikes since I turned 50.  I do agree that at some point...some age...I probably won't.  So what's new.  

[Monolyth]

I am on my 4th Harley at 41, with the last one being my first CVO.  I ride with 40+ other brothers 22-45 so I guess we bucking the trend...

Monolyth

[Jasray]

The article is stating what we already know, the MoCo has lost touch with its core base.  I just don't see how the article assumes that this will benefit the MoCo long-term

[North Georgia Hawg]

I often wonder what the MoCo's "core base" really is, and whether they could continue as a business by courting it... whatever "it" is.

When you're pushing $20,000+ motorcycles - a pure luxury for most - and your top-end CVO bikes are in the low-to-high $30K range, depending on the model - you'd darn better be courting well-off customers, or you won't have a business. But the MoCo seems to treat its customers with what I call "thinly-veiled contempt". They may be making a lot of operational improvements for efficiency's sake... but they don't seem to care much about delighting us customers who pay their bills and can quite easily choose another brand, or simply stop buying their products altogether.

One thing I'll bring up as far as customer satisfaction (or lack thereof...) is the defensibly SCREWY one-off wiring harness on my FLHXSE3. MANY normal wiring connectors simply aren't there (such as a normal Tour Pak harness that will actually reach the Tour Pak, and no 6A/6B connectors inside the fairing), which has made it much more difficult to install fairly run-of-the-mill accessories like the Zumo Road Tech 665 and the NIM. You would think the MoCo would try to make it as EASY as possible for customers to add on accessories EASILY... but they seem to actually DISCOURAGE that. They have a really messed-up attitude, and seem to say "Except FLHXxxx, FLTRxxx..." etc. a lot. Why in the world they didn't just use an Ultra harness on the SESGs, and in fact on ALL of the fairing equipped bikes, is beyond me... it would have been FAR less expensive than designing this one-off screwy-AZZ wiring harness I have, and I would have been far happier. One harness for ALL fairing-equipped bikes = LOWER OPERATIONAL COSTS, MoCo!!!

And that's only one example...   

[WildClyde]

When you're pushing $20,000+ motorcycles - a pure luxury for most - and your top-end CVO bikes are in the low-to-high $30K range, depending on the model - you'd darn better be courting well-off customers, or you won't have a business. But the MoCo seems to treat its customers with what I call "thinly-veiled contempt". They may be making a lot of operational improvements for efficiency's sake... but they don't seem to care much about delighting us customers who pay their bills and can quite easily choose another brand, or simply stop buying their products altogether.

I sent a private e-mail to Ms. Jaime Katz, who wrote the Seeking Alpha puff piece on Harley Davidson quoted in the first entry in this thread. I suggested that she visit this site to gain some perspective on how CVO customers really feel about HD since I doubt that she talked with any actual HD customers in preparing her piece. I'll let you know if she responds.

Clyde

[skreminegul07]

I believe we taxpayers donated hundreds of millions to bail out HDFS in the TARP "pot o gold"

"Harley's financing division has also seen a nice turnaround by carefully providing credit lines to dealers. Harley Davidson Financial Services has recovered quite nicely through the economic cycle and has implemented a number of support resources to ensure that dealers are able to continue to meet the needs of customers across the full credit spectrum. "

[tazmun]

 I've not checked lately on the rates people are paying thru HDFS, any clues?
I heard rumors that it's up there with the rates on credit cards!

[Wild Card]

I've not checked lately on the rates people are paying thru HDFS, any clues?
I heard rumors that it's up there with the rates on credit cards!

My wife (together, we have almost the highest credit score available) had the best rate they offered at the time (Oct of 2010) at 8.9%.  Paid it off a few months afterwards, thankfully.  I couldn't imagine what the average owner is paying!  It really is a credit card. 

[WildClyde]

I've not checked lately on the rates people are paying thru HDFS, any clues?
I heard rumors that it's up there with the rates on credit cards!

9.49% at http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/estimate-payments.html for the highest qualified buyers.

[tazmun]

9.49% at http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Motorcycles/estimate-payments.html for the highest qualified buyers.

And to think I can go to my bank and get a 60 month for under 4%, under 3%
on a car! Can you think what a guy with a middle of the road credit score
would get from HDFS?

[StevesCVO]

And to think I can go to my bank and get a 60 month for under 4%, under 3%
on a car! Can you think what a guy with a middle of the road credit score
would get from HDFS?

I've seen one of the local stores here finance a guy with bad credit who could barely afford the bike at 22.9%. As long as they got him credit and he signed the paper they don't give a sh*t. Once they get their money they don't really care if the guy can't pay and lets the bike go back. Apparently HDFS doesn't care if they get it back either. 

[Fattbaggernknox]

I've not checked lately on the rates people are paying thru HDFS, any clues?
I heard rumors that it's up there with the rates on credit cards!

When I purchased mine HD was at 8.49 & I was only doing 50%. I carried a deal sheet to my local credit union & got it at 3.24%. A lot of this bumped up % is greedy F&I managers as they get paid off the scale from HD credit. I voiced my opinion of Hwy robbery on this issue to my dealer but never intended to use HD credit unless it was competitive rates. I have a friend who bout a CVO & they offered him 13.9 & he too went to his credit union for less that 4%. I have no desire to ride around on a Visa card or pay insane rates!

