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[jimp]

http://www.ydr.com/newsfull/ci_5128290

[Fired00d]

Hmmmm. Looks like the MoCo treating their employees like their customers....

......"This time around, following at least two months of negotiations, workers said they felt insulted and belittled by Harley's proposal.".....

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[mtncop73]

[highlight]Points of contention
· 4 percent wage increases contingent upon workers paying more for health care

· Employees hired after Feb. 2 would receive lower pay rates

· Company would contribute less to employee pension plans

· Health care for retirees [/highlight]

I don't blame the workers for being pissed! Pay more for health care to get what amounts to a cost of living increase? And why not pay less to new employees, after all you get what you pay for right?

i get ticked when a company that is making money, (We know they are!! ) tries to jerk around the workers to keep the profits higher. Sometimes we forget that if we take care of the little guys, they will take care of us!!

JMHO

I am not claiming to have intimate knowledge of the specific contract, just taking the article at face value.

NUFF SAID, no more  [smiley=soapbox.gif]

[SPIDERMAN]

I've been with my company for 26 years. In that time, I've been on both sides of the aisle. Went on strike in 85 for 13 weeks. Never did recover 13 weeks of lost wages, but had we not struck, it would have cost me more over time. I'm not familiar with the issues here, so I can't pass judgement. As a union represented employee I would have said there are some things worth going out on strike over.

Now as a management employee I would say that a strike is the last thing management wants. Disruption to schedule continues long after the strike is settled and quality goes out the window for some time as well. Most strikes end up causing even deeper divisions between labor and management than the issues that caused the strike. However, with publicly traded companies, the almight bottom line rules. If the price of the stock falls due to lower profit margins, increased costs and a host of other issues, credit ratings change as well. The cost of borrowing money for capital improvements increases, a company loses it's ability to compete in the marketplace and everyone loses. We all would like to get a bigger slice of the pie. Believe me when I say even as a management employee, my raise last year sucked. My annual eval was full of wonderful words of praise, but the money attached to it did not reflect those words. In addition, our pension mutiplier was slashed by 1/3rd. At the top three tiers of the company however bonuses were handed out like Halloween candy. The only difference between me and the union employees is that I can't go on strike. I take it or leave it. Looking at it from that perspective makes me less supportive of a labor stoppage.

Just my $0.02

B B

[mtncop73]

The last thing I want to say is that a strike solves the issues. I was a union employee when I worked for US Customs. We were prohibited by law from striking. It did not make the union powerless, but definately made negotiations more difficult.

[rubaga]

Not good for those whose bikes are ordered but not produced yet e.g. me.

Spiderman - Very concerned about what you wrote i.e. disruption of quality and long recovery from strike time.

Hope they sort it somehow.

[SilverDawg]

Not good for those whose bikes are ordered but not produced yet e.g. me.

Spiderman - Very concerned about what you wrote i.e. disruption of quality and long recovery from strike time.

Hope they sort it somehow.

I agree 100%.  I know this is a very selfish stance I am taking, but I am now very concerned about the bike I have on order as well.  What will the attitude be if they go on strike, or go back to work with a contract that they really did not like and felt it was a big takeway.  How will the quality be maintained.  I hope the workers would not take it out on the product, but it is one possibility that could happen.

Today's large corporations are always looking at ways to be more efficient and ensure their long term survival.  Pension costs and health care are two of the biggest contingent liabilities these companies face.  The domestic auto mfgs. are in deep do-do on both of these issues.  Down-sizing and out sourcing are also huge among all sizes of companies.  Tasks like call center help, collections, and other more routine tasks can be farmed out to places like India for pennies on the dollar for what it costs here.  I know this first hand and our organization has done it, with somewhat mixed results so far.  

I have also had several increases in what I pay for medical coverage and deductible increases.  I do not like it, but hope it ensures the company can continue to offer coverage for the long term and avoid some of the pitfalls of some companies that have been overwelmed with health care costs.

Spidey, you make some good points.  Our merit raise pool was also challenged this year.  Our best employees got right around what they are proposing to the Harley boys and girls.  However, we are going more to a variable based pay system where you are rewarded for your performance.  So I guess at least we have a chance to make it up.

A strike will be tough on the HD dealers too!  They will sell out of their new bikes, then really go after the used market to keep revenue coming in.  May help those of us with older bikes get a few more bucks on the used market.

I hope they can avert this strike, again, for what are my own selfish reasons, but also for all of the individuals and families that it will make life extremely difficult for while this strike is in progress.

Stay tuned... [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[SPIDERMAN]

Cobaltman,
                Good post. You bring up a very valid point as to the automakers and their issues with entitled benefits. Ford and H-D have always had a very close relationship. Not sure I understand who, what, when and where it all started, but it would not surprise me to know that they share more than one or two folks who sit on both corporate boards. Given that, it's fairly easy to understand why H-D is going after the issues driving Ford to ground.

B B

[RJ749]

As a Teamster 174 member in pause, I will steer clear of this discussion as if it were about politics and religion at the annual family picnic.

Suffice to say, as B B and others point out, one need only look to Detroit to see where the "yellow brick road" can lead.

When unions began in Seattle in the bad old days there is no doubt there was a place for them.  Today I often wonder if they are in it for the betterment of the workers they represent or the union employees.

For everyone's sake I hope it is resolved equitably and quickly.

[rbmntx]

I'm afraid I have to agree with you Jrob.  Unions indeed did serve a very valuable purpose in the beginning but when they started what amounted to running the companies without the long term vision of the ultimate impact of their demands..., well, I guess that's what caused the rift between my dad, a long time construction worker and myself.

A company has got to be profitable over the long haul, plain and simple, otherwise, it will go the way of TWA, American Motors, and many other old line institutions that played an instrumental role in allowing middle America to be the wealthiest people in the world.  But, greed will ultimately destroy what been earned through hard work on both sides.

 [smiley=soapbox.gif]

Now, I'm stepping down off the soap box to let someone else vent....

[RJ749]

Here's a Euro example:  VW unions had taken things to extremes.  Germans, like all of us, like their time off and vacation.

In a recent negotiation which was said to be critical to the survival of VW, negotiators settled on a 35 hour work week, for the same money the workers were currently making.

Not bad you say?  This caused them to work 7 hours more than they had under the previous contract!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's right, 28 Freakin' hours a week with full benefits and 40 hour week pay.  Not a bad job if you can get it.  Of course if it had continued there wouldn't be a work week and they could have been on permanent vacation.  I guess that may be why German automobiles are expensive, at least partly why.  

[mtncop73]

Alot of great insight here in this thread. I would hate to see a company that I love so much cut its own throat by being penny wise and pound foolish. I think everyone deserves a fair wage for a fair days work. The problem is that so many people would work for less than the people currently at Harley, the company looks at ways to cut costs and the easiest is to cut salaries and benefits. Tough situation all around.

[SE-Dave]

As a dues paying member and a past Local Union President I have challenged the Company I work for across the table. First off a Strike is a no win situation for either side. It takes a long time after the strike is over to re-coop what is lost in wages and in employee / employer  relations. The consessions that the Motor Company is seeking is in trend with every other Major Corporation in the USA today and is not going to go away. Hell that is why most of manufacturing in this country has set up shop abroad. Any wage and benifit is looked at as taking away from corporate profits. The shame of it all is that we as consumers of Harley products know first hand the Company is and has been doing Very Very Well over the past 12 years. and also are aware of the profit margin on their clothes and accessories that we all are addicted to. IMHO this is just another sign of the times where Big Buisness is trying to "GUT" the middle class worker for their own financial gain. [smiley=drink.gif] Dave

[FR8TRN]

Well, they don't have much choice now....

http://www.ydr.com/newsfull/ci_5133882

[VaEagle]

That lockout looks like an attempt to prevent theft, vandalism, or disorderly conduct on site by disgruntled employees.
Nice to see the workers will get paid for the day though.

[FR8TRN]

Well, I'm not a union member, never have been and never will be.  I have worked where unions were present and made the decision not to join.  I've seen union members holler and berate women as they passed thru the lines, but not once was I ever as much as given a bad look, and once I started meeting the women to walk them in, neither were they again.  Guess the cowards wouldn't take a chance with someone that would stand up to them.

Anyways, that said, I think the company did the right thing here.  You wanna threaten strike, fine, stay home.  To top it off when they decide to start production, they should rehire and leave the unions on the street.  Anymore unions are out only for the union employees and increasing membership, the last contract at my company the union got the ability to solicit membership, at the cost of the wage increase for the members....what a joke...and the members just went along with it....a bigger joke.  Companies are tired of paying the high price of unions anymore and honestly, I don't blame them.  Wanna stop seeing our jobs move out of the country??  Get rid of the unions and all their requirements, we might find that the companies are a little nicer to the employees than they are with them in place.  Why offer the world to someone that has a union standing up for them, if the union can't get it for them, to bad.  I can't begin to imagine the time and money wasted in daily arbitration with the unions, and it's not just on an ALL member basis, every meeting where a union rep, the member and a company employee are required is just a waste of resources.  I do know there are literally hundreds of these meetings everyday within my company, because Joe Shmoe thinks he was wronged when he was asked to do overtime.....and next week, he'll be complaining because he wasn't asked....petty BS.

When I moved from associate to management the union members were telling me how much I was gonna be screwed......well, I make more than twice their highest pay scale before my bonus, my 401K matching is higher, my benefits are better, and I have more flexibility than they will EVER see as an associate.  The downside, I can be fired at will, not likely if I'm doing my job.....the union allows the unable members to retain employment, and does nothing for the member that excels.

[MJZ]

Having been a member of two unions for many years , then management and finally starting my own company; I see both sides. Don't want to get on a soap box but for those who really believe in socialism (share the wealth, not the risk or the effort), try Russia or Cuba and see what that will get you.
Yes, lately every year I have to adjust our health plan (deductible and benefits) because I have to compete in a free market or cease to exist. I hear the bitching, while I work twice as many hours as other employee and shoulder all of the risk. All while most years the top employees made more than me or the company. Yep, I made that choice but excuse me while I don't take out the Kleenex.

[CVOJOE]

10:02 AM
Feb 1, 2007 — The following statement was released by Harley-Davidson in response to worker's decision to strike::

Harley-Davidson Motor Company expressed disappointment at the union vote yesterday that rejected a proposed new collective bargaining agreement for employees and authorized a strike at its final assembly operations in York, Pa.
A strike at the facility is expected to occur as early as 12:01 a.m. February 2, when the current contract expires. As a result of the pending strike, production of Touring and Softail motorcycles at Harley-Davidson's operations in York has been suspended.

“We are obviously disappointed by the union's decision,” said Fred Gates, General Manager of Harley-Davidson's operations in York. “The proposed contract was structured to help manage future costs that could be detrimental to our business over the long term,” Gates said. “While Harley-Davidson is a strong company today, we don't want to find ourselves in ten years in the same position that the Detroit auto industry is in now.”

The proposed contract provided for a four percent wage increase in each of the three contract years. [highlight]Two percent of the increase was dependent on the union accepting the Company's salaried health care plan or another plan that would save the Company an equal amount of money. [/highlight]

The Company's union employees in York currently [highlight]pay no premium for health insurance coverage and minimal out of pocket costs. [/highlight] The proposal would have doubled the Company's 401(k) contribution match and would have provided a special monthly retirement supplement for certain employees who retire during the contract period. The proposal also would have instituted a second-tier wage and benefit plan for new employees hired after February 2, 2007. For example, under the two-tier structure, new assembly worker hires would have earned $18.25 per hour in the first year of the contract, compared to $20.78 per hour for current assembly workers in the first year of the contract.

