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WildClyde

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What Harley Should Have Done
« on: September 29, 2020, 11:21:59 AM »

What Harley should have done: partner with an industry leader who has been working on electric motorcycles since 2006.

https://www.polaris.com/en-us/news/company/polaris-announces-zero-motorcycles-partnership/

https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

Clyde
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iski

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2020, 12:44:20 PM »

Agree. HD missed opportunity.
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Mark

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2020, 07:53:51 PM »

Once again the largest domestic motorcycle company is following, not leading.
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mgallagher

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2020, 09:21:09 PM »

Harley did do that and killed Alta after they took all of the technology Alta built a motocross  bike that was as fast as current Honda and KTM 250 race bikes. Harley. is not a little dumb but a lot dumb. Does anyone  think the live wire is profitable or a cheaper version will be made that is profitable. Not they have the shoe who championed the bike and the frozen chicken ladies steering the ship
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DOCGSS

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2020, 08:57:40 AM »

Actually this is the second go round for Polaris "teaming up" with electric manufacturers as they did with Brammo. I for one am glad HD developed their own electric bike as it is generally considered the best in class currently. Sales does not determine the best platform. At least HD is original while Polaris reminds me of the Chinese corporate mentality. For the life of me I do not understand why this forum has become a Harley haters trolling ground. No one forces anyone to buy a product from HD. If someone does not like a company, why not simple buy a product you do like. It is interesting that so many feel they are the corporate wizards that have the magic formula for HDs success if they would only listen. No company of HDs size is easy. What is the magic formula for the magazine industry. Markets give significant challenges.
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WildClyde

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2020, 11:47:50 AM »

Quote
For the life of me I do not understand why this forum has become a Harley haters trolling ground

I am not a Harley hater!  I currently own two Harleys: a 2016 FLHXSE CVO Street Glide; a 2019 XL1200X Sportster 48. In all, I have owned seven Harleys (three of them CVOs). I have also owned: two Triumphs; a Ducati; a KTM; and three BMWs. Every bike has something to love including the Harleys.

I want to support Harley and I would have purchased a new 2020 Harley but put the brakes on all future Harley purchases. De-committing HD-Connect after promoting it crossed the line for me because I have to be able to trust companies I do business with. If I were a current 2020 Harley HD-Connect user I would be angry as Hell that Harley took a feature away from me after the sale! Harley will have to re-earn my trust before I purchase from them again.

As far as the Livewire goes, others disagree on how competitive it is in the market - especially as compared with Zero:
https://electrek.co/2020/06/10/zero-srf-vs-harley-davidson-livewire-electric-motorcycle/.

Clyde

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Mark

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2020, 09:37:41 PM »

Actually this is the second go round for Polaris "teaming up" with electric manufacturers as they did with Brammo. I for one am glad HD developed their own electric bike as it is generally considered the best in class currently. Sales does not determine the best platform. At least HD is original while Polaris reminds me of the Chinese corporate mentality. For the life of me I do not understand why this forum has become a Harley haters trolling ground. No one forces anyone to buy a product from HD. If someone does not like a company, why not simple buy a product you do like. It is interesting that so many feel they are the corporate wizards that have the magic formula for HDs success if they would only listen. No company of HDs size is easy. What is the magic formula for the magazine industry. Markets give significant challenges.
Is Harley Davidson dumb?  I don’t know, but many are perplexed by decisions the MoCo has made...like developing a $30k electric motorcycle that’s not going to sell because it’s too expensive, has limited range, and isn't cost competitive with other electric offerings.  It may be the best in its class, but if it’s unaffordable to the target audience, we know how that’ll turn out.   
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Ironhorse

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2020, 01:34:18 AM »

Is Harley Davidson dumb?  I don’t know, but many are perplexed by decisions the MoCo has made...like developing a $30k electric motorcycle that’s not going to sell because it’s too expensive, has limited range, and isn't cost competitive with other electric offerings.  It may be the best in its class, but if it’s unaffordable to the target audience, we know how that’ll turn out.