[RedDevil]

A lot of it depends on how well you know your dealer and they know you.  I've went through HDFS on both of my last two CVOs...when I bought my SEURG in '10 the Credit Union was at 7% for a motorcycle for 60 mos, my dealer gave me their interest rate that HFDS gives them which came to 5.2%.  On my SESG3, which I bought last September, my credit union was 4.7% for 60, my dealer got me 3.9% through HDFS.

[WildClyde]

I promised that I would let you know if Ms Jamie Katz from Morningstar responded to my e-mail to her. Jaime responded and the e-mail thread is below.


Clyde,

Thank you for your feedback. While I'm sorry to hear that the experience you had with Harley was not top notch, I think what Harley has done with its manufacturing process is impressive relative to the past. I understand that not as many bikes are being replaced, and have heard that before, but the growth opportunities still exist for the company abroad, even if they might be slowing here. If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Regards,

Jaime M. Katz, CFA
Equity Analyst
Morningstar, Inc.


Hi Jaime,

I read your report on Harley Davidson with interest. But I fear that you are very out of touch with Harley customers and therefore do not have a realistic view of what is happening with the company. If you take time to monitor the posts at http://www.cvoharley.com you will quickly see that a lot of Harley customers are disgruntled at way the company is being run and with the products being produced. Harley CVO (stands for Custom Vehicle Operations) bikes are the most expensive products Harley makes - often with price tags in the mid 30 thousand dollar range. You will find many customers who would love to purchase another Harley but won’t because they feel that they have been mistreated.

My own experience with a 2007 Harley CVO bike was troublesome. I am the perfect example of a guy that should be purchasing new Harleys every several years but won’t because Harley is still building high-end bikes with quality issues. The fact that Harley refuses to participate in owner forums like cvoharley.com speaks to their head-in-the-sand mentality with customer feedback. I sold my Harley this past Summer and moved on.

What bike do I ride now that I sold my Harley? I ride a BMW. Is it perfect? Almost, and in the situations where I have needed support, BMW has been there for me.

Be well,

Clyde Wildes
 

[SBB]

I promised that I would let you know if Ms Jamie Katz from Morningstar responded to my e-mail to her. Jaime responded and the e-mail thread is below.


Clyde,

Thank you for your feedback. While I'm sorry to hear that the experience you had with Harley was not top notch, I think what Harley has done with its manufacturing process is impressive relative to the past. I understand that not as many bikes are being replaced, and have heard that before, but the growth opportunities still exist for the company abroad, even if they might be slowing here. If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Regards,

Jaime M. Katz, CFA
Equity Analyst
Morningstar, Inc.


Hi Jaime,

I read your report on Harley Davidson with interest. But I fear that you are very out of touch with Harley customers and therefore do not have a realistic view of what is happening with the company. If you take time to monitor the posts at http://www.cvoharley.com you will quickly see that a lot of Harley customers are disgruntled at way the company is being run and with the products being produced. Harley CVO (stands for Custom Vehicle Operations) bikes are the most expensive products Harley makes - often with price tags in the mid 30 thousand dollar range. You will find many customers who would love to purchase another Harley but won’t because they feel that they have been mistreated.

My own experience with a 2007 Harley CVO bike was troublesome. I am the perfect example of a guy that should be purchasing new Harleys every several years but won’t because Harley is still building high-end bikes with quality issues. The fact that Harley refuses to participate in owner forums like cvoharley.com speaks to their head-in-the-sand mentality with customer feedback. I sold my Harley this past Summer and moved on.

What bike do I ride now that I sold my Harley? I ride a BMW. Is it perfect? Almost, and in the situations where I have needed support, BMW has been there for me.

Be well,

Clyde Wildes
 

I b thinkin Clyde just got stroked and then dismissed.
At least that's my take on her response.

 

SBB

[CVOJOE]

9.49% ??!!    Wonder what sort of bonuses the MOCO execs will get for the 'turnaround' on our dimes? Just sayin. 

[Rooster]

Chip you said it right. 

[Eagle Eye]

I b thinkin Clyde just got stroked and then dismissed.
At least that's my take on her response.

 

SBB

X2 

Apparently, she really could care less.  Too bad. 

[dayne66]

It would seem to me that they are out of touch with their customer base and don't care and probably don't even know....for them ignorance must be bliss!

[WildClyde]

I b thinkin Clyde just got stroked and then dismissed.
At least that's my take on her response.

It's hard for me to imagine that a financial analyst doesn't factor in the customer satisfaction for the company being rated by talking with real customers. While sympathetic to my own situation, Jamie is sold on the premise that improved manufacturing process will bring greater customer satisfaction. I guess in a idealized world that might be the case.

Growth opportunities for the company abroad? Europe, anyone??? Australia, anyone???  Oh, maybe China - LOL.

I tried to help her save her job by suggesting that she read cvoharley.com so I have done my part. 

Clyde

[Eqcons]

Growth opportunities for the company abroad? Europe, anyone???

Not here in the UK, Clyde - dealerships are closing because the prices are so stupid that fewer and fewer people will pay them. 

Jim

[charles05663]

Growth opportunities for the company abroad? Europe, anyone??? Australia, anyone???  Oh, maybe China - LOL.

That will save them a fortune not having to ship the P&A stuff and most new products released.