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Author Topic: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling  (Read 4405 times)

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GregKhougaz

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17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« on: December 29, 2021, 04:05:13 PM »

I would really like to disagree with some of this but can't. Let's hope 2022 is a good year for the motor company.

17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2021, 06:07:07 PM »

Somewhat repetitive, but HDs problems are also somewhat repetitive.  Agree with most of the points made here.

Unfortunately, nobody with the ability to do so seems to have a clue how to turn it around or change things for the better.  I remain hopeful that the MoCo remains intact, but it seems ripe for a buyout & destined to be more of a marketing logo at some future point more than a manufacturer of American iron.
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mark

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2021, 08:10:57 PM »

Maybe the soup and cereal bar executive the MoCo hired/fired could come back to save the company…
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 06:00:55 PM by Mark »
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2021, 08:19:54 PM »

Hard to get too worked up, considering how many times over the past almost 120 years, people have said HD is done.  And yet....
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2021, 08:29:02 PM »

HD will survive, it always has. 

The MoCo needs to address issues of putting riders ahead of profits. While one has to admire the capitalist attitude of making money regardless of the cost (think Ford with the exploding Pinto) HD needs to step up their quality.  I know there are dozens on this site who have never had a lick of problems with their bikes, however we seem to hear more from those who do.  It shouldn't be that way.

But HD does have one Ace up their sleeve, the undying loyalty of their base.  Buy a 110 and it grenades, go out and buy another.  Watch that one grenade, go out and buy another.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2021, 10:47:04 PM »

The idea that any company would care less about profits and more about their customers is ridiculous. They are in business to make money.  CEOs have to answer to the shareholders, who care only about making money. 

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2021, 10:54:03 PM »

Hard to get too worked up, considering how many times over the past almost 120 years, people have said HD is done.  And yet....
....if they do go under......my '20 will get along just fine using the aftermarket exclusively, seeing as how I seem to be moving that way now.
 
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Ironhorse

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2021, 11:15:44 PM »

The idea that any company would care less about profits and more about their customers is ridiculous. They are in business to make money.  CEOs have to answer to the shareholders, who care only about making money.

But it is possible to make money and build a good product, lots of manufacturers do. Honda, Toyota, Nissan all make good dependable products. And they make money for their shareholders. So is it unreasonable to ask the same of HD?
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2021, 05:17:47 PM »

HD will survive, it always has. 

The MoCo needs to address issues of putting riders ahead of profits. While one has to admire the capitalist attitude of making money regardless of the cost (think Ford with the exploding Pinto) HD needs to step up their quality.  I know there are dozens on this site who have never had a lick of problems with their bikes, however we seem to hear more from those who do.  It shouldn't be that way.

But HD does have one Ace up their sleeve, the undying loyalty of their base.  Buy a 110 and it grenades, go out and buy another.  Watch that one grenade, go out and buy another.


 Loyalty dies if it's taken advantage of too often..... Or if your lifters implode on one to many vacation trips  :soapbox:
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2021, 07:08:05 PM »


 Loyalty dies if it's taken advantage of too often..... Or if your lifters implode on one to many vacation trips  :soapbox:

And yet members here have taken to swapping out lifters every 2nd oil change as the answer. Is that really the answer?  Would we accept this with our cars and trucks?  No. But somehow it’s what we do when we buy an HD. And as long as we keep accepting their screw up and finding our own workaround HD will continue to sell us lemons.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2021, 07:54:57 PM »

I’ve always said if they warrantied their bikes for 3 or 4 years they would go out of business on warranty claims.  Sad we are there testers and pay the bills to boot on our dime.  I’ll never spend $40k on one of their bikes again.  There used to be so much excitement on the new model year change and now no one even notices.   :soapbox:
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2021, 12:52:19 AM »

And yet members here have taken to swapping out lifters every 2nd oil change as the answer. Is that really the answer?  Would we accept this with our cars and trucks?  No. But somehow it’s what we do when we buy an HD. And as long as we keep accepting their screw up and finding our own workaround HD will continue to sell us lemons.
We must all like lemonade pretty well!!
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2021, 12:17:57 PM »

Hard to get too worked up, considering how many times over the past almost 120 years, people have said HD is done.  And yet....
Same was said about many car Manufacture, like Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Mercury and so on.

I do not think HD will go away, but they will continue to have less and less sales.  Yes there are younger people in late 20's and early 30's being the, but not near enough to replace the HD loyalists that are dying or giving up riding.

The Harley touring line is the Most expensive motorcycle out there, yet the others have a much more modern frame design, suspension design, better power, better handling, Ride modes, and the list goes on.  Only categories Harley wins in are Looks and options for customization. 

Hopefully, Harley does more with the Pan America motor.  That bike is a step in to a new market, and is very advanced.  ADV bike of the year, here in USA and in Japan and a few other countries.

