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[iski]

Thanks for giving me some cover iski. It just never ceases to amaze me how people can look at similar situations so completely differently.

I grew-up racing bikes in the dirt and blew up a lot of engines from many different manufacturers. The first one my dad helped me with. The next time (age 12) he said “If you can tear it apart, you can put it back together.” I did and all the rest were on me. Go figure but the same thing was repeated for my first car. I was fortunate enough to get a 69 SS 396. Almost the first day taking it to school I did a burnout dropping my brother off and it started knocking. It had 12.5 aluminum pistons that I did not warm up well enough.  My dad helped me with that one and the next four engines were on me. Of course I never even considered that any of the bikes or the car were a POS.

I had more fun racing and riding those bikes and driving that car than almost anything else! Riding these bikes on the street are not that much fun, but that is why I ride them… for fun. Why keep one that makes you miserable? Cheers.

Your post made a lot of sense.  Plus it was a contrarian idea to what generally passes for PC around here most days.  I blew up dirt bike engines, raced cars, same deal.  Maybe since we have both broken stuff, more than less on purpose sometimes, we understand a little better on some things.  Maybe not, but seems so.

I had a bad experience with an 07 HD.  A lot of others did as well.  Know of some that had no issues on the 07s.  Have had bad experiences with some cars, but instead of dissing the whole company usually figured was just a bad model.  Have bought Fords, Chevys, Dodges, Chryslers through the years.  Know some who SWEAR that __________brand is worthless junk.  Never found that to be the case myself, depended on the model & some of them were bum steers.

HD continues.  Critics will as well.  Some will never buy another one.  That's the way it is with manufactured products, not limited to HD by any means.

[Para Bellum]

I grew-up racing bikes in the dirt and blew up a lot of engines from many different manufacturers.

(SS 396 Camaro) had 12.5 aluminum pistons that I did not warm up well enough.  the next four engines were on me.

You're comparing apples to oranges.  Racing and hot-dogging will break things.  We're talking about street touring, with multiple failures of the same cheaply-made components, in normal use.

From a common-sense standpoint, if one bike has a lifter failure, it's an unusual occurrence that makes no statement about overall quality.  If 20% of them have failures, it tells you something.  You can ignore multiple reports of failure and base your opinion on one good example, but the facts are still there.

I hope you don't go through the bad experiences some have had, but...will your opinion remain the same if you do?

Personally, I replace lifters early and often after having 2 failures.     And I'm going to form and express my opinion based on the overall facts I see.  YMMV

[iski]

You're comparing apples to oranges.  Racing and hot-dogging will break things.  We're talking about street touring, with multiple failures of the same cheaply-made components, in normal use.

From a common-sense standpoint, if one bike has a lifter failure, it's an unusual occurrence that makes no statement about overall quality.  If 20% of them have failures, it tells you something.  You can ignore multiple reports of failure and base your opinion on one good example, but the facts are still there.

I hope you don't go through the bad experiences some have had, but...will your opinion remain the same if you do?

Personally, I replace lifters early and often after having 2 failures.     And I'm going to form and express my opinion based on the overall facts I see.  YMMV

I posted several times already, in this thread, about issues I had with a 2007 SE Ultra. Yes, I had bad experiences with that bike, to the point of where it was unreliable for taking trips.  Yes, my opinion is the same now after that.  On the other Harleys I have owned have had some issues, but nothing like the 07 and all in all were/are good bikes except for that one.

Have been riding MCs for only 48 years, so realize my motorcycle experience is limited.  Have had other brands besides HD, each one had it's problems.  Some minor some severe, not related to racing.  Lifter failures on the 110's are well documented, I replaced stock lifters on mine, no problems after, and they had not failed.  Compensator issues are also well documented.  Have had friends riding Harleys long before I ever thought about owning one.  Through the years, Harley has had some problems no doubt going way back.

Your opinion differs from mine, do not see any problem with that from here.