Does anyone know a rider who bought the Livewire? Other than Jay Leno and Jason Momoa,....
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iski

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2020, 07:21:36 AM »

Does anyone know a rider who bought the Livewire? Other than Jay Leno and Jason Momoa,....

Nobody I know.  I do know of a couple of HD owners who were "definitely going to buy a Livewire" but when they saw the price vs the competition they changed their mind.
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Mark

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2020, 09:50:37 AM »

Does anyone know a rider who bought the Livewire? Other than Jay Leno and Jason Momoa,....
I’ve never seen one at a dealership...only at the HD Museum in Milwaukee.  I suspect most dealers don’t want any.
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DOCGSS

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2020, 10:40:11 AM »

Does anyone know a rider who bought the Livewire? Other than Jay Leno and Jason Momoa,....

Great question. It was the same question they asked Elon Musk with the first Tesla Roadster built on a lotus frame. Or SpaceEx. Or flat panels that started dat 10,000 a piece. First entries into a market are expensive and at first niche pieces. Companies factor in the losses. Tesla lost money every year until this last year. But they needed to establish their position in the market. Wall street knew that which is why they have a larger capitalization than Ford. I do not mean to say that HD will become the Tesla of electric motorcycles. But I am happy that when HD produced an electric they took their time, got feedback and have a best in class product. As all best in class products, they will never be affordable to all.
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RivRaptor

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2020, 01:29:59 PM »

^ If best in class means 10 years late to the table to under perform the competition at 10k above the price of their competitors while having early charging issues which stopped delivery of the few that were purchased, then I guess it's class leading.  Be glad you have a 2020 with the 4th version oil pump assembly & primary mod and shouldn't have to live through a sumping issue or fluid transfer problem.  People on this site are true HD fans and love their bikes but when people are spending ever larger sums of money (40K+) and getting unreliable products in return it can leave a bad taste in your mouth.  Space travel was conquered in the 60's as were electric cars in the early 1900's (Miss's Ford drove one) so  I don't see the greatness in a guy who hired old NASA guys and built electric cars with loans, subsidies & selling air credits to show a profit..
 
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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2020, 03:14:46 PM »

My wife's 2018 Honda Odyssey has had 8 recalls. My BMW 440i oil change is unbelievable and it's reliability along with BMW Motorcycles are ranked at the bottom. My 2018 Ram 2500 Diesel Truck has had 4 major failures and each oil change is $600. I can continue, my point is few manufacturers will meet the standards that HD is being asked to by some people here. That primitive technology and engineering existed earlier does not mean that the issues were resolved. We all stand n each others shoulders and improvements are continuous. What electric motorcycle manufacturer has a significant market share and is profitable? The assessment about being best in class is not coming from me, but essentially every test and comparison I have read. It has no interest for me in its current form, I have no interest in sport bike ergonomics. I still will say again no one is forcing anyone to purchase an HD. They are most definitely not perfect, either is my Triumph, BMW or Vespa. When I was in college my 1975 Norton 750 Commando certainly was not, no bike is. If I purchased purely on reliability I would have bought a Yamaha or Gold Wing. I want a Harley and its quirks.
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BT

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2020, 10:44:27 PM »

I’ve never seen one at a dealership...only at the HD Museum in Milwaukee.  I suspect most dealers don’t want any.

Local dealer here on Vancouver Island has lots of them.  They even have demo units and offer hour long test rides.  They have two other stores on the mainland BC and currently show 39 Livewire bikes in stock between them.  One of them has over $5000 cdn in customization done by the dealership. And yes they have sold some.