Harley-Davidson production employees in York are represented by International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM) Local 175.

Never been Union, but perhaps the time has come for them to start at least sharing in payment of expensive health benefits like the majority of us do. Cutting wages back a bit on new hires is not unusual, but then the MOCO has had another profitable year overall.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[skippy]

Good days work= good pay , benefits are becomeing a thing of the past... Hope they don't go south of the boarder...

[naitram]

my only comment to that is my health care cost for my family went up $100/month this year, i recieved no raise to offset that cost. and co-pays have increased almost every year.

[HogBreath]

Here's my postion on the issue. I've got some VERY close friends on this web site who are PRO-Union. I also have some very close friends on this web site who are against the union. BY Gawd, I'm sticking by my friends!

[jeffj]

My take could the Union picked a worse time to go on Strike?
Burr it will be Cold working outside in those picket lines: Milwaukee, York, Kansas City and where ever else they picket.

In addition this looks like a well planned strike but who it favors right this minute (if there is a favorite) is the MoCo as they need to get their inventories (new scooters) back in line with the demand. Kind of a catch 22 for the union as they have concerns and want things but if the strike plays out similar to the Goodyear 3 month strike that just ended it will actually get inventories in line and the MoCo won't be forcing time off and will not be paying workers during the strike.

Can the union members afford to be out on strike for a long period?
if I remember correctly the Goodyear strike the Union paid it's workers $100 bucks a week but the workers had to man the picket lines (outside) for at least 20 hours a week to earn that $100 bucks. I would guess the average union worker at H-D makes well over $50k a year so that $100 union strike check won't pay to many bills.

I like most don't really have a favorite side but I think the MoCo is A-OK with its union members going out to strike, at this point of the year. To me the Union didn't pick the perfect month to do it and yes I understand there is no perfect month for any strike, I feel for the union members but I don't see them getting a lot of their demands

Good Luck Union members


jeffj

[ultrafxr]

Guys, the days of earning $50k for work that really does not require that much skill level is going away fast.  I remember in the late 60s when RCA had a televesion plant here that closed when they moved production offshore to Taiwan.  Capital and production will go where it is more cost effective, period.  Just look at all the current moco parts and accessories we buy that are made in China.  It would not be giant leap for them to move manufacturing (at York I think it is just assembly) offshore.  Hope they don't do that but unreasonable demands like pay next to nothing for health care just won't cut it anymore.  Look at our big three (and our airlines) and the "legacy" costs they face.  Can't compete.  And don't forget we are paying one helluva premium for these bikes for the moco to earn the profit it does.  And the demographics are not in its favor for this to continue ad infinitum.  My $.02.

[ima29]

I believe some need to do the math. At those wages on a 40 hr. week is about 40k per year. If I'm not mistaken the poverty income level is about 32k/ year for a family of 4 in the US. I agree that concessions should be made for increased health care cost however wage increase or decrease should be relative to middle and especially upper managent. Unions were definitely needed in their birth, management was out of control. I can see both sides, have been on both sides but remain a union/ management employee mainly due to retirement and benefits. I can only state that I am glad I am only  9 months away from retirement and feel for the incomeing class of labor now. It is ironic that we discuss this when all know that soon to come there will be a labor shortage with the retirement of "Baby Boomers" which is already happening in masses. It has only been delayed because of crash in the market a few years back. Corporate needs to take a stance I know but busting the unions will only happen when they agree to house, feed and pay the labor. Have seen this happen and it could happen, look at what has happened in the southwest and west coast. Problem is a vast amount of the labor can not speak english and are not citizens and yes their income is not spent or retained in the states. Is this what we want as avid "Buy American" motorcycle owners. Aloha,

Kelly

[ultrafxr]

I believe some need to do the math. At those wages on a 40 hr. week is about 40k per year. If I'm not mistaken the poverty income level is about 32k/ year for a family of 4 in the US. I agree that concessions should be made for increased health care cost however wage increase or decrease should be relative to middle and especially upper managent. Unions were definitely needed in their birth, management was out of control. I can see both sides, have been on both sides but remain a union/ management employee mainly due to retirement and benefits. I can only state that I am glad I am only  9 months away from retirement and feel for the incomeing class of labor now. It is ironic that we discuss this when all know that soon to come there will be a labor shortage with the retirement of "Baby Boomers" which is already happening in masses. It has only been delayed because of crash in the market a few years back. Corporate needs to take a stance I know but busting the unions will only happen when they agree to house, feed and pay the labor. Have seen this happen and it could happen, look at what has happened in the southwest and west coast. Problem is a vast amount of the labor can not speak english and are not citizens and yes their income is not spent or retained in the states. Is this what we want as avid "Buy American" motorcycle owners. Aloha,

Kelly

I know this is a sensitive issue and appreciate both sides.  Only point I was making is that these assembly jobs do not require extremely high skill levels and pay above average wages.  Current workers at $20.78/hr = $43,222 for full year of 40-hr work weeks. Proposed rate for new hires of $18.25 = $37,960.  This is for first year of contract with increases built in thereafter.  Currently workers pay zero for very generous health benefits and 401(k) contributions.  Here are latest poverty figures from dept of HHS:

2006 HHS Poverty Guidelines
Persons in
Family or Household 48 Contiguous
States and D.C. Alaska Hawaii
1 $ 9,800        $12,250 $11,270
2  13,200          16,500  15,180
3  16,600          20,750  19,090
4  20,000          25,000  23,000
5  23,400          29,250  26,910
6  26,800          33,500  30,820
7  30,200          37,750  34,730
8  33,600          42,000  38,640
For each additional
person, add
3,400                 4,250  3,910

I admit it, I'm spoiled and enjoy all the prosperity I can get and wish only the best for everyone.  Heard on a radio segment recently that even income near the poverty level allows folks to live about like a middle class family lived in the 50s.  Just need to be careful that we don't kill that goose with the golden eggs.  Not making any judgment, just presenting some facts for evaluation.

[Fired00d]

Update - York Daily Record 2/2/07.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Midnight Rider]

I've been on both sides of this issue as well.  That starting wage is probably for a new employee with few, if any, skill sets to bring to the table.  If that beginning job is working on an assembly line doing a repetitive task day in and day out, then that is DAMN good money, by any standards.  Many of the highly skilled craftsmen in this country do not make that kind of wage per hour, at least in my part of the country.

One problem is that these assembly line types of jobs are going away. There must be a relationship between the skill it takes to perform a job and the pay.  Those are compensatory factors in doing a market analysis to set pay ranges for any position/job description.  How much money the company makes, or mid to upper level management pay ranges, has NOTHING to do with how a wage for a particular job SHOULD be set.  The Benefit side of this equation is a part of the employees TOTAL COMPENSATION, and certainly enters into setting an appropriate level of hourly/monthly pay.  When the relationship of skill set/pay rate/benefits get out of a reasonable balance, bad things start to happen over time.  I do NOT agree that the CEO of a company should make 30 million dollars a year, and have a 100 million dollar severance package...that is absurd, and in fact, obscene.  Equally absurd is a factory worker whose job it is to bolt on a piece to an engine or frame,  making 50 or 60 thousand dollars a year.  Could that worker market his/her skill somewhere else for that kind of money?  Absolutely not.  How much money the company is making/not making should have absolutely NOTHING to do with the setting of wages/benefits of their employees.  Should the company treat their employees fairly and equitably...YES.  Should the comapany just continue to pay employees more and more money each year for what would be considered relatively unskilled labor if a comparative analysis was done in the marketplace?  Not necessarily.  Just because "it's always been", does not mean "it's always going to be".  It is dependent on available work force, skill sets available/necessary to perform the job, and the market for those skills. Walk up to 100 people, ask them what they do, and ask them if they think they are paid enough.  At least 80 of them will think they're underpaid.  Throw some more money at them and see how long it makes them happy...not very long at all.  Job satisfaction is NOT tied to how much a person makes.  It is tied to many other factors too complex to go into here.[smiley=soapbox.gif]

[ultrafxr]

I've been on both sides of this issue as well.  That starting wage is probably for a new employee with few, if any, skill sets to bring to the table.  If that beginning job is working on an assembly line doing a repetitive task day in and day out, then that is DAMN good money, by any standards.  Many of the highly skilled craftsmen in this country do not make that kind of wage per hour, at least in my part of the country.

One problem is that these assembly line types of jobs are going away. There must be a relationship between the skill it takes to perform a job and the pay.  Those are compensatory factors in doing a market analysis to set pay ranges for any position/job description.  How much money the company makes, or mid to upper level management pay ranges, has NOTHING to do with how a wage for a particular job SHOULD be set.  The Benefit side of this equation is a part of the employees TOTAL COMPENSATION, and certainly enters into setting an appropriate level of hourly/monthly pay.  When the relationship of skill set/pay rate/benefits get out of a reasonable balance, bad things start to happen over time.  I do NOT agree that the CEO of a company should make 30 million dollars a year, and have a 100 million dollar severance package...that is absurd, and in fact, obscene.  Equally absurd is a factory worker whose job it is to bolt on a piece to an engine or frame,  making 50 or 60 thousand dollars a year.  Could that worker market his/her skill somewhere else for that kind of money?  Absolutely not.  How much money the company is making/not making should have absolutely NOTHING to do with the setting of wages/benefits of their employees.  Should the company treat their employees fairly and equitably...YES.  Should the comapany just continue to pay employees more and more money each year for what would be considered relatively unskilled labor if a comparative analysis was done in the marketplace?  Not necessarily.  Just because "it's always been", does not mean "it's always going to be".  It is dependent on available work force, skill sets available/necessary to perform the job, and the market for those skills. Walk up to 100 people, ask them what they do, and ask them if they think they are paid enough.  At least 80 of them will think they're underpaid.  Throw some more money at them and see how long it makes them happy...not very long at all.  Job satisfaction is NOT tied to how much a person makes.  It is tied to many other factors too complex to go into here.[smiley=soapbox.gif]

Well said Terry, my sentiments exactly crystalized into a coherent statement.  I'm all for everyone making all they can but things must remain in balance.  Again, for comparison, look at what the go along to get along mentaility at the big three automakers have gotten them.  We do NOT want the moco going down that road.

I also agree that some executive compensation packages are utterly obscene and totally indefensible - but not the moco as far as I know.  But even the most egregious example does not ultimately affect the future financial stability of a large company like giving more to the workers than they return in value.  It is the law of large numbers - comparatively little to a very large number will make a huge difference.

[VAZHOG]

Harley on the other hand is doing what every other american corp is doing today to stay in business. CUT COST as best they can. They way do that is Stock the dealers with product- shutdown the plants - and save a LOT of Cash - no unemployment insurance or heathcare or SSI or payroll to payout. That is worth a whole lot of cash per day for HD. ( 11 million)


So the strike is a WIN for HD and a Loser for the employee. HD will still be in business even if they don't make another bike this year or next year in the USA.

[Skippy620]

Reading through the posts on the York Plant strike. In COVJOES post on Feb 1 it states the models effected are Soft Tails and Touring. Is this all Soft Tails and Touring models, or only specific models in each line ?
Thanks  

[Twolanerider]

Reading through the posts on the York Plant strike. In COVJOES post on Feb 1 it states the models effected are Soft Tails and Touring. Is this all Soft Tails and Touring models, or only specific models in each line ?
Thanks  

York builds all the Softails and Touring models.  Dynas and V-Rods in Kansas City.