Harley really needs to update the touring line bad. 
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2021, 12:49:12 PM »


Harley really needs to update the touring line bad.

 :2vrolijk_21:  18th Reason, not so shady.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2021, 03:42:41 PM »

Harley really needs to update the touring line bad.

And they will, they always have. 

But HD is stuck with "tradition".  By that I mean to appease their aging loyalists, the new bikes need to appear the same as previous years, minus a few tweaks like a mail slot in the fairing and different shaped tour pack.  To the untrained eye, a 2021 ElectraGlide looks almost like a 1977 ElectraGlide, and therein lies the tradition.  Now HD has done excellent over the years with adding fuel injection, ABS, and water cooling, all modern updated stuff. 

Where HD fails is in price and dependability.  No one wants to spend $45,000 on a bike that needs to have the lifters swapped out every other oil change.  No one wants to buy a touring bike that will break a compensator in the middle of Yellowstone National Park.

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2021, 05:26:29 PM »

I could write paragraphs about this subject and the article does actually graze over some of what I believe are the issues affecting HD. May tomorrow....
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2022, 07:10:07 AM »

And they will, they always have.

I agree with your statement, except.... They are always last to the party, wait until they know they can't wait any longer, always push it to the brink of the "loyal" customers jumping ship and then only providing the bare minimal modern advancement. The biggest example, why on earth would they not already have a full liquid cooled touring bike in a modern frame with a modern (one that actually works like it should) suspension. Other than preserving the shareholder dollar there is no excuse for the bikes they are sending out the door. And, if you really wanted to worry about the shareholder dollar this would have been done years ago and that dollar would have some teeth now.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2022, 10:06:29 AM »

And they will, they always have. 

But HD is stuck with "tradition".  By that I mean to appease their aging loyalists, the new bikes need to appear the same as previous years, minus a few tweaks like a mail slot in the fairing and different shaped tour pack.  To the untrained eye, a 2021 ElectraGlide looks almost like a 1977 ElectraGlide, and therein lies the tradition.  Now HD has done excellent over the years with adding fuel injection, ABS, and water cooling, all modern updated stuff. 

Where HD fails is in price and dependability.  No one wants to spend $45,000 on a bike that needs to have the lifters swapped out every other oil change.  No one wants to buy a touring bike that will break a compensator in the middle of Yellowstone National Park.
The Frame is 13 years old for the touring bike.  It is long, long over due for an update.  Nobody is using and older design.  Suspension on it is 1960's at best.  Every touring bike out there has better suspension.  Every touring bike out there has ride modes, and have had ride modes for years. 

Seems the M-8 does not need lifter changes like the 110 twin cam did.  Sure they added fuel injection and ABS, but the suspension still SUCKS.  Put 2000 into the suspension and its still not close to as good as my Pan America, and its still not as good as a Goldwing or a Indian Challenger. 

Harley has the looks down pat, nothing beats Harley touring bike looks.  Every other touring bike beats it in performance and handling.
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Finster101

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2022, 04:05:42 PM »

Seems to me many of these upgrades everyone desires is going to affect the looks rather drastically.  Hell you can't even see the motor in a wing and it is a 10 hour job to change an air filter.  There is no question about poor engine internal part combinations made.  The 110 is a perfect example.  If Harley goes to a Mono shock frame anf full cowling on it's touring bikes I sure won't be buying one.   
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2022, 09:10:48 AM »

First quality and dependability, I believe, are the core goals to turning the ship. Then they have to widen their market to attract new customers.  I believe the problem with the V-Rod was no the motor, it was the bike they put it in. Only time will tell, but I have no interest in purchasing a new HD when what they put out just doesn’t stand the test of time for reliability.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2022, 04:14:35 PM »

Seems to me many of these upgrades everyone desires is going to affect the looks rather drastically.  Hell you can't even see the motor in a wing and it is a 10 hour job to change an air filter.  There is no question about poor engine internal part combinations made.  The 110 is a perfect example.  If Harley goes to a Mono shock frame anf full cowling on it's touring bikes I sure won't be buying one.

It's only 4 hours to change the air filter on the new GoldWing,....LOL!!

HD can make most of those changes without losing too much in the looks department.  No need to go single-side swing arm with shaft-drive.  They can start by changing the suspension to Ohlins or Legends or even Works quality.  BUT HD keeps going to the lowest bidder for suspension components, as well as seals, gaskets and bearings.  Going to an engine with full water cooling like the V-Rod would help immensely, they've already figured out where to hide the radiators and fans.  Ride modes are really an ECM application that is selectable by a switch.  It can't be too difficult to build a programmable ECM once you go fully water cooled. All of this is possible in a few years.  But like you said, internal parts and quality is what must be addressed.  As a rider who owns both a CVO Ultra and a new generation GoldWing, I can only say I'd rather send my bike to the shop for an air filter change every 30,000 miles than a lifter change every 12,000.

