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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: rondolg on June 09, 2021, 11:44:12 AM
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Hi Everyone - brief history. Bike was bought used last Aug with 37K miles on it. I just turned 48k a couple of days ago. After I bought the bike I learned of the sumping issue on the M8s. I've been worried about it but haven't had any issues. I've changed the oil a couple of times and didn't really notice any issues. I finally got around to pulling the CPS after a 2800 mile run to Florida and back to Va. In the picture attached the black mark is how much I pulled the first time. Again I don't believe that it had been pulled in the life of the bike. From the mark to top level is what I got out of it after just a couple hundred miles around town. I did buy the ESP (have had 2 tires replaced so far using it).
Bike has breather and slipons, besides that completely stock.
I'm riding to Knoxville TN and back tomorrow, about 1200 miles round trip. When I get back I'm taking it to the dealer. I'm hoping there isn't any issue getting the new oil pump installed under warranty.
Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ron.
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Good luck on your trip. I had a long talk with my Dealer yesterday. We all know about the sumping issue. My Service manager told me he knows about them and reads about them on the forums. But he has NEVER had one come into the Dealership yet. I have a 2020 and I replaced my oil pump with a fueling oil pump a couple weeks ago for peace of mind.
I am still worried. Please keep us updated.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Quick update. Got the bike to the dealership. The tech did a great job diagnosing, more and more issues he found caused the engine to be almost completely torn down. After going back and forth with ESP, (initially ESP wanted to fix pieces and parts), the tech made a strong case on complete engine. ESP agreed to a complete engine swap. Now the waiting begins.
If anyone knows, will the new engine come with any upgraded/superseded parts installed. Spec. the new oil pump design.
R.
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This is after 49K miles.
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another
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I have a late 2017 CVO Limited 117 M8. Rinehart slip ons cat delete and FP3. 33,000 trouble free miles so far. Does anyone know if the CVO comes with SE Clutch, Compensator and oil pump? Also does it have the plastic lifter cups like the non CVO bikes have?
My 2010 CVO Untra did not resulting in an ESP rebuild.
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Well I got my bike back. Been 6 weeks since they tore into her. ESP covered new crankcase up excluding heads (mine were still good). During this process I elected to put in the torque cam and SE tappets, also the auto tuner.
One interesting thing, last week the bike was completed and mechanic started it up. Ran for about 4 or 5 seconds and stopped. Pulled the cam shaft cover to find the new cam had welded itself into the cam plate. End result, Harley had a batch of cam plates that went out that doesn't have the lubricating hole drilled. Said the bit must have broke on the CNC and some went out before it was caught. Harley covered all the new parts needed to fix it. (Shouldn't have even been a question)
I believe total ESP cost was around $5500.
Time to do the 500 mile break in.
If you have a 17, 18 or 19 with the original oil pump, do yourself a favor next oil change and pull the crankshaft position sensor and measure the amount of oil you get. At least you'll know.
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This is a great thread,, thanks.
Did they upgrade the pump for the 20's?
Also, I'm new to this problem, what are we expecting to find when the sensor is pulled? Small amount, no amount??
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For the Newbies - Its not just the pump. You need the Plate & Seal if you don't already have them (They came out around 19') and version 4 oil pump (which came out around late 19' & 20' models) I could be off on years but not hard to verify, there are plenty of threads on here on this subject. And if memory serves me HD increased the amount of oil allowed in the sump from 3 oz to 6 oz. (Don't quote me I could be off a little on the numbers) Also it should be noted that while these 3 parts together seem to have fixed the issue (Haven't heard of any sumping with these parts installed) excessive engine wear (bad ring seal) overfilling oil & bad or blocked breather system could also contribute to a sumping condition. This problem seems to be a not if... but when scenario, there has been high mileage & low mileage motors that have experienced this condition, especially some of the "stage kits". I don't know if I would call a couple of hundred (for the parts) cheap insurance but when your dealing with $40K plus bikes and not getting stuck on the side of the road in need of a new engine then yes its cheap insurance! Note: use the HD parts not aftermarket, less than half the cost and in some opinions work better.