[longlast]

Just to through in my two cents, I've been a Harley lover since my younger days had three back in the day of the 70s the last one in 82 was an Electra Glide that I sold ( got married) . After a 35+ yr gap and not keeping up with HD's progress I'm finding not much has changed the bike still needs doctoring maybe a little bit more than the old days.
As we all know quality of things today are substandard compaired to yesterday's

At the end of the day and after throwing our toys out of the pram on this fault and that failure we'll still buy, repair and ride our beloved Harley Davidsons.
Some have had a go of the cost for what they get. Well,. I maybe wrong, I think there's a good chunk of the cost is buying the Harley Davidson name.
I can't see were the cost of 30/45k goes I can say as far as my bike goes I truly know that with only 18k on it I've spent just under 2k on repairs more if it was done in a shopI think, no I know, the chroming is substandard I have chrome issues popping up all over and I have been sticky on cleaning on a regular basis.
Never had chrome issues with the older bikes.
But never the less I for one will continue to ride repair rant and defend my beloved Harley Davidson

[HighOnHD]

You're comparing apples to oranges.  Racing and hot-dogging will break things.  We're talking about street touring, with multiple failures of the same cheaply-made components, in normal use.

From a common-sense standpoint, if one bike has a lifter failure, it's an unusual occurrence that makes no statement about overall quality.  If 20% of them have failures, it tells you something.  You can ignore multiple reports of failure and base your opinion on one good example, but the facts are still there.

I hope you don't go through the bad experiences some have had, but...will your opinion remain the same if you do?

Personally, I replace lifters early and often after having 2 failures.     And I'm going to form and express my opinion based on the overall facts I see.  YMMV

Well some people hear what they want to hear these days and seem to be able to just twist what anyone says into whatever they want. I can’t control that… as iski wisely pointed out in a response to me. See iski, I actually listened to what you were saying and not what I wanted to hear (summarizing a portion of what you said).

So I will break my last post down. If you read my last post (in an open minded fashion) you may discover that I was actually saying (in summary) that it amazes me how I can blow up over many years time enumerable engines, and consider it some of the most fun I ever had. While others can do the same and be completely miserable about it. Now mind you this is in the context of TOYS!!!! Maybe I am wrong, but I think that is what we are talking about here. Toys.

Secondly. Implicitly in my last post I was trying to get across the concept that it actually matters who is straddling (or driving) the vehicle! If anyone thinks that it does not matter how the vehicle is driven, and that it does not have any implication as to longevity, and reliability of the vehicle… well again I can’t control that type of thinking either.

Finally I guess I would challenge your statement where you tried to imply that 20% of the lifters in these bikes are failing and therefore (as has been so thoroughly described on this forum) destroying the engines. Where is your proof of that so called fact? Also, I did not base my opinion on “one good example.” I proposed that if the situation was as severe as implied by the “silver back chest beaters” that there is no way the extended warranty company could survive such a level of failure. Do you also believe that MoCo could survive with 20% of their finest motorcycles ending up with exploding engines happening somewhere around 20k miles? Also, as I recall I purchased 5 extra years of extended coverage for $2100. I’m not a statistician, but off hand what does it cost to repair one of these in this circumstance? $5000 or so? I would think that over 5 years 20K miles can roll around several times, right? It just does not pass the sniff test that the warranty company could stay in business under those circumstances. So while I am waiting on your 20% proof, I will also wonder about the “cheaply-made components” statement. The person straddling the bike can easily start up the bike and before it is warmed up (kind of sound familiar) over rev the engine and RUIN parts. Does that mean those parts are cheaply made? Do you have proof on how TINY a percentage this situation represents?

[HighOnHD]

Keeping it real… So finally after around 34K miles the motor has had enough. Thankfully it occurred post my trip to Milwaukee a few weeks ago. I left to take a short ride after work and about a mile up the road the sudden top end clatter raised it’s ugly head and rather than fading away as the engine warmed to operating temperature it decided to stick around through all RPM ranges ( idle and on up). So I called off the ride, turned around and eased back home. Since I planned on this all along (as in paid up front for the extended warranty, and bought the Fullsac header and TTS tuner) I returned the exhaust and tune to stock and called the out of state dealer I bought it from. They came about 40 miles and picked it up. At this point I know they removed the exhaust and peeked in the port to see a stuck valve and are calling to get approval to go from here.

I have done my due diligence at this point, and now the wife and I are heading to the coast for the weekend. Such is life. Looking forward to getting it back so that I can ride the hell out of it for hopefully another 34K! I will miss it in the mean time.

Do I blame Moco? Nope. Do I think badly of my bike? Nope. Do I still think it is a bad a$$ bike? Yep! Love it. You have to pay to play. If you are not prepared for that don't even go there. JMHO.