[Fired00d]

York builds all the Softails and Touring models.  Dynas and V-Rods in Kansas City.

Sportsters also are built in Kansas City.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[ultrafxr]

Yeah, but this could have repurcussions throughout the company if it lasts very long.

[Fired00d]

Yeah, but this could have repurcussions throughout the company if it lasts very long.

It's already anticipated. This was from the update I posted earlier today....

.....Meanwhile at Harley's Tomahawk, Wis., plant, United Steelworkers Union Local 460 President Dan Molley told the Tomahawk Leader Reporter that the York County strike could lead to the layoffs of more than 250 workers as soon as Wednesday. The steelworkers union has a total of 364 members, the newspaper reported.

“We will continue to maintain production but we will have to lay off a big chunk of our members due to that strike,” Molley told the Wisconsin paper.....

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Twolanerider]

Sportsters also are built in Kansas City.

Yeah, but I was only thinking of full grown bikes.....

[Fired00d]

Yeah, but I was only thinking of full grown bikes.....

Hehehehe. When you didn't mention them I had to research and find out. You aroused my curiosity.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[SPIDERMAN]

Life is what you make of it. You can take advantage of situations or you can find reasons not to. Why am I posting this thought on this thread ? Give this strike a month and the 05 you couldn't get a decent price out of last fall will all of the sudden be worth what you wanted for it. My dealer has been dropping hints about how much he can get for LD if this strike lasts longer than his current inventory which is 3 or 4 weeks. Not that I'm interested, but for those of you who've been looking to buy an 07 and have an 06 or older to trade, this strike is your ticket to your new ride if you're willing to wait for delivery until the strike is settled. IMHO

Big B

[TCinVA]

So imagine my dismay when I called my dealer today to confirm the ship date on my B&O CUSE2.  "Still March 2nd?" I asked?  The reply, "Guess you haven't heard.  The York plant workers are out on strike.  We don't know anymore than what we're reading on the Internet".  
So my first reaction is "chit"... then I start thinking about economics, unions, management, all the "stuff" that goes into the business and realize that there's absolutely nothing I can do about the situation so there's no reason to get all purple faced.  My momma always told me that everything happens for a reason.  In my case, maybe March wasn't a good time to get the new ride.  Stuff happens.
Of course I share the concerns of the some of the other folks who've posted here with respect to start-up pains when the strike ends.  That's why you make your decisions, as Howie did, with respect to the warranty.
I'll keep riding Harleys whether I think the MoCo is right or the union.  
Some day, I'll get the SE.  Who knows as VAZHOG suggests, if HD doesn't build another bike the rest of this year or in '08, I guess I'll just have to settle for the 2009 water cooled 124", 7 speed Ultra [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif].
I'm still smilin'
TC

[Hoist!]

So imagine my dismay when I called my dealer today to confirm the ship date on my B&O CUSE2.  "Still March 2nd?" I asked?  The reply, "Guess you haven't heard.  The York plant workers are out on strike.  We don't know anymore than what we're reading on the Internet".  
So my first reaction is "chit"... then I start thinking about economics, unions, management, all the "stuff" that goes into the business and realize that there's absolutely nothing I can do about the situation so there's no reason to get all purple faced.  My momma always told me that everything happens for a reason.  In my case, maybe March wasn't a good time to get the new ride.  Stuff happens.
Of course I share the concerns of the some of the other folks who've posted here with respect to start-up pains when the strike ends.  That's why you make your decisions, as Howie did, with respect to the warranty.
I'll keep riding Harleys whether I think the MoCo is right or the union.  
Some day, I'll get the SE.  Who knows as VAZHOG suggests, if HD doesn't build another bike the rest of this year or in '08, I guess I'll just have to settle for the 2009 water cooled 124", 7 speed Ultra [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif].
I'm still smilin'
TC

Hang in there Tony, hopefully you won't get delayed too long. Easy for me to say now. Can you imagine how I'd be freaking out if this was three weeks ago! You're taking it very well and have a good attitude about it. The SEUC's are pretty much an annual event. But I'm worried this year might be the last for the SERKs. I hope all you SERK guys get your bikes eventually!

[TCinVA]

Hang in there Tony, hopefully you won't get delayed too long. Easy for me to say now. Can you imagine how I'd be freaking out if this was three weeks ago! You're taking it very well and have a good attitude about it. The SEUC's are pretty much an annual event. But I'm worried this year might be the last for the SERKs. I hope all you SERK guys get your bikes eventually!

Thanks, Howie.  I plan to live vicariously through you and your SERK for the next few weeks (?), months(?) ...  Keep us informed so I at least have an idea of what it "feels like" .
Tony

[Hoist!]

Thanks, Howie.  I plan to live vicariously through you and your SERK for the next few weeks (?), months(?) ...  Keep us informed so I at least have an idea of what it "feels like" .
Tony

They have to end it soon Tony. We're going to York in a few months. And I'll be seeing you and your new bike there too!!! Hoist! 8-)

[TCinVA]

They have to end it soon Tony. We're going to York in a few months. And I'll be seeing you and your new bike there too!!! Hoist! 8-)

Howie,
I like the way you think!
Tony

[Twolanerider]

So imagine my dismay when I called my dealer today to confirm the ship date on my B&O CUSE2.  "Still March 2nd?" I asked?  The reply, "Guess you haven't heard.  

Sympathize with you and everyone else who will be waiting.  Sure am glad I like the one I (already) got.

[110tHunDer]

Sympathize with you and everyone else who will be waiting.  Sure am glad I like the one I (already) got.

Yeah.  And, that no mad b@st@rds assembled it. :-/

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Yeah.  And, that no mad b@st@rds assembled it. :-/

Better get them while you can boy's ...from what we are hearing it could go on awhile.

Bubba

[TCinVA]

Yeah.  And, that no mad b@st@rds assembled it. :-/

Now ain't that the truth???
TC

[Twolanerider]

Yeah.  And, that no mad b@st@rds assembled it. :-/

Amen to that brother, amen to that.  Don't want to get one of those first machines back as folks are just getting back in the swing of things, as they're hands are remembering what they're brains haven't quite re-learned yet, and as folks are still taking out a few grudges.  The red bike just looks sweeter and sweeter every day.

[SPIDERMAN]

I'd like to think that the folks at H-D that are going out on strike would find more novel ways of displaying their displeasure with management upon their return than the quality of the product, but the truth is human nature being what it is, the first few weeks of vehicles built after this strike is settled are more than likely going to be clunkers. I suppose that QA will redouble it's efforts to try to catch anyone deliberately producing poor quality, but the line moves on and the push from the top will be to recapture schedule. My advice would be not to buy from any dealer with a poor reputation for processing warranty issues. We've talked about this before, but now would be a good time for folks on the site to post those dealers with a good or bad reputation for warranty. My dealer San Diego H-D has been excellant in the past on processing claims, but as Beagle has pointed out, the execution of the warranty repair can be somewhat lacking depending on the tech assigned to your bike. Beyond that however, is that once again demand is going to exceed supply and the wait for CVO models is only going to get worse. I would imagine that the 08 model year release could be affected as well. All is speculation at this point, but as I pointed out in an earlier post, my gut feeling is that this strike is being driven by managements fear of becoming overburdened with entitlements as have the automakers. If that is the case, management will not back away from their original offer until some serious pain has been inflicted upon the company by the strike. Because of the skill level involved, this is not a situation where replacement workers ( Scabs in union parlance) can be brought in nor is it possible for management to continue building motorcycles by staffing the line with lower and mid level management employees. In my opinion, this strike is going to be ugly. The only saving grace as I stated earlier is that as it lengthens, the value of used vehicles is going to rise as dealers look for product to put on the showroom floor to sell.

B B

[DCFIREMANN]

I have been trying to keep up with this tread. Actually I wasn't going to reply. BUT I just couldn't resist.

Not knowing all of the facts it is hard to take sides in this matter. As a lot of you know I am a very proud UNION FIREFIGHTER. I thank the International Association of Fire Fighters everyday. Yes I get paid a decent salary to RUN into buildings that most others are running out of.  I also have a GREAT WORK SCHEDULE. Just ask "V", she loves it also. This is also a little different matter for me as we have a NO STRIKE CLAUSE. By law we cannot strike and I would not even think about it. I have worked without a contract for 2 years I also worked wiothout a pay raise for SIX years. I also had to give up a step increase all because of Governmental Budget Cuts! Still I come to work everyday and DO NOT BITCH. I know I could somewhere else where it could be worse and worknig a job I may not love.

One of the problems with the Unions is the HIGH PRICE we must pay for our HD's along with a lot of other goods and services. I also know they (HD Employees) can buy a bike AT COST every two years (I think it is ) Then they can sell it and most make a very good profit. A friend of mine who works for the MOCO trades up to a new bike every other year. He has done so well after the first couple he is riding a new HD for FREE!!!!! Now that is a very good benifit I think. I am not sure about the pay scale though . The starting salary for a line worker sounds fair to me.  Even though I work for the Government I still have to pay for health insurance. Yes they ( the Government)pays a precentage but I still have to pay for my benefits. So I think with the cost of health care rising like it is, it is a very big cost cutting measure. I think Harley is looking into the future and looking to survive. The run of bikes has and will continue to slow down. Without the bikes dealers will start to fail ( some of them need too) and they may in fact hurt us in the long run. I also know that the MOCO and Dealers are warehousing new bikes still in the crate. There too many bikes being produced now days. So this strike I don't think is going to hurt The MoCO too much. The economy is still slowing down despite what we are being told. I see it everyday in my part time business.

I guess all we can do is sit back and watch.

Be Safe

THE DAWG  

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

I have been trying to keep up with this tread. Actually I wasn't going to reply. BUT I just couldn't resist.

Not knowing all of the facts ... Without the bikes dealers will start to fail ( some of them need too) and they may in fact hurt us in the long run.
I guess all we can do is sit back and watch.

Be Safe

THE DAWG  

Dawg just curious ...how will it hurt "us" in the long run?

Bubba

[MJZ]

Dawg, I agree in the long run it might hurt the dealer but IMHO, I think for the most part they are over priced T-Shirts shops. Have often pondered where the real profit center is in the dealerships. I walk in and see a 10 million dollar building with 25+ employees year round. That is a pretty big nut to crack but what t-shirt shop has 4 or 5 sales people checking out buyers all day 7 days a week all year long. JMHO but I think the bikes are there just to suck the john in, the real money is derrived from motor clothes and second I'd guess would be the service deparment. Billing out 85 an hour for a 3 hour job while the 10.00 tech spent less than 15 minutes doing it.
Parts and accs. are a different story, for those of us that have been enlightened by good dealers like Chicago and Benjy's have been broke of that scam but I think the vast majority of owners don't know all dealers don't sell at list. So I guess that is number 3 profit center. Yep, I think they could give the bikes away at cost and not really effect the bottom line.
What do you think?

[SBB]

Dawg just curious ...how will it hurt "us" in the long run?

Bubba

Just to help clarify your question,,,,

When you ask "US" do you mean yourself as an individual.
Or do you mean "US" as a dealer, the one you work for?

I to look forward to Dawg's answer!
Go Dawg,, you da man!

 [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[DCFIREMANN]

[highlight]Dawg just curious ...how will it hurt "us" in the long run?[/highlight]
Bubba

If the strike continues and we have no bikes then we will have to worry about SUPPLY and DEMAND!!!!