Of course if HD did all those upgrades the base line price would be $60k.  But then there's that built in blind brand loyalty that we all suffer from. That will make us go out and buy the newest old technology HD can come up with.
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Finster101

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2022, 05:34:04 PM »

"Of course if HD did all those upgrades the base line price would be $60k.  But then there's that built in blind brand loyalty that we all suffer from. That will make us go out and buy the newest old technology HD can come up with."

I guess I never had to have the latest and greatest.  Probably why I have an 08 Roadglide and a 93 Fatboy. 
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2022, 07:13:08 AM »

 Not safe to buy anything that is HD new technology first year production, I learned that the hard way, even upgraded old technology is questionable. I’m sure there has to be some interesting changes to the bikes this year and somehow the market share that HD has on the touring bikers in the USA will continue. After all Indian sucked them in back at the race track and they did very well, the effort put forth was impressive in the results. 

A driveshaft is due on the baggers at the least, R&R a rear wheel on a goldwing is a pleasure compared to a HD FLH. Too much life left on the M8 patent for a change there. I anxiously await the unveiling of the 22's.  :drink:
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2022, 01:31:52 PM »

This article was written by a non-biker so most of it was arm-chair quarter back. But they did get one thing right- Keith Wandel totally F'd Harley-Davidson and he made millions doing it. The American Way.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2022, 04:43:45 PM »

A driveshaft is due on the baggers at the least, R&R a rear wheel on a goldwing is a pleasure compared to a HD FLH.

Actually, the way the HD Loyalists are aging up, I think Reverse is needed more than shaft drive.  In fact, I say both.  The dressers are heavy enough as it is.  Add a drive shaft and the weight goes up quite a bit.  Reverse will help with that.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2022, 07:08:21 AM »

Not safe to buy anything that is HD new technology first year production, I learned that the hard way, even upgraded old technology is questionable. I’m sure there has to be some interesting changes to the bikes this year and somehow the market share that HD has on the touring bikers in the USA will continue. After all Indian sucked them in back at the race track and they did very well, the effort put forth was impressive in the results. 

A driveshaft is due on the baggers at the least, R&R a rear wheel on a goldwing is a pleasure compared to a HD FLH. Too much life left on the M8 patent for a change there. I anxiously await the unveiling of the 22's.  :drink:

22's are driving at the dealers now.  The touring models are the same old, same old.  The Antique frame from 2009. 

My Pan America is all new, and so far very good in the first 4 months 5000 miles.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2022, 07:59:34 AM »

22's are driving at the dealers now.  The touring models are the same old, same old.  The Antique frame from 2009. 

My Pan America is all new, and so far very good in the first 4 months 5000 miles.


Dave, you are a beta tester and I wish you luck sir, the pan american does look like a fine machine, if I was thirty years younger I may consider one.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2022, 10:54:20 AM »

22's are driving at the dealers now.  The touring models are the same old, same old.  The Antique frame from 2009. 

My Pan America is all new, and so far very good in the first 4 months 5000 miles.

REALLY,....same bike, different paint?!?!  No shaft drive, no reverse? No adjustable passenger floor boards?  Don't worry about being a "Beta Tester".  Everyone who rides a Harley is.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2022, 07:18:05 AM »


Dave, you are a beta tester and I wish you luck sir, the pan american does look like a fine machine, if I was thirty years younger I may consider one.

I was a Beta tester on the M8 also.  I ride a Harley, that's why I have at least two, need something when the other is broke.

Seriously, so far the Pan America is great.  Very good suspension, and very adjustable.  Very good brakes, Engine has lots of power.  The bike is the quickest stock Harley I have rode, its also the fastest stock harley I have rode.  This is also the best Handling and riding Harley I have had.  This is what happens when you have lots of suspension travel, and ride modes can make it plus for interstate or around town, and then set it very firm for cornering. 

Really was hoping to see some of the PA features bleed into the touring bikes.  Pan America Special has heated Grips, why not on a Road Glide special?  Especially seeing PAS is 9K less money.  PAS connects wirelessly to your head set, why cant the Road Glide special with out spending 400 for a WHIM? 
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TN

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2022, 07:58:37 AM »

What BMW is doing

https://apple.news/AbA2wOiXMR7a1txwcFCda5A


Added a youtube link     
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 08:34:36 AM by TN »
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Ironhorse

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2022, 09:19:51 AM »

What BMW is doing

https://apple.news/AbA2wOiXMR7a1txwcFCda5A


Added a youtube link     

All that for $32k out the door. “Yeah, but it’s not a Harley”,.........for $50k and old technology.
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GregKhougaz

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2022, 01:16:00 PM »

This exemplifies the standards that Harley sets for itself. Received today:

Dear Greg,
You have some great H.O.G. items on the way! Your Renewal Full Package - No Card just shipped to the following address 10291 N MARIEL LN, LOS ANGELES, California, 90077-3501, USA.