Cheers.

[FLSTFI Dave]

Keeping it real… So finally after around 34K miles the motor has had enough. Thankfully it occurred post my trip to Milwaukee a few weeks ago. I left to take a short ride after work and about a mile up the road the sudden top end clatter raised it’s ugly head and rather than fading away as the engine warmed to operating temperature it decided to stick around through all RPM ranges ( idle and on up). So I called off the ride, turned around and eased back home. Since I planned on this all along (as in paid up front for the extended warranty, and bought the Fullsac header and TTS tuner) I returned the exhaust and tune to stock and called the out of state dealer I bought it from. They came about 40 miles and picked it up. At this point I know they removed the exhaust and peeked in the port to see a stuck valve and are calling to get approval to go from here.

I have done my due diligence at this point, and now the wife and I are heading to the coast for the weekend. Such is life. Looking forward to getting it back so that I can ride the hell out of it for hopefully another 34K! I will miss it in the mean time.

Do I blame Moco? Nope. Do I think badly of my bike? Nope. Do I still think it is a bad a$$ bike? Yep! Love it. You have to pay to play. If you are not prepared for that don't even go there. JMHO.

Cheers.

Wow, so how would you feel if this was a car or pick that had this failure at 34K miles?

I do blame the MoCo.  They know full well their is a major issue with the valve spring pressure on the 110 motor lifters causing failure.  They just figure most people will never have it happen under warranty.  So they do have to pay to fix it. 

I have had two 110's with Lifter failure, both under factory warranty.  The last was at 44K miles, and HD replaced the whole engine.  My 13 SERK has not had issues, and most likely will not.  I have much better lifters and valve springs in it to prevent this.

So I do blame Harley, but I still keep buying and riding them.

[HighOnHD]

Wow, so how would you feel if this was a car or pick that had this failure at 34K miles?

I do blame the MoCo.  They know full well their is a major issue with the valve spring pressure on the 110 motor lifters causing failure.  They just figure most people will never have it happen under warranty.  So they do have to pay to fix it. 

I have had two 110's with Lifter failure, both under factory warranty.  The last was at 44K miles, and HD replaced the whole engine.  My 13 SERK has not had issues, and most likely will not.  I have much better lifters and valve springs in it to prevent this.

So I do blame Harley, but I still keep buying and riding them.

Hi Dave. I drive my car for commuting, and I don't drive it anything like I ride my bike. I would find it disingenuous for most of us to say we just mildly go through the gears on these bikes like most do while driving their cars. At least I know I like to "get on" my bike quite often on every ride. That is part of the fun for me. I DO NOT do that for my car. Big difference in mechanical stress between the two circumstances. JMHO

[HighOnHD]

I guess my main point in all this is that I bought my bike with eyes wide open. I did not have my head stuck in the sand and I knew what I was getting into. Knowing this how can I be upset with either Moco or my bike when it does exactly what I expected it to do. If I WERE to be upset it would have to be with MYSELF. As I said before, I love my toy. It's fun for me. I'm also covered. I planned it that way. In advance. Why do others who also know full well in advance what they are getting into "piss and moan" day in and day out over the same situation???

[FLSTFI Dave]

Hi Dave. I drive my car for commuting, and I don't drive it anything like I ride my bike. I would find it disingenuous for most of us to say we just mildly go through the gears on these bikes like most do while driving their cars. At least I know I like to "get on" my bike quite often on every ride. That is part of the fun for me. I DO NOT do that for my car. Big difference in mechanical stress between the two circumstances. JMHO

Well, my car is a 14 Stingray with a manual transmission.  I rest assure you, I stress the car engine and drive train much much harder than I do my main bike.   Chevy trusts their motor and drive train so much, my warranty is still valid even with Race Track use.  Yes, I can race my car, and if anything fails it is covered.  My car has launch control, if I launched a Harley like that it would come apart.

The Harleys I have had with lifter failure have all be stock except the exhaust system.  They were not raced, not beat on, not abused.  They were my traveling bikes, that saw 22K or more a year miles.  I have a bike I use when I want to run through the gears, or get on it hard.  Its a 13 CVO King with a very built motor.  It has not had failure.  The reason is, I have better lifters in it, I have better valve springs in it, I have better cam bearings and so on. 

