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Author Topic: 110" CVO Softail Build  (Read 43346 times)

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Lever

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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2013, 06:49:09 AM »

looks great
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2010 CVO Convertible  crimson red sunglo/Autumn Haze with Metal Grind Graphics
2014 113  motor 10.8 compression
SAE smoothing #5  125.7 hp / 122.9 tq
2017 Road King M8
stage IV

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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2013, 05:00:37 PM »

Not surprised by the findings of imperfect fitment after the coating is added, but I don't quite understand why it was a problem.   Swain prefers to get the heads un-assembled and without a valve job done so they can put the coating on which is about .002 thick, they then tell you to do the valve job and lap the valves.   If you do not do it this way and send them the heads and they do the coatings its SOP to pull the valves and lap them for fitment.  In either case there is a procedure to follow.   The real question is whether there was a concentric issue prior to having the coatings done, won't know now cause they have been lapped.    Other question is why not go back to the original porter vs sending them Lozano brothers?

Bike looks great, have been interested in the buds cooling system, but haven't seen a lot of reports on them with worked engines, looking forward to your reports on the motor/build and the accessories you have added.
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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2013, 08:55:25 PM »

Other question is why not go back to the original porter vs sending them Lozano

I originally wanted to use a local porter, but I didn't find anyone that I thought as reputable. Also, Scott is a great guy and does good work. I have realized that any future builds I will want to put greater attention to detail, and I think Lazano Brothers can deliver what I will be looking for jn the future. It does come with a very healthy price tag though.
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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2013, 12:03:14 AM »

So, I couldn't get this fired up.  I found out that the S&S rocker arms needed the rocker box covers clearanced, and I didn't do that.  I checked the compression and I had about ~20 psi.  I took off the rocker arm covers off, and the rear cylinder had 210 ccp. I ground the covers down, so hopefully tomorrow I will get it fired up.





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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2013, 03:04:39 PM »

She's running!  I also put a set of Lyndall Gold pads on to help stop her when I get her on the road.




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HILLSIDECYCLE.COM

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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2013, 06:32:55 AM »

I'll bet it has a healthy exhaust note!
Scott
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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2013, 06:09:53 PM »

This morning the bike was on the dyno.  Mike quickly realized that the bike had TONS of detonation everywhere.  At 20-30% throttle @ 3,000 rpm, 15+ degrees of timing in the table and the ECM was still was pulling timing.  Mike didn't think it was the compression that caused the detonation.  The motor is coming back apart and I'm going to remove the ceramic coatings.  The bike also wouldn't make power (partially because timing, partially because of running lean), however, Mike thinks it is partially because the flow coating won't let the fuel droplets bend the way it needs to around the short side radius of the port (this is what LBP found back in the 70/80's when the teflon coating first came out).  After the coatings are removed, Lozano Brothers will be flowing the heads, and seeing if a bigger valve can be put in the heads without re-doing the valves seats.  If this is the biggest valve on the stock seat, they will be cleaning the ports up and putting a new valve job in it.  Mike said on his dyno, if a Softail breaks 120 on the dyno, it's a ripper.  Today, with a VERY rough tune, AFR's around 14.5 up top and 15+ degrees of timing pulled, the bike made 101 hp.

Well...I just learned one way that doesn't work.  Just want to share the progress.
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HD Street Performance

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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2013, 06:26:22 PM »

Without sounding disrespectful I am not surprised. My limited experience with coating has been positive when trying to add an anti-wear barrier. Other attempts with heat retention or barriers has flopped. Same identical results as yours.
I don't blame the barriers I just think the mechanical compression needs to be lowered when the barriers are used. I never went that far and just bagged the experiment similar to what you are doing. Consider the car world and the mechanical compression used with cast iron heads VS aluminum. Same scenario.
As far as piston coatings, anti-wear on the skirts. Consider that a get out of jail free once card. Get the motor too hot, a little buffer before it folds. Modern cam and barrel ground skirts have an oil retention finish that does a good job of protecting the skirts when the clearance is right (bored to exact size specified by manufacturer).
All of these are just my opinions and based on limited experience on the particular topic.
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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2013, 09:50:19 PM »