You will receive it by February 5, 2022.

Thanks and Ride Safe.
Harley-Davidson, 3700 W. Juneau Avenue, Milwaukee, WI 53208

Only Harley could take a month to mail something like this.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2022, 02:32:06 PM »

This exemplifies the standards that Harley sets for itself. Received today:

Dear Greg,
You have some great H.O.G. items on the way! Your Renewal Full Package - No Card just shipped to the following address 10291 N MARIEL LN, LOS ANGELES, California, 90077-3501, USA.

You will receive it by February 5, 2022.

Thanks and Ride Safe.
Harley-Davidson, 3700 W. Juneau Avenue, Milwaukee, WI 53208

Only Harley could take a month to mail something like this.


Got the same HOG email, different delivery date but still a month out. Over the past few years have received an incomplete mailing from HD a few times.  A call to customer service & about a month later the missing item(s) arrive.  Self touting their inefficiency is one way to look at it.  Considering the benefits reductions over the past few years doubt I would have signed up for the Life deal.  Seemed like a good deal at the time, now not so much.
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Finster101

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2022, 08:38:00 PM »

Simple solution.  Buy a Beamer and quit bitchin.  Some of you guys spend a ton of money on a bike after having several others of the same make and continue to make the same complaints, then spend thousands on said bike you aren't happy with.  What the hell.  Change brands.  I understand you have every right to voice your opinion but why do you keep spending money on what you feel is an inferior product?  There is an ass for every seat, maybe you need to find a new seat.  Flame on.   :sauer005:
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 08:52:23 PM by Finster101 »
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Ironhorse

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2022, 10:15:38 PM »

Change brands.  I understand you have every right to voice your opinion but why do you keep spending money on what you feel is an inferior product?

Yup, gotta agree. 
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2022, 11:37:10 PM »

When I joined this forum, a casual read indicated it was not some "Rah rah sis boom bah YAY!" Harley place.  It was & remains a great place to get answers for problems & issues that as owners we do not always get from the MoCo, as well as fixes for these issues & problems.  That process often involves bitching, such is life on internet forums forever, from my experience. 

If I wish to read glowing reports of how great everything Harley is, all I have to do is go to their website or read their marketing information.  If I wish to read about Harley in the 2022 MC world, I read here & a couple of other places.  HD lagging behind the market is the subject of this thread.  There are thousands of other threads that can be read here that have a different subject matter. If some HD fan boys can't take the heat, best they read elsewhere is my opinion.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2022, 04:48:43 AM »

When I joined this forum, a casual read indicated it was not some "Rah rah sis boom bah YAY!" Harley place.  It was & remains a great place to get answers for problems & issues that as owners we do not always get from the MoCo, as well as fixes for these issues & problems.  That process often involves bitching, such is life on internet forums forever, from my experience. 

If I wish to read glowing reports of how great everything Harley is, all I have to do is go to their website or read their marketing information.  If I wish to read about Harley in the 2022 MC world, I read here & a couple of other places.  HD lagging behind the market is the subject of this thread.  There are thousands of other threads that can be read here that have a different subject matter. If some HD fan boys can't take the heat, best they read elsewhere is my opinion.

I could not express my thoughts about this forum any better, well said!
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2022, 06:49:44 AM »

Not a Fan of the BMW.  It's suspension is better then the Ultra, more travel front and rear, and automatic sag adjustment on the rear. 

I was hoping Harley would update the touring frame, sigh....maybe next year.


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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2022, 07:09:05 AM »

Simple solution.  Buy a Beamer and quit bitchin.  Some of you guys spend a ton of money on a bike after having several others of the same make and continue to make the same complaints, then spend thousands on said bike you aren't happy with.  What the hell.  Change brands.  I understand you have every right to voice your opinion but why do you keep spending money on what you feel is an inferior product?  There is an ass for every seat, maybe you need to find a new seat.  Flame on.   :sauer005:

 I may just buy a BMW, quit bitcin, I don't think so. My last new HD I bought is a 2009 FLTRSE3, I still ride that today. The 2022 HD has the same frame , different front end by some degree, I think that’s the major thing in need of change, comparing other brands is part of it. Motorcycle enthusiasts is a passionate bunch, I use to be a loyal customer, loyalty should be a two way street. The comparison in products show that technology can be had at a better pricepoint than HD offerings right now, HD customers has given them a pass for years just so they could promote you can buy a lifestyle. Obviously it worked for years.

While I may not be the richest man here I could ride anything HD has got in their line, I choose what I have because I am a DIY’er and not by choice, a whole other story. How bout you mount up on whatever you ride and come to a GTG in MV, I’ll buy ya a beer and we’ll share the road for a while.