No bikes and when it gets warm demands goes up and so does the prices!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DCFIREMANN]

Just to help clarify your question,,,,

When you ask "US" do you mean yourself as an individual.
Or do you mean "US" as a dealer, the one you work for?

[highlight]I to look forward to Dawg's answer!
Go Dawg,, you da man![/highlight]
 [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

CHIP I did learn form one of the best!!!!!!

Oh and BTW it will hurt us all, DEALERS and  THE DEDICATED CUSTOMER!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DCFIREMANN]

Dawg, I agree in the long run it might hurt the dealer but IMHO, I think for the most part they are over priced T-Shirts shops. Have often pondered where the real profit center is in the dealerships. I walk in and see a 10 million dollar building with 25+ employees year round. That is a pretty big nut to crack but what t-shirt shop has 4 or 5 sales people checking out buyers all day 7 days a week all year long. JMHO but I think the bikes are there just to suck the john in, the real money is derrived from motor clothes and second I'd guess would be the service deparment. Billing out 85 an hour for a 3 hour job while the 10.00 tech spent less than 15 minutes doing it.
Parts and accs. are a different story, for those of us that have been enlightened by good dealers like Chicago and Benjy's have been broke of that scam but I think the vast majority of owners don't know all dealers don't sell at list. So I guess that is number 3 profit center. Yep,[highlight] I think they could give the bikes away at cost and not really effect the bottom line.
What do you think?

[/highlight]

I actually think you are right. But we all know that the dealers are not going to give away anything.


I really like your post. OVER PRICED TEE SHIRTS SHOPS!!!!! Yep a 10.00 Tee for 25.00 plus!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Just to help clarify your question,,,,

When you ask "US" do you mean yourself as an individual.
Or do you mean "US" as a dealer, the one you work for?

I to look forward to Dawg's answer!
Go Dawg,, you da man!

 [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Chip as usual your right on the ball and I appreciate you wanting to help me "clarify" my question but it was directed at Dawg and not you... when I said us I used quotation marks  I was referring to the "us" Dawg was referring to ...

Bubba

[FR8TRN]

Because of the skill level involved, this is not a situation where replacement workers ( Scabs in union parlance) can be brought in nor is it possible for management to continue building motorcycles by staffing the line with lower and mid level management employees.

I disagree, there isn't alot goin on there that you couldn't train somebody to do in short order.  All the tools to torque bolts are preset and hanging within arms reach, puttin the parts in place is pretty simple.  I've seen the production line many times, and there just isn't much involved in putting one together.  Now the CVO line, thats a different story, mainly because they don't have the automation, it's a frame on a manual rolling platform being moved from station to station along about a 100' production line, with the different parts on shelves along the line where they are required.  The same 2 techs working on the bike from start to finish.  If they were to start producing bikes again without the union workers, the CVO line may just stay defunct for a while.

Right now, I don't think the MoCo is even thinking they need to start production back up.  With the comments from KHD about the dealer show before this even happened, I had a feelin something along this line was coming, just didn't know it would be so soon.  With the inventory sitting in dealerships around here, they probably aren't too worried, and won't be for a while.  And like someone else (and you I think) mentioned, this certainly ain't hurtin our resale any either.  I went by the plant last night, strike efforts are half-hearted at best, they play up for the camera's my son said (he lives near the plant) but when their gone, it's back to standin around talkin and smokin, very little picketing.

[SBB]

CHIP I did learn form one of the best!!!!!!

Oh and BTW it will hurt us all, DEALERS and  THE DEDICATED CUSTOMER!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

This response is directed to the "Dawg"

Thanks Dawg!

As I have said before, but it bears repeating!

You are da man!


 

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

If the strike continues and we have no bikes then we will have to worry about SUPPLY and DEMAND!!!!

No bikes and when it gets warm demands goes up and so does the prices!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

So I suppose if the new bikes stay strong and the demand gets stronger because of a shortage of bikes and they start to bring a premium again that it will not be a benifit to owners of used bikes as their's go up in value .....
Seems to me it would be a win win situation for the dealer and current Harley owners ...but then what do I know?

Dude

[DCFIREMANN]

So I suppose if the new bikes stay strong and the demand gets stronger because of a shortage of bikes and they start to bring a premium again that it will not be a benefit to owners of used bikes as their's go up in value .....
Seems to me it would be a win win situation for the dealer and current Harley owners

...but then what do I know?

Dude

I don't know what the economy is like where you live but here in the DC Metro area it is bad. The once very strong dealers are sitting on 300 plus units. The price can go where ever it wants IF THE PUBLIC DOESN'T HAVE THE FUNDS THEY ARE NOT BUYING!

If the price moves much higher the MOCO will have to cut production. If you the Dealer starts to sit on and pay floor plan on 300 plus units how long will you last. If the Motor Clothes and service slow down and now your cash flow is hurting. What is going to happen to your business. If the price of my bikes go higher and I need to unload one for funds and can't sell it. How is going to affect me?

I am in an area that is supposed to be very strong economy wise. But we are seeing the slow down here.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Fatboy]

 FWIW.........I used to work for a company who is a sub-contractor for the York Plant. An old friend still there was told they have a surplus of about 10,000 bikes they are waiting to ship. Normal production is about 1000 per day so when the strike started they had about a two week supply. Coupled with the high dealer inventories it may be a month or so before the MOCO starts getting seriously concerned. Additionally he mentioned a factory owned by another company right across the street that went out on strike and the company closed it down........hmmm    This could get interesting....

[Hoist!]

I don't know how true this is. I was told on Saturday that they're setting up to build Softails on KC for the strike and that there's a 3 month backlog of Touring bikes. If that's the case, it sounds like HD is playing hardball on this one. Could be a long strike from what I'm hearing! Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

I don't know how true this is. I was told on Saturday that they're setting up to build Softails on KC for the strike and that there's a 3 month backlog of Touring bikes. If that's the case, it sounds like HD is playing hardball on this one. Could be a long strike from what I'm hearing! Hoist!

That would be a herculean undertaking.  Moving all the tooling that is at York to stamp fenders and other parts; there is a lot of manufacturing there as well as the final assembly.  Nothing is impossible of course.  But that would be a feat worth watching if it were intended to be done in a near term time frame.

The KC plant is pretty well maxed out in space used too.  One would have to wonder, if such a thing really were a consideration, whether Softail production would then temporarily supplant or replace Sportsters?

[Hoist!]

Who knows? If the tooling is "Flexible Manufacturing" then it's a lot of programming which they can copy from the York programs. I really don't know how feasible this is, but I heard they had it all planned in advance. I'm sure there are as many rumors as facts out there, designed to panic either the Union or Management, to get it settled. Time will tell, I guess! Hoist!

[SBB]

I'm with Twolane on this one.
Just glad my garage is full and I'm not wanting an 07.
Those monochromatic  bikes are looking better and better.

But I have to feel bad for all those waiting on new ones.
We all have been there and the strike doesn't help!

[Twolanerider]

I'm with Twolane on this one.
Just glad my garage is full and I'm not wanting an 07.
Those monochromatic  bikes are looking better and better.

But I have to feel bad for all those waiting on new ones.
We all have been there and the strike doesn't help!

Definitely man, most definitely.  Separate from any considerations of the impact on company or employees those people that had bikes ordered have to be curled up in a fetal postion right now. At least for awhile there will be stock at dealerships that people can walk in and buy if they are so inclined.  It's a good bet that any possible or potential negotiations on price or free services are out the window (at least for awhile). But there will be inventory to be purchased.

Bikes specially ordered are going to be the real killer though.  CVOs or firefighter models or Shriner's models (for example); those guys are just stuck.  If Harley moves to ramp up production a bit after the strike ends you know it will quite rightly put primary production ahead of specialty production too.  So even though firefighter bikes and those other specialty models are produced on the regular assembly line and would almost certainly be added back in to the normal production mix it is easy to envision CVO producton being suspended for awhile.  Those folks that have SERKs and SEUCs and the Springers already better count your blessings; because your belated brethren might be waiting a long time.  They could potentially not get any more 07 CVOs at all.

[Hoist!]

Definitely man, most definitely.  Separate from any considerations of the impact on company or employees those people that had bikes ordered have to be curled up in a fetal postion right now. At least for awhile there will be stock at dealerships that people can walk in and buy if they are so inclined.  It's a good bet that any possible or potential negotiations on price or free services are out the window (at least for awhile). But there will be inventory to be purchased.

Bikes specially ordered are going to be the real killer though.  CVOs or firefighter models or Shriner's models (for example); those guys are just stuck.  If Harley moves to ramp up production a bit after the strike ends you know it will quite rightly put primary production ahead of specialty production too.  So even though firefighter bikes and those other specialty models are produced on the regular assembly line and would almost certainly be added back in to the normal production mix it is easy to envision CVO production being suspended for awhile. Those folks that have SERKs and SEUCs and the Springers already better count your blessings because your belated brethren might be waiting a long time. They could potentially not get any more 07 CVOs at all.

Believe me, I started counting them as soon as the strike was announced. That was just a week after I received mine! I hope everyone else waiting gets theirs too! Hoist!

[FR8TRN]

FWIW.........I used to work for a company who is a sub-contractor for the York Plant. An old friend still there was told they have a surplus of about 10,000 bikes they are waiting to ship. Normal production is about 1000 per day so when the strike started they had about a two week supply. Coupled with the high dealer inventories it may be a month or so before the MOCO starts getting seriously concerned. Additionally he mentioned a factory owned by another company right across the street that went out on strike and the company closed it down........hmmm    This could get interesting....

Yeah that was CAT, not exactly a rinky dink company either....you'd think the guys on the picket line would realize that.

[ultrafxr]

Yeah that was CAT, not exactly a rinky dink company either....you'd think the guys on the picket line would realize that.

Can anyone remember Air Traffic Controllers ? ? ?   Sometimes you just don't know how good you've got it until you don't have it.  Or as my old granny would say, you don't miss your water 'til the well runs dry.

[Twolanerider]

Yeah that was CAT, not exactly a rinky dink company either....you'd think the guys on the picket line would realize that.

One important difference there is that Caterpillar (or GM or many other large manufacturing companies) actually have alternative and in many case redundant production sites.  While Harley is certainly a big company it really doesn't have a '"spare" York facility laying around that could even relativly quickly be spooled up to replace all that is done there.

[Twolanerider]

Can anyone remember Air Traffic Controllers ? ? ?   Sometimes you just don't know how good you've got it until you don't have it.  Or as my old granny would say, you don't miss your water 'til the well runs dry.

And one important difference there is that PATCO members were legally obligated not to strike.  They did so anyway.  Then they made the tactical mistake of doing so relatively early in the presidency of someone that had won a solid electoral win and was wanting and waiting for an opportunity to show his bones.  Hell, they were even warned.

[SPIDERMAN]

I talked to two different owners over the weekend Both said the strike would give them a chance to sell down their inventory. (both claimed to have nearly two months of sales either already set up on the floor or in a warehouse) Remember last year we talked about excess inventory all over the country and some dealers actually offering ( gasp) below MSRP. If these two owners represented anything of a cross section, then dealers won't be pressuring the MoCo to settle for a couple months. This made me think, the past couple of weeks I had noticed that my dealer had packed his showroom with new bikes as had the other dealership I'm speaking about here. Anyone else notice a lot more bikes on their dealer's floor before the strike started ?