So I have a bike to ride hard.  Again, the bikes with failures are never beat.

Most would never accept a car that did not last 100K miles.  So why is it ok when a Harley fails at 21K like a friends 14 CVO, or 35K like yours or 44K like my last 110 bike?  Just read the forum, many have failures, and most accept it.

Had Harley not replaced the motor in my 15 SERGU that failed, I would not be on a New Harley.

[SDCVO]

My son bought his first car after working his butt off for years playing professional football in Europe (making very little money..) and then coming home and getting a law degree, passing the bar and working 80 hour weeks for 6 months to afford it. He leased a BMW 440I and spent the first month doing mods to it almost like a Harley (wheels, carbon fiber monikers, blacked out tail lights, etc) and at about 3000 miles a fuel injector stuck open and hydro locked the motor completely trashing it. That was on June 15th and he jut found out today that the dealer finally received the replacement motor and it should be completed by the end of next week. Being it has been months that he has been without his car and way past the time frame the manufacturer legally has to repair it without being forced to buy it back they have provided him a alternate car and made his lease payment but of course he is completely bummed out that he does not have his "dream car" but been driving a loaner car for months.
After all this if you ask him what's next car will be he will still say it will be a BMW and there is nothing else he will even consider.
I guess even when it comes to "self flagellation" the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

[CHH_Badkarma]

He did all that to a leased car?

and I missing something or isn't that like remodeling a rental apartment?

I car you got a loan and and intend to pay off I can understand, but a lease?

idk, maybe I just don't know how those work.

[KGB]

My son bought his first car after working his butt off for years playing professional football in Europe (making very little money..) and then coming home and getting a law degree, passing the bar and working 80 hour weeks for 6 months to afford it. He leased a BMW 440I and spent the first month doing mods to it almost like a Harley (wheels, carbon fiber monikers, blacked out tail lights, etc) and at about 3000 miles a fuel injector stuck open and hydro locked the motor completely trashing it. That was on June 15th and he jut found out today that the dealer finally received the replacement motor and it should be completed by the end of next week. Being it has been months that he has been without his car and way past the time frame the manufacturer legally has to repair it without being forced to buy it back they have provided him a alternate car and made his lease payment but of course he is completely bummed out that he does not have his "dream car" but been driving a loaner car for months.
After all this if you ask him what's next car will be he will still say it will be a BMW and there is nothing else he will even consider.
I guess even when it comes to "self flagellation" the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

I'm guessing the engine was back ordered, not only will they pay all lease payments, but he should be able to get a couple of grand for his troubles or some more accessories , also it wont hurt to remind the service manager what your sons profession is

[HighOnHD]

Well, my car is a 14 Stingray with a manual transmission.  I rest assure you, I stress the car engine and drive train much much harder than I do my main bike.   Chevy trusts their motor and drive train so much, my warranty is still valid even with Race Track use.  Yes, I can race my car, and if anything fails it is covered.  My car has launch control, if I launched a Harley like that it would come apart.

The Harleys I have had with lifter failure have all be stock except the exhaust system.  They were not raced, not beat on, not abused.  They were my traveling bikes, that saw 22K or more a year miles.  I have a bike I use when I want to run through the gears, or get on it hard.  Its a 13 CVO King with a very built motor.  It has not had failure.  The reason is, I have better lifters in it, I have better valve springs in it, I have better cam bearings and so on. 

So I have a bike to ride hard.  Again, the bikes with failures are never beat.

Most would never accept a car that did not last 100K miles.  So why is it ok when a Harley fails at 21K like a friends 14 CVO, or 35K like yours or 44K like my last 110 bike?  Just read the forum, many have failures, and most accept it.

Had Harley not replaced the motor in my 15 SERGU that failed, I would not be on a New Harley.

Well when they finish my bike I will go get it and happily pay the $50 deductible and enjoy it some more! Hey! Why don't you let me drive that Stingray for 35K strictly fun-filled miles like I put on my bike?

[SDCVO]

I'm guessing the engine was back ordered, not only will they pay all lease payments, but he should be able to get a couple of grand for his troubles or some more accessories , also it wont hurt to remind the service manager what your sons profession is

They did make an extra 3 payments which is good but still it has been a complete PIA for him!