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« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 07:11:37 AM by TN »
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Finster101

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2022, 01:19:01 PM »

I may just buy a BMW, quit bitcin, I don't think so. My last new HD I bought is a 2009 FLTRSE3, I still ride that today. The 2022 HD has the same frame , different front end by some degree, I think that’s the major thing in need of change, comparing other brands is part of it. Motorcycle enthusiasts is a passionate bunch, I use to be a loyal customer, loyalty should be a two way street. The comparison in products show that technology can be had at a better pricepoint than HD offerings right now, HD customers has given them a pass for years just so they could promote you can buy a lifestyle. Obviously it worked for years.

While I may not be the richest man here I could ride anything HD has got in their line, I choose what I have because I am a DIY’er and not by choice, a whole other story. How bout you mount up on whatever you ride and come to a GTG in MV, I’ll buy ya a beer and we’ll share the road for a while.


RideOn



I just might do that since in 21 I officially became an old retired guy.  I'm on an 08.  You kind of prove my point in a way.  Why should we buy a new bike at the price they are to basically get a better stereo.  My bike has been to AK and back to Laconia a couple of times to northeast GA where a buddy has a house and most recently to Mid-Ohio sports car track for vintage Honda days all from Ft. Myers Florida.  It is not a CVO and it has never been on a trailer.  My point is why buy a new one if you feel all you are going to be doing is fixing it ? 
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2022, 02:20:53 PM »

The comparison in products show that technology can be had at a better price point than HD offerings right now, HD customers has given them a pass for years just so they could promote you can buy a lifestyle. Obviously it worked for years.

Well as soon as us "Old Timers" pass on, HD might find itself with products no one wants to buy for what their asking.  I do think the water cooled Pan America and Live Wire electric bikes are the future of the MoCo, they just need to find a new batch of people eager to give their money for a "life style".

You would think that a company whose target buyers have replaced hips, knees, shoulders and have arthritis and more would figure out a way to add reverse to a 900 pound motorcycle.  BMW did, Honda did, why can't Harley-Davidson?
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2022, 07:02:55 AM »

Well as soon as us "Old Timers" pass on, HD might find itself with products no one wants to buy for what their asking.  I do think the water cooled Pan America and Live Wire electric bikes are the future of the MoCo, they just need to find a new batch of people eager to give their money for a "life style".

You would think that a company whose target buyers have replaced hips, knees, shoulders and have arthritis and more would figure out a way to add reverse to a 900 pound motorcycle.  BMW did, Honda did, why can't Harley-Davidson?

The Revolution Max is a very good motor.  I do believe it will be part of the future of Harley Davidson.  It will be used in more than just the Pan America and Sportster S.  Hopefully sooner rather than later.  I was disappointed to seen none of the new technology from those bikes carried over into the 2022's.  I would have hoped the Sportster TTF display would have carried over to the softail.  Some of the ride mode should have carried also. 

Harley didn't even do the simple things, like heated grips on all the Specials or heated gear plugs.  Those are standard on the Sportster S and Pan America S, for 10K less money.  I can make and receive phone calls on my Pan America S with out buying a 400 dollar WHIM. 

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2022, 07:19:37 AM »

Indian moving forward.

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2022, 12:28:22 PM »

Indian moving forward.


Yet it still has the karaoke machine inner fairing, cheap fit and finish and the rubber seals for the bags are glued into channels in the lid of the bags. Those are prone to deforming with heat and cold so they'll eventually fall out of their channels. Their high end one starts at $33k and goes up from there.

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Ironhorse

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2022, 12:47:02 PM »

Yet it still has the karaoke machine inner fairing, cheap fit and finish and the rubber seals for the bags are glued into channels in the lid of the bags. Those are prone to deforming with heat and cold so they'll eventually fall out of their channels.

So true on all accounts.  I guess each of us gets to pick their own poison. When stuck on the road in the middle of a tour, I'd rather the issue be saddlebags leaking from dried up seals than a locked up engine due to sumping.

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2022, 03:10:21 PM »

So true on all accounts.  I guess each of us gets to pick their own poison. When stuck on the road in the middle of a tour, I'd rather the issue be saddlebags leaking from dried up seals than a locked up engine due to sumping.
At least there will a dealer close by to deal with it......

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2022, 03:59:55 PM »

Yet it still has the karaoke machine inner fairing, cheap fit and finish and the rubber seals for the bags are glued into channels in the lid of the bags. Those are prone to deforming with heat and cold so they'll eventually fall out of their channels. Their high end one starts at $33k and goes up from there.

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And this is all from your hands on experience ? Please tell me more so I don’t waste my time, I ain’t got much to waste these days. Does the ride command screen give me the lyrics so I can sing along during the ride? Karaoke machine function.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2022, 04:14:06 PM by TN »
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2022, 04:43:35 PM »

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Ironhorse

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2022, 05:43:39 PM »

At least there will a dealer close by to deal with it......