B B

[ccr]

... This made me think, the past couple of weeks I had noticed that my dealer had packed his showroom with new bikes as had the other dealership I'm speaking about here. Anyone else notice a lot more bikes on their dealer's floor before the strike started ?...

Now that you mention it, I had attributed the increase of bikes on the floors of the local HD shops to be caused by a slowdown in sales due to time of year.............. things that make you go mmmmmmmmmmmm! 

[Midnight Rider]

I talked to two different owners over the weekend Both said the strike would give them a chance to sell down their inventory. (both claimed to have nearly two months of sales either already set up on the floor or in a warehouse) Remember last year we talked about excess inventory all over the country and some dealers actually offering ( gasp) below MSRP. If these two owners represented anything of a cross section, then dealers won't be pressuring the MoCo to settle for a couple months. This made me think, the past couple of weeks I had noticed that my dealer had packed his showroom with new bikes as had the other dealership I'm speaking about here. Anyone else notice a lot more bikes on their dealer's floor before the strike started ?

B B

Both dealers here, owned by the same guy, have the floor FULL of bikes.  They even have four CVO's between them...a Dyna, Springer, Red SEUC, and a new Melon leftover from late last year.  They also have a bunch in crates in the warehouse.  They're probably set through March, then they'll be running short of certain models.  If this things runs through April or May, prices could be all over the board, and I don't see them ever catching up on the CVO production if it lasts that long.

[ultrafxr]

And one important difference there is that PATCO members were legally obligated not to strike.  They did so anyway.  Then they made the tactical mistake of doing so relatively early in the presidency of someone that had won a solid electoral win and was wanting and waiting for an opportunity to show his bones.  Hell, they were even warned.

That is true.  Just saying that they thought they had the power and made what I would call a strategic vs tactical mistake in pushing too hard.  Not the same situation, agreed, but sometimes we all get too puffed up and believe our own hype until we get taken down a notch.  Well maybe I'm the only one that's ever done that.

[FR8TRN]

One important difference there is that Caterpillar (or GM or many other large manufacturing companies) actually have alternative and in many case redundant production sites.  While Harley is certainly a big company it really doesn't have a '"spare" York facility laying around that could even relativly quickly be spooled up to replace all that is done there.

True....

[SilverDawg]

Definitely man, most definitely.  Separate from any considerations of the impact on company or employees those people that had bikes ordered have to be curled up in a fetal postion right now. At least for awhile there will be stock at dealerships that people can walk in and buy if they are so inclined.  It's a good bet that any possible or potential negotiations on price or free services are out the window (at least for awhile). But there will be inventory to be purchased.

Bikes specially ordered are going to be the real killer though.  CVOs or firefighter models or Shriner's models (for example); those guys are just stuck.  If Harley moves to ramp up production a bit after the strike ends you know it will quite rightly put primary production ahead of specialty production too.  So even though firefighter bikes and those other specialty models are produced on the regular assembly line and would almost certainly be added back in to the normal production mix it is easy to envision CVO producton being suspended for awhile.  Those folks that have SERKs and SEUCs and the Springers already better count your blessings; because your belated brethren might be waiting a long time.  They could potentially not get any more 07 CVOs at all.

Man, you guys are killing me here    Mine is due in mid March, but now, who the he** knows if it will even get built

Bubba...HELP

[bisounours]

Probably I've an angel on my shoulders.

Previously, my delivery date on my order was April 07. 
Three days ago, my dealer says my that my Jester R/B is started from the States the January 9th.
The new previous delivery date is the second part of February. 

  Jacques

[ccr]

Probably I've an angel on my shoulders.

Previously, my delivery date on my order was April 07. 
Three days ago, my dealer says my that my Jester R/B is started from the States the January 9th.
The new previous delivery date is the second part of February. 

  Jacques

Great news Jacques.  The bike is on it's way.   

[Fatboy]

Ok, here's some first hand insight to Unions.

1. The only power (in this case) the Union has is the right to strike. And now they've played their hand.
2. The Company has no obligation to meet any Union Demand. They solely must bargain in good faith at this point.
3. For the Union workers things could get better, get worse or stay the same.
4. Since they choose to strike at this point they have nothing........everything is once again negotiable.
5. The MOCO could hire replacement workers if they choose.
6. Replacement workers can be retained after a strike at the expense of the lowest seniority members.
7. If replacement workers are hired the strike could end but some strikers could be left without a job indefinitely.
8. If/when the negotiations reach an impass then the company simply enforces their final offer from the bargaining table.
9. Those who return to work at that point have a job. Those who choose not to report can be permanently terminated.
10. At this point the workers not only lost their pay.....but also forfeited were health insurance, retirement contributions,vacation pay,etc.

 For additional information you can visit: www.unionfacts.com

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Man, you guys are killing me here    Mine is due in mid March, but now, who the he** knows if it will even get built

Bubba...HELP

JOHN I FEEL YOUR PAIN OLE BUDDY ..ILL KEEP YOU UP TO DATE AND WE JUST NEED TO KEEP OUR FINGERS CROSSED THAT YOUR WILL GET TO US ..

BUBBA

[TCinVA]

Both dealers here, owned by the same guy, have the floor FULL of bikes.  They even have four CVO's between them...a Dyna, Springer, Red SEUC, and a new Melon leftover from late last year.  They also have a bunch in crates in the warehouse.  They're probably set through March, then they'll be running short of certain models.  If this things runs through April or May, prices could be all over the board, and I don't see them ever catching up on the CVO production if it lasts that long.

Okay. I'm really feeling bad for me (and all the other folks out there waiting for their CVOs.  So I'll bite - anyone know where there's a B&O SEUC out there that's not spoken for and is still "reasonable"...?     and hey Bubba - I feel your pain man!
TC

[ultrafxr]

Okay. I'm really feeling bad for me (and all the other folks out there waiting for their CVOs.  So I'll bite - anyone know where there's a B&O SEUC out there that's not spoken for and is still "reasonable"...?     and hey Bubba - I feel your pain man!
TC

The longer the strike goes on of course the less "reasonable" the prices will be.  Heck if I were a dealer and had any CVOs I'd want top dollar knowing that there might not be any more for a while.  Guess we'll know pretty soon just how bad this thing might get.  I feel for all you guys waiting on your bikes.  This sucks big time.

[Twolanerider]

Probably I've an angel on my shoulders.

Previously, my delivery date on my order was April 07. 
Three days ago, my dealer says my that my Jester R/B is started from the States the January 9th.
The new previous delivery date is the second part of February. 

  Jacques

Damn Jacques, you really are one lucky sonofabiker.  Everyone seems to have been running roughly on time lately.  And you happen to be three months early at the same time the strike stops everyone else in the pipeline.  Tithe to the road gods my friend because they were looking out for you  .

[Ceej]

I know of a few thousand guys that would take the deal the MoCo had on the table....Fellow Michiganders - FORMER - Auto workers whose union priced them out of jobs right here in my neck of the woods. They would jump at the chance to live in the lower cost of living area of York, PA over a quite pricey metro Detroit, MI for a 40k + a year gig with relatively low skills. Of course they would jump at that chance now that their Union helped destroy the Big 3 over the last 30 years. Growing up and living in Michigan I have heard it all my life, with my dad going from Union worker to management as he put himself through college via night classes while I was a child. When I was in high school he worked at the Detroit Tank plant owned by Chrysler, when they struck dad drove my car to work. Hey, I got a new hood and windows out of the deal after he crossed the picket line!  I am tired of my Union family buddies around here talkin pro Union and how GM or Ford wouldn't or couldn't make it without the almighty Union workers. Non-union plants down south seem to be doing a pretty good job for Japanese automakers using USA workers, building quality cars - sounds like the Union gets in the way of successfull US automakers and US workers - working together. BMW's in SC - the most reliable BMW (Z series) supposedly. Honda Goldwing made in USA, don't have one yet but probably will someday, quite a machine and cheaper than my CVO, But I love my country and my CVO. The biggest problem I think is Monopolies - like the UAW or US Government, that I fear. Unlike GM, Delphi, Ford and the like here in Michigan, Harley is a healthy company to begin with - the Union might feel this means they are ripe to be squeezed, and they think us - the customers, would be pissed at Harley if they played hardball and pushed the union guys out.

If the York jobs were opened up right now to anybody, union or not, under the terms of the last contract offer by HD - - - how long would it take them to be filled??
 
My guess would be two weeks, and watch out for the U-haul caravans from Michigan to York, PA.

If this happened, would you, the HD customer, be less likely to buy another HD?


might make a good poll question.....

[RedDevil]

Okay. I'm really feeling bad for me (and all the other folks out there waiting for their CVOs.  So I'll bite - anyone know where there's a B&O SEUC out there that's not spoken for and is still "reasonable"...?     and hey Bubba - I feel your pain man!
TC

TC,
Definitely feel your pain shipmate.  Guess you should have snapped up that one at Richmond.  But I truly understand why you didn't. Hopefully, this won't last very long, and you'll get your Jester on time.
Cheers ,
Red

[DavidB]

 Harley is to meet with union reps and a federal mediator tuesday Feb 6.
Hopefully this thing will be over quick.
I had the chance to buy a Blue one Sat at MRSP from Smokey Mtn Hd.
I now regret I did`t bring it home.
David B

[SilverDawg]

JOHN I FEEL YOUR PAIN OLE BUDDY ..ILL KEEP YOU UP TO DATE AND WE JUST NEED TO KEEP OUR FINGERS CROSSED THAT YOUR WILL GET TO US ..

BUBBA

Thanks Bubba,

Not much we can do except hope this thing blows by pretty quick.   It was good to meet your fine staff of folk at the store.  Thanks for keeping me in the loop.

John

[DavidB]

Okay. I'm really feeling bad for me (and all the other folks out there waiting for their CVOs.  So I'll bite - anyone know where there's a B&O SEUC out there that's not spoken for and is still "reasonable"...?     and hey Bubba - I feel your pain man!
TC

There was one at Knoxville Hd last week. Call and ask for Jimmy D.

Dave

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

I know of a few thousand guys that would take the deal the MoCo had on the table....Fellow Michiganders - FORMER - Auto workers whose union priced them out of jobs right here in my neck of the woods. They would jump at the chance to live in the lower cost of living area of York, PA over a quite pricey metro Detroit, MI for a 40k + a year gig with relatively low skills. Of course they would jump at that chance now that their Union helped destroy the Big 3 over the last 30 years. Growing up and living in Michigan I have heard it all my life, with my dad going from Union worker to management as he put himself through college via night classes while I was a child. When I was in high school he worked at the Detroit Tank plant owned by Chrysler, when they struck dad drove my car to work. Hey, I got a new hood and windows out of the deal after he crossed the picket line!  I am tired of my Union family buddies around here talkin pro Union and how GM or Ford wouldn't or couldn't make it without the almighty Union workers. Non-union plants down south seem to be doing a pretty good job for Japanese automakers using USA workers, building quality cars - sounds like the Union gets in the way of successfull US automakers and US workers - working together. BMW's in SC - the most reliable BMW (Z series) supposedly. Honda Goldwing made in USA, don't have one yet but probably will someday, quite a machine and cheaper than my CVO, But I love my country and my CVO. The biggest problem I think is Monopolies - like the UAW or US Government, that I fear. Unlike GM, Delphi, Ford and the like here in Michigan, Harley is a healthy company to begin with - the Union might feel this means they are ripe to be squeezed, and they think us - the customers, would be pissed at Harley if they played hardball and pushed the union guys out.