This morning the bike was on the dyno.  Mike quickly realized that the bike had TONS of detonation everywhere.  At 20-30% throttle @ 3,000 rpm, 15+ degrees of timing in the table and the ECM was still was pulling timing.  Mike didn't think it was the compression that caused the detonation.  The motor is coming back apart and I'm going to remove the ceramic coatings.  The bike also wouldn't make power (partially because timing, partially because of running lean), however, Mike thinks it is partially because the flow coating won't let the fuel droplets bend the way it needs to around the short side radius of the port (this is what LBP found back in the 70/80's when the teflon coating first came out).  After the coatings are removed, Lozano Brothers will be flowing the heads, and seeing if a bigger valve can be put in the heads without re-doing the valves seats.  If this is the biggest valve on the stock seat, they will be cleaning the ports up and putting a new valve job in it.  Mike said on his dyno, if a Softail breaks 120 on the dyno, it's a ripper.  Today, with a VERY rough tune, AFR's around 14.5 up top and 15+ degrees of timing pulled, the bike made 101 hp.

Well...I just learned one way that doesn't work.  Just want to share the progress.
Thanks for the update sorry its such a painful process.   I wish it wasn't so expensive and time consumptive to remove the coating and retry the heads before reworking them to rule out the coating as many shops and race teams and such are now using the coatings.  At least then you would know what to blame the issues on and what not to.   Coating or not wouldn't be the first heads that have these issues either.   Hopefully LB will help get you going.   
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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2013, 10:15:18 PM »

I don't blame the barriers I just think the mechanical compression needs to be lowered when the barriers are used.

Yeah, Mike said about the same thing.  He said there might be merit in the ceramic coatings to help with power by keeping the heat in, but with high compression motors, they need to get rid of the heat.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 10:17:16 PM by 11 CVO Convertible »
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HD Street Performance

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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2013, 12:19:25 AM »

This is a thread which contains some factual, first hand experience, and vendor commentary.
Pay particular attention to post 11 on page 3 by a fella named Darin Morgan
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1050&start=30
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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2013, 09:51:09 AM »

Darin Morgan says that coating do work and they use them.  So I just picked a bad vendor to do the coatings and Polydyn has a better ceramic coating?
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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2013, 10:32:50 AM »

I don't know if Polydyne is the answer and Swain is not. One customer of mine made good power with a 107 that had all the Swain coatings just like yours. 124/120 with reasonable compression and a perfect tune.
An endorsement from Darin Morgan is one I would take with confidence. He is a true experienced professional. That said he is basically saying the same thing the dry film lubricants are beneficial and the ceramic piston coating may be beneficial but minimal. Plus his area of expertise and the context is high end water cooled V8s.

I am not sure throwing the baby out with the bath water is necessary. Just get the CR down a little, work with a tuner that can optimize your combination. The Delphi does an erratic hack and slash of timing and sometimes falsely. This can amount to momentary 12-15°+ in timing pulled then back to normal. There is no chance to make power when that is going on. So for testing purposes you can have the tuner toggle off Ion Sensing and then work the timing tables. Another trick is to limit the amount the Delphi can pull like 2 or 3 degrees and leave the ion sensing on.
On Polydynes page they suggest "less timing, more fuel". Personally I have limited experience and I would call Swain or Polydyne for more information. I know Swain does have quite a bit of HD experience as they are right in the same neighborhood as Dan Baisley, another very sharp man.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 10:36:17 AM by Deweysheads »
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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2013, 02:34:55 PM »

If you eliminate the coating that leaves you with the heads  :nixweiss:   If it is the heads, hope there is enough there for the Lozano Brothers to correct the heads if that turns out to be the case.   
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Re: 110" CVO Softail Build
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2013, 03:52:08 PM »

Before I tore the motor down, I did a compression check.  The rear cylinder had 215 psi and the front had 115 psi.  I took off the exhaust and cranked the motor.  You could hear and feel the air bypassing the exhaust valve on the compression stroke.  I guess the front exhaust valve never was seated properly.  Most likely, the coatings screwed me again.

Either way, the heads, cylinders and pistons are in good hands.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 05:43:38 PM by 11 CVO Convertible »
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