Having had the stator on my ‘01 replaced in Montana, Utah, Arizona, and California I can attest that that. Luckily a Stator is a half day job that can be pushed to the head of the job list. A sumped and locked up engine is going to take a lot longer to deal with.

On the plus side I have t-shirts from all those dealerships.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2022, 09:09:34 PM »

And this is all from your hands on experience ? Please tell me more so I don’t waste my time, I ain’t got much to waste these days. Does the ride command screen give me the lyrics so I can sing along during the ride? Karaoke machine function.
Have you looked at one in person? I have. They're hideous.

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2022, 10:20:03 PM »

They may be struggling even with us old timers because Of the price and availability of certain models.

I made the switch to my 2017 Indian Chieftain Darkhorse and have been very satisfied. It is not without a few issues, but Polaris warranty has taken care of all of them.

I now have almost 30k on it and have put a set of tires and oil changes performed by my dealer at a very reasonable price and timeline that works for me.

I still own my 2012 CVO Softail convertible with 48k and my son and grandson ride it more that I do, but I wouldn’t sell it for anything- it’s one of 307 made for US production and always gets looks where ever I ride it.

We all like to complain of the problems, but we still all have a choice as to what we like to ride.

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2022, 07:11:41 AM »

Have you looked at one in person? I have. They're hideous.

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Have you rode one?  I will say the look of the inner fair is bad, I do not like it at all.  However the suspension is far better than my 19 CVO Road Glide, the bike handles better in my opinion and rides way better.  Comparing a road glide special to a Challenger, the Indian has a very slight edge on the power.  Comfort, is up to individual ride.  Stock handles bars have never worked for me on my Haleys and would not work on the challenger either.

I do have like like stock bars on the Pan America, but did add H-D two inch risers.

Harleys touring bike is extremely dated and very long in the tooth.  In needs to have a much better suspension, and to do that means a frame redesign.  22 is the 14th year Harley has used that Frame.  Every one else has a much batter frame and suspension.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2022, 08:18:05 AM »

And this is all from your hands on experience ? Please tell me more so I don’t waste my time, I ain’t got much to waste these days. Does the ride command screen give me the lyrics so I can sing along during the ride? Karaoke machine function.
Some people will tie themselves in a knot to knock anything not HD.  The dash looks no different than a RG and there’s nothing wrong with the bag gaskets either.  I’d give the fit/finish edge to HD, but engine design/durability to the Indian.  And I’m speaking from experience because I’ve owned one for two years & have two buddies that own one.  So, my post is first hand info.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2022, 08:51:19 AM »

Have you looked at one in person? I have. They're hideous.

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I’ve looked at one, fondled it, rode it and I do see one in my future. When I test drove one it was a standard model they were having problems with throttle body, software, something which I’m not sure of. I ain’t buying first year of anything anymore after prior experience with the MOCO and we’ll make it right scenario with their 110 innovation.

I’m not glued to HD, I can have my neck tattoo reworked to whatever but it’s what I got right now and I like it too.


RideOn

And speaking of hideous............ :drink:    I'll get back with ya on this
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2022, 09:41:33 AM »


 They're hideous.

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That kind of blanket assessment never (ok, rarely) means anything.  Looks / design / style are so subjective.  I've still never come around to thinking the Tour Glide was an even decent looking bike (though I had and wore out an FXRT years and years ago).  For a long time I thought the Road Glide was ugly.  Then I didn't. 

The other makes and models are certainly different.  They might or might not be outside my personal sensibilities for what is a good looking machine.  But that's just me.  No blanket assessments.  Except for the Tour Glide.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2022, 10:09:29 AM »

Went back & read the "17 Reasons" listed in the article in the first post in this thread.  Oddly, or not oddly, Indian is not mentioned by name as a reason.  It could be considered a part of a reason - #6 for example - yet the existence of Polaris - also not mentioned - is not a primary subject of the article.

Most all products have competition.  Except Oreos, which have a weak sort of competition but it's not really competition because - Oreos. Harley's problems are internal more than external was the subject of what I read. If Harley does not do what they need to do as a company, yes their competition will eat their lunch, to use a time honored technical financial analytical term.  But the reason for that, since Harley has been a market leader for a long time in their dominant category, is Harley itself.  If Harley was doing or had been doing what was needed to be done, the emergence of Indian would be akin to a gnat on an elephant's back instead of Indian eating a big chunk of Harley's lunch.