If the York jobs were opened up right now to anybody, union or not, under the terms of the last contract offer by HD - - - how long would it take them to be filled??
 
My guess would be two weeks, and watch out for the U-haul caravans from Michigan to York, PA.

If this happened, would you, the HD customer, be less likely to buy another HD?


might make a good poll question.....

HERE HERE ..very good post !! The union now days wont do much more then break a company and send them to China ...times are changing .... union members need to realize they are "employee's" NOT partners and all they have invested is their time!

Bubba

[RedDevil]

HERE HERE ..very good post !! The union now days wont do much more then break a company and send them to China ...times are changing .... union members need to realize they are "employee's" NOT partners and all they have invested is their time!

Bubba

My take on the unions is that they have out-lived their purpose.  When unions were organized the working conditions in the states were deplorable.  Basically, long hours and very low pay.  Now, they do more damage than good.  They are driving out-sourcing.  US companies cannot afford to keep up with Japan, China, etc on operating costs.  The only way they can survive is to out-source, so who gets pissed off when their members are laid off?  The unions, the ones that caused the problems to begin with.  Sorry for the rant...I've never been a union member, so I probably don't know the whole picture...
Cheers ,
Red

[WFP]

I am not a strong supporter of unions but they do have their place even today...however, in most cases they appear far more concerned with financial issues than working conditions. 

 

An example is the recent "complaint" from former NE Patriot Ted Johnson who says that the Team did not watch out for his welfare related to Head trauma.  This is just the type of area the union SHOULD be negotiating instead of worrying about Pro Bowl Bonus numbers.

 

Another sports analogy is the Baseball strike of 1994...I wrote off basebal on 8/4/1994 for ten years because of that strike.  I found it unreasonable that the players demanded so much money...it only raised ticket prices to stratospheric levels.  Then when I did go back to Fenway park for the first time since, in 2004, i could not belive the difference in that beloved park...it looked like a minor league stadium with all the advertising.

 

Now, I am a capitolist, but I am also reasonable.  If the players did not escalate the pricing, then te fans could have solely focused on the owners for gouging them and there would have been ways to attack that situation.  But now, the owners can say we have to pay the players os we have to charge $$$$$ for top row bleacher seats.  the players argue that they have short careers and deserve >$100K per game and corporate america pays into the park advertising getting seats reducing available seats thereby also raising prices.

 

[VaEagle]

HERE HERE ..very good post !! The union now days wont do much more then break a company and send them to China ...times are changing .... union members need to realize they are "employee's" NOT partners and all they have invested is their time!

Bubba

Hi KentuckyHarleyDude,
I agree with yours and other's ideas about unions hurting themselves by driving up wages and benefit packages. I do see where China would be an attractive labor force for corporate to consider setting up manufacturing.
Not having been an employee of the MOCO I don't know what the day -to-day policies were for Harley in dealing with all of it's employees. I have seen in stockholder booklets,ads and catalogues where actual employees model the clothes etc. and the MOCO acts like since the AMF days the company is a family working together for the success of Harley. I can see where that could breed some sense of entitlement as "family" and a worker was just not the "hired help." Were employees encouraged to invest in the MOCO for their benefit packages too? Maybe behind closed doors employees were told something different from the P.R. generated?
Lower level employees also resent seeing the upper level employees getting large bonuses,severance packages or other benefits when they don't get any raises for years.
I know where I worked in Virginia they don't allow collective bargaining or striking in my occupation but it was nice to have union reps to at least have a regular voice to higher-ups so working conditions or equipment issues could be brought up without repercussions to an individual. Then if we got a raise it was always a percentage raise usually accompanied with an increase cost for health benefits.
The admin would say what are you complaining about 3% is good amount per month increase and we would have to point out, yes 3% of your high admin salary was good but look at 3% of worker's salary then see the difference.
I think that all workers need a fair assessment of the skill levels needed to do their job as well as job risks and working conditions then be paid according to the degree of difficulty and ability.
How many people are really making good money for a low skill or risk job?

[jimp]

I sold the stock short, thats all I have to say.

[skippy]

For what it,s worth a buddy of mine an x HD PHD tech went to work at Freightliner they sent out pink slips lastweek closeing the plant in March  He applied with Indian Motorcycles and got a call today that the new plant in Kings Mt NC will hire him. Also said that a new Chief will be out by the end of 07. Great timeing for Indian....

[Hoist!]

Hey gang, this is the latest from York. Hoist!

Harley meeting ends, another set
Union rep said the next meeting 'couldn't be any worse than today'
By ANDRÉA MARIA CECIL
Daily Record/Sunday News
Article Launched: 02/06/2007 01:32:47 PM EST


Update: 4:17 PM
Feb 6, 2007 — Harley-Davidson representatives and negotiators with the union representing nearly 2,800 of the company's workers concluded their meeting today with two federal mediators just after 3:30 p.m.
The three parties are scheduled to meeting again tomorrow at an unknown time and location.

“I'm optimistic about tomorrow because it couldn't be any worse than today,” said Tom Boger, business representative with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers Local 175.

At least a half-dozen negotiators representing the union and a handful of representatives from Harley-Davidson met today at a Manchester Township hotel.

The meeting also includes two mediators from Washington, D.C.-based Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service. The service is a government agency that tries to preserve and promote labor-management peace and cooperation.

An overwhelming majority of unionized workers at Harley's Springettsbury Township plant, the company's largest with 1.3 million square feet, voted last week to strike after rejecting the company's proposed contract.

Employees said they rejected the proposal mostly because of four factors: wage increases would be contingent upon the union finding a health-care plan Harley approved, a lower wage scale for new hires, health care for retirees and decreased pension benefits.

The president of Maryland-based International Association of Machinists Tom Buffenbarger said today's meeting is “exploratory.”

“Both sides want to get this thing resolved, and I have no doubt there's going to be sincere efforts at the bargaining table to try to get this thing resolved,” he said today.

Around 1:30 p.m. today, Boger said the company had not withdrawn anything from the proposed contract that workers rejected last week.

[TCinVA]

Hey gang, this is the latest from York. Hoist!

Harley meeting ends, another set
Union rep said the next meeting 'couldn't be any worse than today'
By ANDRÉA MARIA CECIL
Daily Record/Sunday News
Article Launched: 02/06/2007 01:32:47 PM EST

Howie,
Just read the "latest" from the York paper's web-site, and the meeting today ended (I think around 3:30).  A HD rep said the meeting ended and no new dates were set... doesn't sound promising.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.  Just wish I was watching from the sidelines on a B&O CUSE  ...
Tony

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Howie,
Just read the "latest" from the York paper's web-site, and the meeting today ended (I think around 3:30).  A HD rep said the meeting ended and no new dates were set... doesn't sound promising.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.  Just wish I was watching from the sidelines on a B&O CUSE  ...
Tony

Tony I hope you get yours ..we do have one more that is supposed to come in about the same time Johns (ColbaltMan) is supposed to be here mid next month ...we seem to feel these have already been built but cant guarantee it ...if you do not get yours you might consdier this B/O I have coming ...

Bubba

[Hoist!]

Hey Tony, hang in there. But if you also like the B/O, I'd talk to KHD about it. After all, A bird in the hand...! Personally, and I'm not starting with the "Red" bike guys, I like the B/O best. It's your bike, and just my $.02! Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

Tony I hope you get yours ..we do have one more that is supposed to come in about the same time Johns (ColaltMan) is supposed to be here mid next month ...we seem to feel these have already been built but cant guarantee it ...if you do not get yours you might consdier this B/O I have coming ...

Bubba

Will completed bikes be shipped while the strike is going on?  Initial reports were of concrete barriers set in place blocking vehicle access points and other types of limitations.  And that doesn't even address the question of Teamsters crossing the line.

[RedDevil]

Howie,
Just read the "latest" from the York paper's web-site, and the meeting today ended (I think around 3:30).  A HD rep said the meeting ended and no new dates were set... doesn't sound promising.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.  Just wish I was watching from the sidelines on a B&O CUSE  ...
Tony

Tony,
Keep the faith.  I can't see how the MoCo, or the union, can let this strike go on too long.  I know the MoCo wants to cut back, but they're coming up on the busiest time of the year here shortly.   From what I've read, most dealers have enough stock on hand to last them until around March, which means if they don't get the line started before then, the MoCo is going to have a lot of pissed off dealers at them.  Now, with the CVO's being hand built, I don't believe you'll lose yours, but it may not make it in March, like it was supposed to.  I still think you'll get it, or I'm optimistic that you'll still get yours.   But remember, I talked to "Big Daddy" and told him where I got my B&O from and he stated that he understood me getting it where ever I could get it.  He said that the CVO's are so hard to get you have to go where you can.  I don't think he would hold it against you at all if you found one elsewhere.   Just my thoughts shipmate.
Cheers ,
Red 

[DavidB]

Does anyone know what month Harley normally starts production for the next years bike ?

[ultrafxr]

Does anyone know what month Harley normally starts production for the next years bike ?

Don't know exactly but I was at the York facility in June last year on my way home from Laconia.  Could not tour the production line because they were producing '07 models which had not yet been introduced. 

[RedDevil]

Don't know exactly but I was at the York facility in June last year on my way home from Laconia.  Could not tour the production line because they were producing '07 models which had not yet been introduced. 

Ultra,
I don't know exactly either, but I would say that given the new model year officially starts in Sept, but I've known dealers to have the new bikes in Aug and already selling them because they are out of the previous years bikes, and that the MoCo has to make a sufficient amount of bikes so that the dealerships can have a pretty good representation of the new models, I would say that May/June is a good guess as to when they start producing the next years models.  I don't know how much time the MoCo needs to shut the lines down for re-tooling like the auto manufacturers do. .
Cheers ,
Red

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Hot off the press



In other developments, Harley-Davidson reported that as a result of the strike in Pennsylvania, it expects to reduce production of engines and transmissions (powertrains) at the Company’s facility in Menomonee Falls, Wis. The Company also expects to reduce production of injection-molded components at its facilities in Tomahawk, Wis.

The Company anticipates that reduced powertrain production could result in temporary layoffs for up to 500 of its approximately 1,500 production and distribution employees in southeast Wisconsin. Reduced components production in Tomahawk could result in temporary layoffs for up to 240 of the approximately 360 production employees who work there.

Layoffs at the Menomonee Falls and Tomahawk facilities could start as early as the week of February 12 for some employees. The Company has sought voluntary layoffs and will implement additional non-voluntary layoffs as needed.

The Company is disappointed by the decision of its union employees in York to strike and regrets the temporary impact the strike may have on some of its Wisconsin employees and its extensive supplier network.

Harley-Davidson’s facility in Menomonee Falls produces “Big Twin” powertrains – the largest of the Company’s engines and transmissions – used in motorcycles assembled in York and Kansas City. The Company’s facilities in Tomahawk produce windshields, fairings, saddlebags, Tour Paks and other components used on motorcycles assembled in York and Kansas City. Motorcycle sidecars are also produced in Tomahawk.

During the strike, the Wisconsin facilities will stop building powertrains and injection-molded components for shipment to the assembly plant in York.

The Company’s powertrain plant in Wauwatosa, Wis., is not expecting reduced production at this time.

[RJ749]

There have always been new model year bikes in the dealers by August.