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mgallagher

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2020, 11:45:46 PM »

I don't think it is about being  haters but it looks like they are trimming the bushes when the roof is falling in. I think the money would be better spent on core products. Baggers are money makers and need r&d to keeps sales from falling
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mgallagher

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2020, 11:57:51 PM »

By the way Tesla has never made a real profit if you read the financial report. That why they are not in the S & P 500. Read the one from the last quarter they counted future tax credits as Realized income.
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Threephase

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2020, 12:44:57 AM »

For the record, I have ridden a Livewire. My next door neighbor bought one. Sitting on it is like sitting on a Sportster. Feels tiny to me. But..... When I twisted the throttle...holy s#!t. That thing is quick. And that was not even in the performance mode. He warned me to hang on to the bars because it would feel like you were trying to get up on a slalom waterski. Now It would not be my only bike, but it was a blast to ride. I have NEVER ridden a bike that was that quick off the line. But 70-100 miles and you are looking for a charging station. It is one of the 1st 500 sold.
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porthole

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2020, 09:16:57 AM »

Is Harley Davidson dumb?  I don’t know, but many are perplexed by decisions the MoCo has made...like developing a $30k electric motorcycle that’s not going to sell because it’s too expensive, has limited range, and isn't cost competitive with other electric offerings.  It may be the best in its class, but if it’s unaffordable to the target audience, we know how that’ll turn out.

Nobody I know.  I do know of a couple of HD owners who were "definitely going to buy a Livewire" but when they saw the price vs the competition they changed their mind.

I did a HD event in NYC of the pre-production Livewire's in 2014. Was an awesome ride.

All the test riders were offered a chance for a sit down with the the HD reps for opinions etc.

By a very large percentage most of us had the same opinions - Keep the price at the $20K mark and get the run time up to at least 100 miles, preferably 120-130 miles.
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Landshark

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2020, 02:32:30 PM »

One of my friends bought one and absolutely loves it. It is far from his only motorcycle but says it so much fun and renews his faith in the motorcycle platform. I wish Harley luck with this project.
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1BdBagr

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2021, 04:02:04 PM »

I don't understand all the hate toward the LiveWire either, I was lucky enough to ride one off the pre-production bikes in 2014 and i've ridden the production version in '19 and '20. Harley produced it as a 'Halo" product much like the CVO bikes are. The comparison tests between the Zero and the LiveWire all show that the H-D is a far better EV than the Zero, so u get what you pay for. Everyone who's talking sh!t needs to go ride one so you can have an EDUCATED opinion, besides it's a blast to ride and I'll guarantee quicker/faster than ANY / Most of your CVO's. 0-60 in the 3 sec range. Range obviously depends on how you ride it. It has a power level adjustment that goes from 0-100% power, it can be dialed down if you don't want someone to have access to 100% power.
   Me, personally, I think H-D screwed themselves on the pricing. If it was sub $25K they wouldn't be languishing in dealerships. I think they should have priced them at a near break even proposition and put them in as many hands as possible, exposing new buyers to the H-D family. $30K is a lot of money. I'm presently scaring up the money for an old air-cooled 911 Carrera, then after that, it's a wrecked project '18 Road King Special. Once i get those, I'm going to seriously look into a LiveWire as a urban commuter bike, I live in an area with many many many places to charge EV's and the 100-145 mile range would be just fine. It's not a touring bike and will never be one, but it's damn fun to ride. GO RIDE ONE, then report back.
Tim
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wgs4972

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Re: What Harley Should Have Done
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2021, 10:32:10 AM »

Actually this is the second go round for Polaris "teaming up" with electric manufacturers as they did with Brammo. I for one am glad HD developed their own electric bike as it is generally considered the best in class currently. Sales does not determine the best platform. At least HD is original while Polaris reminds me of the Chinese corporate mentality. For the life of me I do not understand why this forum has become a Harley haters trolling ground. No one forces anyone to buy a product from HD. If someone does not like a company, why not simple buy a product you do like. It is interesting that so many feel they are the corporate wizards that have the magic formula for HDs success if they would only listen. No company of HDs size is easy. What is the magic formula for the magazine industry. Markets give significant challenges.
Right on- so with you on this!


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