As to arguing the finer points of loving Indians or loving to hate Indians or such - some like 'em, some don't.  Indians have their own sets of problems - have several friends who own them - so they are not problem free.  Harley decided long ago to be more of a follower & not a leader in the MC industry.  Other brands innovate while Harley sits back & waits to perceive the difference between a verifiable MC trend vs a fad, and then they copy something, sometimes badly.  Other motor companies do the same, it's a strategy.  Harley is more more behind than they should be on tech & unless they change their strategy they will end up further behind IMHO.
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Ironhorse

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2022, 11:37:16 AM »

  Harley is more more behind than they should be on tech & unless they change their strategy they will end up further behind IMHO.

Could not agree more.  In the field of "Big Touring Bikes", Indian, BMW and Honda all have adjustable "Ride Modes".  Some do more (Honda adjusts suspension firmness to coincide with ECM settings while Indian does not), but Harley does none.  Indian, BMW and Honda all have motorized windshields while Harley does not. I don't know if Indian has reverse, but Honda and BMW do.  On the plus side HD has a monster network of accessories and upgrades (probably due more to need than want) than any other manufacturer.  And their clothing line is unequaled.

Riding and owning a motorcycle is subjective, it always has been. There is no "one bike satisfies all" machine out there.  None of us speaks for the other, only for ourselves.  Now I've ridden all types of bikes, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, BMW and Harley.  However the Honda GoldWing I ride now is flat out better than any other bike I've ridden (my opinion and experience, not yours). And I have absolutely no desire to change cams, exhaust, intake, get a dyno tune and swap suspension components.

The downside is that there are fewer Honda dealerships across the nation.
The upside is that with Honda dependability I won't need one to change out a stator or compensator in the middle of a tour.

I'll stop at the HD dealership anyway, just to buy a shirt.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2022, 11:49:48 AM »

I think this thread is bike racist, I like all bikes no matter the make and it’s all in how they treat me as to how I treat them. Another thing is the gender of a bike, all mine has been female and I’ll keep it that way until I don’t. Identifying the sex of a motorcycle is a tedious process and not for the faint of heart.


I did ride to the Indian dealer today and no Pursuit in sight.

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2022, 11:54:06 AM »

I did spot one ugly Challenger.






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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2022, 12:10:12 PM »

I did spot one ugly Challenger.

Did the instrument cluster look like a Karaoke machine?,.....LOL!!!
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2022, 01:37:26 PM »

Have you rode one?  I will say the look of the inner fair is bad, I do not like it at all.  However the suspension is far better than my 19 CVO Road Glide, the bike handles better in my opinion and rides way better.  Comparing a road glide special to a Challenger, the Indian has a very slight edge on the power.  Comfort, is up to individual ride.  Stock handles bars have never worked for me on my Haleys and would not work on the challenger either.

I do have like like stock bars on the Pan America, but did add H-D two inch risers.

Harleys touring bike is extremely dated and very long in the tooth.  In needs to have a much better suspension, and to do that means a frame redesign.  22 is the 14th year Harley has used that Frame.  Every one else has a much batter frame and suspension.
Can't get past the looks of it.

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2022, 01:40:09 PM »

Some people will tie themselves in a knot to knock anything not HD.  The dash looks no different than a RG and there’s nothing wrong with the bag gaskets either.  I’d give the fit/finish edge to HD, but engine design/durability to the Indian.  And I’m speaking from experience because I’ve owned one for two years & have two buddies that own one.  So, my post is first hand info.
Some people will continue to hang out in places even though the like to bash the product of the site they're on.

I'm not an HD die hard by any means. I just refuse to even consider something that looks that hideous. Sure, the power, handling and standard features beat HD hands down. It's just an ugly ass bike. Let me know in 7 years how those gaskets are holding up.

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2022, 01:57:41 PM »

My last comment on this. I don't ride fat ugly women regardless of how well they cook and are good in bed and I'm sure as hell not going to settle for a bike that reminds me of one.

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2022, 03:05:15 PM »

My last comment on this. I don't ride fat ugly women regardless of how well they cook and are good in bed and I'm sure as hell not going to settle for a bike that reminds me of one.

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I guess we’re all relieved this is your final post on the matter. 
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2022, 03:29:19 PM »

I guess we’re all relieved this is your final post on the matter.
On that matter yes. The fact that you want to act like a fat ugly woman and get the last word in is another story.

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« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 03:35:03 PM by OBB »
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2022, 03:34:07 PM »

Did the instrument cluster look like a Karaoke machine?,.....LOL!!!

Look at the picture good and you will see where someone took various colors of rattle can paint and proceeded to have their way with it, maybe that’s trying to hide the gender. It’s looks like real patina from 50 foot, just like some women look good till ya get up close. And I did request an Elvis song from the karaoke machine, I got nothing.

I’m in pursuit of a Pursuit.




Mike, you started this chit  :pineapple:
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2022, 08:45:56 PM »

I think this thread is bike racist, I like all bikes no matter the make and it’s all in how they treat me as to how I treat them. Another thing is the gender of a bike, all mine has been female and I’ll keep it that way until I don’t. Identifying the sex of a motorcycle is a tedious process and not for the faint of heart.