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Update on my bike. Not good.
Finished my 500 mile break in yesterday. Did my oil change. Drained the oil. Then used a separate container to check how much oil in crankcase. Pulled the sensor and it drops just shy of 2QTS. I felt like I was going to throw up in my garage. Tech bulletin says over 6ozs not good, I just dropped near 52oz.
It was warm yesterday and I did notice the engine getting really hot.
I'm going to go for a short 50 mile ride and drop the sensor again to see how much I get.
Needless to say, I'm going back to the dealership tomorrow with a lot of concerns.
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Just got back from about an 80 mile ride. Checked the oil level when I pulled back in. Just barely on the dip stick. I did let it idle for a couple minutes when I returned. Pulled the sensor and it almost filled the drain pan. So I know its as much if not more than last time, close to 2qts out of crankcase.
Back to the deal it will go. This sucks.
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Just wanted to finish up this thread with and update.
After dropping the bike back off, the mechanic was able to get right on it to figure out what was happening. Result - the O-ring had rolled while pushing in the new oil pump. New O-ring and bike is running great. Rode the bike back home (about 60 miles) and dropped the sensor, NO oil out.
Overall, I can't complain. A bike with 49K and ESP put just shy of a new engine in my bike. All I can say is check your own bike, dealerships are not taking the initiative to pull the sensor to see if a bike is sumping.
Ride safe everyone.
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Wow what a story. Glad you didn't blow the second one up. If you want to learn more about sumping check out some of Kevin Baxter's videos. His shop (Pro Twin Performance) is in Georgia. He is sh*t hot on engines.
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Ultra13 - funny you should mention Mr. Baxter. He and I have recently exchanged emails. Seems like a very straight up guy. I'm sure I will visit him at some point in GA. He does put out some great info on his Youtube channel also.
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I have the same bike with 17000 miles. Just curious does this isssue affect every bike or only certain ones.
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HD is on version 4 oil pump, that in conjunction with a plate and seal that came out after version 3 pump didn't seem to help the sumpping issue should give you an idea. The version 4 pump with the plate & seal seems to have fixed the problem. Your bike and mine (17' also) have version 1 pump, the plate and seal didn't come out until late 19' I believe & version 4 pump I believe was around 20'. Some people never have a problem....and some do. Reasons vary and are debatable. Seemed to be more noticeable on Stage kit bikes....bigger bores with more compression but some bikes are completely stock. Other reasons could be loose piston squirters, bad break-in / poor machining (blow by) and overfilling oil which in conjunction with a poorly designed breather / oil pump system results in poor oil scavenging causing oil to accumulate in the sump causing engine failure. I have around your mileage and have not had a problem but, I run my oil about an 1/8 down on the stick and enlarged my breathers. Also awhile back I noticed that I would smell oil after a hard ride never drip though so I switched to a Red Line 20W-60 and no smell & I change at around 3K. Note: I have the plate, seal & version 4 pump ready on the shelve waiting for me to get around to installing a piston kit & cam. Hope this info helps there is a lot of it on this site.
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I’m guessing I should do the pump plate and seal. What are the newest part numbers. And thanks in advance.
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Take the sump plug out and shorten it, it blocks return oil
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Oil pump Assembly - 62400238 Check build date because I don't remember if they updated the part #. Mine has a build date of 9/22/20
Oil pump assembly, cover - 62400206 I don't remember if the seal came separate, I have the seal (o-ring) loose in the box with the cover
Also you may want to look into the Primary vent cover mod so your Tranny fluid doesn't end up in your primary. This little hose, gasket & instruction kit on wear to drill a hole (for venting the primary to the atmosphere) This 2-cent hose came standard on newer models. They only sell it in a kit for around $45 (Rip-off). Should have been a recall! Also there is a recall on your clutch slave cylinder, check to see if it has been done. Hope this helps.
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Be careful, there are different pump numbers for water VS oil cooled. And shorten the drain back plug
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Newer part numbers include plate assembly.