The MoCo has moved their production dates to adjust with stock and build requirements.  In the 100th Anniversary Year they ran two months longer than normal  to take advantage of the Anniversary demand.  So June would be the standard turnover time for the model year production.  They can however adjust it some depending on dealer days supply if it is too high they most likely just switch earlier to the new model year and don't over build at the end of a year.

A press release stated, "MILWAUKEE (July 13, 2002) - The 2003 Harley-Davidson 100th Anniversary motorcycles celebrate a century of time-tested motorcycle innovation by an American original. The 100th Anniversary model motorcycles capture the balance between form and function, blending timeless beauty with the right technical innovations Harley-Davidson customers want. No other model-year in the history of Harley-Davidson has been more anticipated. To try to meet demand, Harley-Davidson will extend production of 2003 motorcycles by two months, resulting in a 14-month production schedule that will end in September 2003."

[CVOwner]

Here we go! they'll be movin the MOCO to Mexico and nobody will be makin nothin!

[RedDevil]

Hot off the press



In other developments, Harley-Davidson reported that as a result of the strike in Pennsylvania, it expects to reduce production of engines and transmissions (powertrains) at the Company’s facility in Menomonee Falls, Wis. The Company also expects to reduce production of injection-molded components at its facilities in Tomahawk, Wis.

The Company anticipates that reduced powertrain production could result in temporary layoffs for up to 500 of its approximately 1,500 production and distribution employees in southeast Wisconsin. Reduced components production in Tomahawk could result in temporary layoffs for up to 240 of the approximately 360 production employees who work there.

Layoffs at the Menomonee Falls and Tomahawk facilities could start as early as the week of February 12 for some employees. The Company has sought voluntary layoffs and will implement additional non-voluntary layoffs as needed.

The Company is disappointed by the decision of its union employees in York to strike and regrets the temporary impact the strike may have on some of its Wisconsin employees and its extensive supplier network.

Harley-Davidson’s facility in Menomonee Falls produces “Big Twin” powertrains – the largest of the Company’s engines and transmissions – used in motorcycles assembled in York and Kansas City. The Company’s facilities in Tomahawk produce windshields, fairings, saddlebags, Tour Paks and other components used on motorcycles assembled in York and Kansas City. Motorcycle sidecars are also produced in Tomahawk.

During the strike, the Wisconsin facilities will stop building powertrains and injection-molded components for shipment to the assembly plant in York.

The Company’s powertrain plant in Wauwatosa, Wis., is not expecting reduced production at this time.

The snowball effect   By them cutting back on production of the powertrains and injected parts, that means the line of touring  bikes will be delayed even more once the strike is resolved because of having to ramp up the two Wisconsin plants to start producing for York again.  Don't you just love single points of failure? 
Cheers ,
Red

[DavidB]

The next thing ya know the PA unions will try and get the Wis Unions to do a sympathy strike.

[TCinVA]

Bubba, Howie, Red,
Thanks guys for the words of encouragement.  I'm hoping to hear good news in the next couple of weeks - strike over, production firing back up, maybe still see the B&O in April.  My mom's always said - everything happens for the best.  The bike that was supposed to ship on 2 March was probably going to be a Friday bike anyway  .
Bubba, thanks for the offer, I'll certainly keep it in mind.  Where are you located anyway?  I grew up in Hopkinsville.  Mom still lives there.  If the B&O deal doesn't come together, I'd still like to drop by to visit next time I'm in the Bluegrass state (I mean commonwealth)...
The later note about the production year has me a bit concerned as well.  Just have to see how things play out.
Thanks again guys - great "family" here,
Tony 

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Bubba, Howie, Red,
Thanks guys for the words of encouragement.  I'm hoping to hear good news in the next couple of weeks - strike over, production firing back up, maybe still see the B&O in April.  My mom's always said - everything happens for the best.  The bike that was supposed to ship on 2 March was probably going to be a Friday bike anyway  .
Bubba, thanks for the offer, I'll certainly keep it in mind.  Where are you located anyway?  I grew up in Hopkinsville.  Mom still lives there.  If the B&O deal doesn't come together, I'd still like to drop by to visit next time I'm in the Bluegrass state (I mean commonwealth)...
The later note about the production year has me a bit concerned as well.  Just have to see how things play out.
Thanks again guys - great "family" here,
Tony 

Tony we are in the down town thriving metropolis of Paducah Kentucky 

Bubba

[TCinVA]

Tony we are in the down town thriving metropolis of Paducah Kentucky 

Bubba

Bubba,
That was my guess.  I've been to the shop a number of times over the years.  Next time I'm down to visit my mom in "Hoptown", I'll certainly make a point of visiting.
Thanks again for the thoughts and keep me posted,
Tony

[HogBreath]

Bubba,
That was my guess.  I've been to the shop a number of times over the years.  Next time I'm down to visit my mom in "Hoptown", I'll certainly make a point of visiting.
Thanks again for the thoughts and keep me posted,
Tony

And Tony,

I know bubba personally. He's doing my work for MSRP  (just giving a little dig) PLUS giving me a tee-shirt! Good people.

[SilverDawg]

Hey Hogbreath,

You need to change your info in your sig block.  It says 2006 B/O SEUC...me thinks that should be 2007!!!

Also, don't mess with my man Bubba...He is taking care of me

[HogBreath]

Hey Hogbreath,

You need to change your info in your sig block.  It says 2006 B/O SEUC...me thinks that should be 2007!!!

Also, don't mess with my man Bubba...He is taking care of me

How do ya like my signature now? *striking a pose*

Bubba and I are tight! LOL

[TCinVA]

And Tony,

I know bubba personally. He's doing my work for MSRP  (just giving a little dig) PLUS giving me a tee-shirt! Good people.

Sounds like a straight up guy.  Most of us folk from Kentucky are that way  .  You just gotta' love those T-shirts.
Tony

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

And Tony,

I know bubba personally. He's doing my work for MSRP  (just giving a little dig) PLUS giving me a tee-shirt! Good people.

HB pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee you'll make my head swell ...not to mention ruin my reputation as a "stealer" that I have unknowingly aquired LOL ... all kidding aside we do appreciate your patronage 

Bubba

[SilverDawg]

From the Washington Times on 2/10/07

...A strike at Harley-Davidson Inc.'s manufacturing and assembly plant in York, Pa., has entered its second week, with no new talks scheduled between management and the workers' union, the union said yesterday.
    Harley-Davidson says the strike at its largest assembly plant will cause it to miss a first-quarter target of shipping as many as 84,000 motorcycles.
    As a result of the strike, the company says it has reduced production of engines, transmissions and other components at facilities in Menomonee Falls and Tomahawk, Wis.
    Layoffs could begin as soon as Monday at some facilities, the Milwaukee company says.
    First-quarter shipments likely will be at least 5,500 short because of the strike, Banc of America Securities analyst Michael Savner wrote in a research note.
    The loss in revenue from the strike could cost the company up to $11 million a day, said Tim Conder, a leisure analyst with AG Edwards & Sons.
    Almost 2,800 workers at the York facility last week voted to walk off the job Feb. 2 after rejecting a contract offer from the company that would have reduced pay rates for new hires, required employees to pay part of their health insurance premiums and forced pension concessions.
    The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, the union representing the York workers, calls the work-stoppage a "lockout" because it says the company barred employees from entering the plant before the strike was to begin.
    Two days of negotiations between the company and the union ended Wednesday with no resolution, union and company spokesmen said.
    About 450 nonunion employees in York continue to work, the company says.
    The York facility primarily manufactures Harley-Davidson's Touring and Softail model motorcycles.
    Some analysts predict the strike won't last much longer.
    "The strike could continue another two weeks and still allow Harley to make up for lost production later in 2007," Robin Farley, a New York-based analyst for UBS Securities, wrote yesterday in a note to investors. She estimated quarterly earnings would be reduced by 1 cent a share for each day of the strike.
    In November, 1,600 union workers in the Milwaukee area approved contract concessions that Harley-Davidson demanded to proceed with a $120 million plant expansion. Members of United Steelworkers of America initially rejected the proposals, which included lower wages for new employees and a decrease in health insurance, pensions and cost-of-living adjustments for all workers.
    Shares of Harley-Davidson fell $1.56, or 2.25 percent, to close at $67.80 on the New York Stock Exchange

[HogBreath]

HB pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee you'll make my head swell ...not to mention ruin my reputation as a "stealer" that I have unknowingly aquired LOL ... all kidding aside we do appreciate your patronage 

Bubba

Bubba, you got your reputation ALL by yourself! LOL. Besides, I can't say you stole from me, I haven't paid you yet. HEY, check and see if my pipes came in or not. They were thinking they'd be in by Friday. Not that I'm in a hurry, It's too cold to ride.

[Hoist!]

Bubba, you got your reputation ALL by yourself! LOL. Besides, I can't say you stole from me, I haven't paid you yet. HEY, check and see if my pipes came in or not. They were thinking they'd be in by Friday. Not that I'm in a hurry, It's too cold to ride.

Hey Hb, you better be careful man, he's still tuning your bike. Don't you know not to piss-off your waiter before he serves your food. You wait til afterwards (unless you like eating spit)! Hoist!

[HogBreath]

Hey Hb, you better be careful man, he's still tuning your bike. Don't you know not to piss-off your waiter before he serves your food. You wait til afterwards (unless you like eating spit)! Hoist!

Hoist, You do have a point. What can I say? I'm educated beyond my intelligence. He takes it all as fun. Last week, I stopped in the store, asked for Bubba. When I met him I introduced myself as HogBreath and he instantly started laughing. It's all good man.

[Hoist!]

Hoist, You do have a point. What can I say? I'm educated beyond my intelligence. He takes it all as fun. Last week, I stopped in the store, asked for Bubba. When I met him I introduced myself as HogBreath and he instantly started laughing. It's all good man.

You know I'm just messing with ya HB! Hoist!

[HogBreath]

You know I'm just messing with ya HB! Hoist!

Of course, I'm just trying to reach that Senior Member status!

[HogBreath]

Sounds like a straight up guy.  Most of us folk from Kentucky are that way  .  You just gotta' love those T-shirts.
Tony

Are you from KY TCinVa? You have great tastes in motorcycles!

[TCinVA]

Are you from KY TCinVa? You have great tastes in motorcycles!

HB,
Yep.  Grew up in Hopkinsville.  Left for the Navy in 70.  Ended up spending more time than I particularly wanted to in the Washington, D.C. area.  Got pretty deep roots in Northern VA now.  Get back to KY to visit my mom at least once a year.  She stills live in Hopkinsville.
Tony

[PHAZE]

ARTICLE IN THE BUSINESS SECTION OF THE COMMERCIAL APPEAL TODAY. 



Edit: Fixed up the pic for you Phaze.....

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Well as a lot of you know I work for a Harley dealer in Paducah Ky ...and this is how I see it ..... I think the MoCo knows exacally what they are doing ....I honestly feel this is premeditated on the companys part due to the fact that they have over produced bikes and dealers all over the country are screaming bloody murder over standing inventory and lost revinew due to floor plan interest and the lack of urgency on the buyers part which means they shop more for a better price's .... the MoCo had told us at the winter meeting in Orlando that they had met with the Dealers council, realized they had over produced and that they would make an immediate cut back ...what better way then to fource the union to go on strike .... 2800 employees at roughly $20.00 per hour works out to about $9000000 a month is saved in pay roll not to mention what they save in benifits ....why pay employees for building something that there is no need for right now ....I also think the MoCo knew what they were doing when they built to many bikes for the dealers to handle ...I think for one they were testing the market to see what it would bare ...and I think they wanted to raise some cash for verious endevors one being to build the new Harley museum in Milwalkee  ...once they build the bikes and deliver them to the dealer thier money is in the bank regardless to weather the dealers sell them or not ... I think this thing will last until the MoCo wants to end it ...when the numbers get back in round as far as inventory is concerned and the dealers are happy .... I do not have inside information to this effect and these are just my opinions but it sure makes since to me...for what its worth....