Now you have me worried. I have always thought and spoke of the bike as old girl.... but what if old girl doesn't identify as old girl and I have been riding old boy? Also does the changing of parts that we all do, change old girl to old boy if we use the wrong parts? What if IT really is an IT , then what parts do we change to get old girl back?  :nixweiss:
« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 08:48:34 PM by Yellow09SERG »
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2022, 09:31:59 AM »

I did spot one ugly Challenger.


That looks like it was parked next to an sulfuric acid manufacturing facility.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2022, 01:48:05 AM »

I think this thread is bike racist, I like all bikes no matter the make and it’s all in how they treat me as to how I treat them. Another thing is the gender of a bike, all mine has been female and I’ll keep it that way until I don’t. Identifying the sex of a motorcycle is a tedious process and not for the faint of heart.


I did ride to the Indian dealer today and no Pursuit in sight.

Miss the olden days, when things were deemed as microaggressions and/or shamings.  Obviously this thread is microaggression bike shaming with institutionalized Harley supremacy supplemented by bike racisms and would be greatly improved by pie and bacon & beer.
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2022, 07:26:44 AM »

I get confused here whether it is on the authors' side or reader interpretation, the bikes get confused too. I know some say that bikes are nothing but nuts and bolts but Harleys have soul, another racist thought.   

Coming soon to the showroom will be a Kyle Wyman Race Glide with 131, Ohlin suspension, carbon fiber body parts and street legal, infotainment system optional.

I like bacon and beer, have cut pie off my menu so I can get my 50yr old body back.  :drink:

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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2022, 09:20:27 AM »

Went back & read the "17 Reasons" listed in the article in the first post in this thread.  Oddly, or not oddly, Indian is not mentioned by name as a reason.  It could be considered a part of a reason - #6 for example - yet the existence of Polaris - also not mentioned - is not a primary subject of the article.

Most all products have competition.  Except Oreos, which have a weak sort of competition but it's not really competition because - Oreos. Harley's problems are internal more than external was the subject of what I read. If Harley does not do what they need to do as a company, yes their competition will eat their lunch, to use a time honored technical financial analytical term.  But the reason for that, since Harley has been a market leader for a long time in their dominant category, is Harley itself.  If Harley was doing or had been doing what was needed to be done, the emergence of Indian would be akin to a gnat on an elephant's back instead of Indian eating a big chunk of Harley's lunch.

As to arguing the finer points of loving Indians or loving to hate Indians or such - some like 'em, some don't.  Indians have their own sets of problems - have several friends who own them - so they are not problem free.  Harley decided long ago to be more of a follower & not a leader in the MC industry.  Other brands innovate while Harley sits back & waits to perceive the difference between a verifiable MC trend vs a fad, and then they copy something, sometimes badly.  Other motor companies do the same, it's a strategy.  Harley is more more behind than they should be on tech & unless they change their strategy they will end up further behind IMHO.



I like your answer ... I must tell you that here in Italy there is a much better biscuit than oreo, it's called ringo

you can see it here:
https://www.ringo.it/storia/

going back to motorcycles, I would have already bought a motorcycle of another brand, but, to be honest, I have not found one more beautiful than Harley CVOs, beautiful from the outside and unfortunately technically old.
What really pisses me off is MOCO's behavior with European customers, they don't have the bikes to test, they want me to order them six months in advance and you never know when they will arrive.
Basically an act of faith, or a blackmail to which I do not want to yield ..
out there though, I don't see a more beautiful bike than the CVO street glide or CVO road glide ...
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Re: 17 Shady Reasons Why Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Are Struggling
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2022, 10:51:43 AM »



I like your answer ... I must tell you that here in Italy there is a much better biscuit than oreo, it's called ringo

you can see it here:
https://www.ringo.it/storia/

going back to motorcycles, I would have already bought a motorcycle of another brand, but, to be honest, I have not found one more beautiful than Harley CVOs, beautiful from the outside and unfortunately technically old.
What really pisses me off is MOCO's behavior with European customers, they don't have the bikes to test, they want me to order them six months in advance and you never know when they will arrive.
Basically an act of faith, or a blackmail to which I do not want to yield ..
out there though, I don't see a more beautiful bike than the CVO street glide or CVO road glide ...

Thanks for the information on Ringo.  Will be in Italy later this year & will look forward to tasting them.

Agree on the styling of CVO's - best looking bike from a style standpoint by far. Tech on these bikes is dated and that is a marketing strategy HD adopted a long time back.  Reminds me of some of the classically styled cars that were so beautiful but the companies went out of business because they did not keep up on other features or priced themselves out of the market. 

Have heard similar from other HD buyers located in Europe - long wait times, limited or no test bikes.  Saw a lot of motorcycles on our last trip to Europe but very, very few Harleys. 
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