Bubba

[SilverDawg]

I was in a meeting last night where a few of my meeting attendees are pretty close to some of their local Harley dealers, and they pretty much stated the same thing as KHD just stated above.  Perhaps it was a premeditated effort to build inventory in anticipation of a strike, or the fact the MoCo over estimated demand and the strike is something they can tolerate for 4-8 weeks to get dealer inventory in line.

One end result may be the MoCo has a pretty good feel on what the "saturation" point is in the US market.  Financially healthy dealers are critical for sustained  profitable growth for the MoCo, and floor plan interest can take a huge bite out of a dealers bottom line.  Profitable dealers SHOULD treat their customers with respect, build competitive facilities, advertise and promote their products, train and pay their employees in a fair and equitable manner and continue to build the Harley brand in their respective market place.

The "sweet spot" for us as consumers is that  point where the dealers can turn their inventory fast enough to not be subject to huge flooring expense, but not so short in supply where waiting lists exists (except CVO's ) and they begin slap the addendums on all of their bikes.  Not sure what that production level is for the US, but somewhere around 2005-2006 model year levels would be my guess.  For those of us who took a boat load of economics classes in college, it is truely a model of supply vs. demand.  Even the MoCo is subject to this basic fundamental principle of business.

I would bet the excess capacity over US demand will go toward filling orders on a global basis.  I would guess they have no plans to cut back production, rather ship it overseas in some of the rapidly expanding markets (China, etc.)  They will become a truely global company to help them continue to grow and keep the mystique alive in the US!!

[PHAZE]

I've got my name on a blue SERK that was to be manufactured on 03/02/07.  The sales manager at the dealership doesn't seem to have any inside info as to what's going on and doesn't indicate that the MOCO has shared any info on how they would get back on track with CVO bikes.  Maybe I'll wait to see what '08 has to offer.

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

I've got my name on a blue SERK that was to be manufactured on 03/02/07.  The sales manager at the dealership doesn't seem to have any inside info as to what's going on and doesn't indicate that the MOCO has shared any info on how they would get back on track with CVO bikes.  Maybe I'll wait to see what '08 has to offer.

Phase I called SPOCK today to ask what to expect in regards to two CVOs we have due in March ...they said it was about a 50/50 chance that we would receive them in March ....

Bubba

[DavidB]

Phase I called SPOCK today to ask what to expect in regards to two CVOs we have due in March ...they said it was about a 50/50 chance that we would receive them in March ....

Bubba

Hey Bubba,
    Was anything mentioned about a new Harley dealer in KY ?

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

David I have not heard anything about a new dealer here in Kentucky ... however we are building a new dealership here in Paducah.

Bubba

[DavidB]

David I have not heard anything about a new dealer here in Kentucky ... however we are building a new dealership here in Paducah.

Bubba

I checked out your webb sight and the new building looks great. I'm gonna ride in that direction in Apr..
I`ll try to get buy that way if you guys keep a put of coffee plugged in. The strike should be over by then and the world placed back in balance.
Dave

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

David your always welcome my friend and Ill have the coffee ready 

Bubba

[SilverDawg]

Phase I called SPOCK today to ask what to expect in regards to two CVOs we have due in March ...they said it was about a 50/50 chance that we would receive them in March ....

Bubba

Bubba,

What is SPOCK?  (OK, besides the pointy-ear dude on Star Trek

John

[PHAZE]

If the plant is on strike, how do they plan to ship CVOs.  I thought that I read somewhere about management building the CVO bikes.  Is that what's going on? 

[sooiee]

Bubba,

What is SPOCK?  (OK, besides the pointy-ear dude on Star Trek

John

John, SPOCK is actualy SPOC.  It stands for Single Point Of Contact.  It's a divison the HQ has for dealers to call.  It's the one place they can go to get all the answers instead of trying to call a million different divisions.  No, it's Not like the SPOCK on Star Trek.     Live Long and Prosper

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Soiee is right but I was trying to be a little incognito with the spelling ....

Bubba

[TCinVA]

The York Daily Record reported today on their web site that the union and management had planned to meet today, but weather forced a postponement.  The plan to meet Thursday.  No mediator - just union reps and the  MoCo folks.
TC

[RedDevil]

The York Daily Record reported today on their web site that the union and management had planned to meet today, but weather forced a postponement.  The plan to meet Thursday.  No mediator - just union reps and the  MoCo folks.
TC

Maybe someone will break the picket line long enough to ship out your Jester Tony .  I'm being the optomist for you.
Cheers ,
Red

[TCinVA]

Maybe someone will break the picket line long enough to ship out your Jester Tony .  I'm being the optomist for you.
Cheers ,
Red

Thanks, Red.  Haven't checked the YDR today to see if the union/management met as planned.  Maybe they'll settle it soon and I won't be waiting much longer... .  Appreciate your optimism.
Tony

[mr_magoo]

I for one wouldn't want a scab built bike. JMO In a time when they have record profits why do they always want to f**k the little guy that does all the work.

[Twolanerider]

I for one wouldn't want a scab built bike. JMO In a time when they have record profits why do they always want to f**k the little guy that does all the work.

Dave, please note I'm only asking the question here and not suggesting what my own opinion might be one way or the other.  Your statements beg a couple of questions though.

First would be do you buy a bike from Harley Davidson, Inc. or from some subset of it's employees?

Second would be (and this has seemed at the core of much of the discussion here so far) is a pay package offering roughly $40k per year (give or take just a bit) to start plus what is what is pretty decent bennies compared to the rest of the market really "f**k"ing the employees in a market where the average start is just only slightly more than half that?

[Midnight Rider]

The profit margins of a company should have no relationship to what they pay their staff.  Total compensation should have a direct relationship to the prevailing wage for job titles requireing similar skill sets, and NOT just Union jobs should be compared.  Though I have nothing against collective bargaining, when the relationship between skills required to perform essential functions of a job, and pay, becomes skewed to the point of being outside what would be considered normal and appropriate for the geographic area, corrections MUST occur.  The company has a right, and even an obligation to both itself and the community, to make corrections in it's compensation plan, if it is based on sound compensatory factors and marketplace analysis.

This chit ain't f'ing rocket science.  Determining pay scales/ranges is not something difficult to accomplish.  Paying someone an appropriate wage or salary within reasonably established ranges can and should be a fairly objective process.  I have not seen a job description or typical duties and responsibilities for a beginning line worker at HD, but based on my knowledge of both the Trades and sound HRM policy/procedure, I'd bet my next paycheck that 40K a year job, plus an additional cost to the company of 10-15K for benefits, is REALLY good pay.  If the workers at HD wanted to propose a reasonable incentive pay plan, based on measureable factors like quality vs. production vs. profit, etc, etc, paid out every quarter or so, THAT would be a reasonable proposition for pay above and beyond fair and equitable wages.

[RedDevil]

The profit margins of a company should have no relationship to what they pay their staff.  Total compensation should have a direct relationship to the prevailing wage for job titles requireing similar skill sets, and NOT just Union jobs should be compared.  Though I have nothing against collective bargaining, when the relationship between skills required to perform essential functions of a job, and pay, becomes skewed to the point of being outside what would be considered normal and appropriate for the geographic area, corrections MUST occur.  The company has a right, and even an obligation to both itself and the community, to make corrections in it's compensation plan, if it is based on sound compensatory factors and marketplace analysis.
This chit ain't f'ing rocket science.  Determining pay scales/ranges is not something difficult to accomplish.  Paying someone an appropriate wage or salary within reasonably established ranges can and should be a fairly objective process.  I have not seen a job description or typical duties and responsibilities for a beginning line worker at HD, but based on my knowledge of both the Trades and sound HRM policy/procedure, I'd bet my next paycheck that 40K a year job, plus an additional cost to the company of 10-15K for benefits, is REALLY good pay.  If the workers at HD wanted to propose a reasonable incentive pay plan, based on measureable factors like quality vs. production vs. profit, etc, etc, paid out every quarter or so, THAT would be a reasonable proposition for pay above and beyond fair and equitable wages.

Most importantly, they have an obligation to their stockholders, as any publicly-owned company does.   I'm not very familiar with unions, as I've never been in a union, but most jobs that I know of, don't offer full medical benefits without some sort of a portion being paid for by the employee.  Damn, I'd love to have a 40K a year, blue-collar job, and not have to pay a dime towards my medical/dental.  That's about another $5-10K depending on the plan, that you can add to the overall annual salary.  I have to contribute a 1/3 towards my medical plan, and I consider that a good deal.  I'm all for getting what you can get, but if it's beyond the norm for your economic area, then I don't feel too sorry for them.  Most union jobs are higher paying then their non-union counterparts, but why is it, when it comes to auto building, the non-union plants in the states are putting out a much better product than the unionized ones?   What I'm saying, is there's no incentive for them to go above and beyond to put out a quality product.  Salaries and benefits in that industry, as in many others, should be based on performance and quality.  I'll bet that if they did that at Harley, we wouldn't be hearing all these quality issue complaints that we have been.  JM$.02...
Cheers ,
Red

[sooiee]

  Damn, I'd love to have a 40K a year, blue-collar job, and not have to pay a dime towards my medical/dental.  That's about another $5-10K depending on the plan, that you can add to the overall annual salary.     What I'm saying, is there's no incentive for them to go above and beyond to put out a quality product. 
Cheers ,
Red

Yeppers.  Math class.  22/hr x 40 = 880/wk.
880 x 52 weeks = 45760/yr.  This is before bonuses or the manditory overtime or manditory saturdays and this is for a brand new person coming in off the streets.  Could have a college degree?  Could be high school/GED diploma?  Thow in some seniority...once you're in...YOU'RE IN!

Well, while on strike they have to pay for their OWN healthcare.  I wonder if it'll get any of them thinking that paying 60-100 bucks per family plan isn't such a bad thing.  Plus the end of the month is coming...mortgages are due.  Auto loans/bike loans are due....could get tight REAL quick for those living paycheck to paycheck.  They don't get unemployment either because it's THEIR choosing to strike. 

In all honesty, I hope they come to SOME sort of resolution.  It's not a good thing for anyone but I wouldn't be surprised if the MoCo stands their ground.  York is just ONE of many.   

J

[hard10]

...  Most union jobs are higher paying then their non-union counterparts, but why is it, when it comes to auto building, the non-union plants in the states are putting out a much better product than the unionized ones?   ...  JM$.02...
Cheers ,
Red

The first one that comes to mind is BMW. The State of South Carloina is a "right to work" state. You have a right to work for a company, you do not have the right to strike.

[CVOJOE]

York, Pa. (February 16, 2007) - Harley-Davidson reported today that it has reached a tentative labor agreement with representatives of International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM) Local 175 in York. The agreement is subject to membership ratification and a vote is expected to occur the week of Feb. 19. If approved, the agreement would end a strike by Harley-Davidson’s 2,800 unionized employees in York that began February 2.

The Company has not disclosed terms of the proposed agreement or the timing of a possible resumption of motorcycle production in York.