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[grc]

Jerry,

The TMAX retails for $485.00, TMAX with AT retails for $865.95.  Not sure where you are saving $800.00 over a PCIII or SERT.

Your previous post makes it clear that you would not choose the TMAX, but I remain curious as to whether you have any first hand experience with the product?

Regards,
John

John,

The $800 savings I mentioned is due to the fact I already have the PCIII, so buying the TM-AT would be an additional $800.  And yes, I purchased a TMax in 2006, an experience in utter frustration.  As I explained to JK at the time, the bike ran better with a cheap DFO unit than it did with the TMax.  Without boring you with all the details, suffice it to say that after trying all the various "tweaks" he eventually suggested (answers were extremely slow to come by), I returned the unit and went another direction (PCIII).  One of his excuses was that there was a large amount of variation in H-D throttle bodies that could throw off their mapping.  Yes, that is why no canned map is optimum for every seemingly identical bike, but it doesn't keep the bike from starting properly or make it run so rich you can smell raw fuel.  And those same TB/injectors/sensors/etc. ran fine with the DFO and later with the PCIII.

The premise of the TM and TM-AT may be excellent (I still think the software needs to be more like the SERT or Daytona Twin-Tech), but from what I have personally seen and heard the implementation has been pretty poor so far.  At least the Daytona folks are up front with their claims and let you know you will have to go into the software and correct base settings where the correction factors are too high (the intent is to keep the correction table values as small as possible, as is true with any closed loop system).  Zipper's, on the other hand, still tries to make people believe this is a plug and play, no effort required system, and only offers up the truth about the need to manually tune the bike after you've spent the bucks.  Not acceptable in my humble opinion.


I'm not trying to be difficult, or to suggest that the TM or TM-AT is junk.  I just think everyone deserves to know up front that the claims are highly exaggerated and should at least come with one of those standard CYA disclaimers, such as "Your results may vary".  

Jerry

[jfh]

John,

The $800 savings I mentioned is due to the fact I already have the PCIII, so buying the TM-AT would be an additional $800.  And yes, I purchased a TMax in 2006, an experience in utter frustration.  As I explained to JK at the time, the bike ran better with a cheap DFO unit than it did with the TMax.  Without boring you with all the details, suffice it to say that after trying all the various "tweaks" he eventually suggested (answers were extremely slow to come by), I returned the unit and went another direction (PCIII).  One of his excuses was that there was a large amount of variation in H-D throttle bodies that could throw off their mapping.  Yes, that is why no canned map is optimum for every seemingly identical bike, but it doesn't keep the bike from starting properly or make it run so rich you can smell raw fuel.  And those same TB/injectors/sensors/etc. ran fine with the DFO and later with the PCIII.

The premise of the TM and TM-AT may be excellent (I still think the software needs to be more like the SERT or Daytona Twin-Tech), but from what I have personally seen and heard the implementation has been pretty poor so far.  At least the Daytona folks are up front with their claims and let you know you will have to go into the software and correct base settings where the correction factors are too high (the intent is to keep the correction table values as small as possible, as is true with any closed loop system).  Zipper's, on the other hand, still tries to make people believe this is a plug and play, no effort required system, and only offers up the truth about the need to manually tune the bike after you've spent the bucks.  Not acceptable in my humble opinion.


I'm not trying to be difficult, or to suggest that the TM or TM-AT is junk.  I just think everyone deserves to know up front that the claims are highly exaggerated and should at least come with one of those standard CYA disclaimers, such as "Your results may vary".  

Jerry

Jerry,

Thanks for the additional information. You offer a reasonable assessment based on your experience with the product and the vendor.

Regards,
John

[Twolanerider]

Jerry,

Thanks for the additional information. You offer a reasonable assessment based on your experience with the product and the vendor.

Regards,
John

John,
Please understand I'm not knocking pride and/or devotion to a product that has done someone a good job.  But in a couple of cases know there have been witnessed a slightly amusing but nearly religious fervor in defending Zippers and their products when others have had an issue.

In my case I bought it and a fair bit of other stuff from them.  Had trouble.  Suffered everything from lacks of response to slow response to eventually no response again.  Said all along that I envied those that had had a much better experience.  Just that my own had been eerily similar to Jerry's (with other painful facets thrown in).

Really, especially among this group of people I'm always happy if someone has gotten something that has done them well and they are pleased with it.  But when the reverse is true the response shouldn't be accusatory defamation (as one of our brethren did an entertaininly poor job of tossing out previously).  Instead just a "damn, glad mine's great but sorry to see you're having trouble with it" would be a much more palatable response.

What I'm getting it is this; what is it about the company or product that brings such zealous appreciation?  Appreciation such that other's who do have difficulty are met question and even denial rather than with friendly support that should be part of the community?

[jfh]

John,
Please understand I'm not knocking pride and/or devotion to a product that has done someone a good job.  But in a couple of cases know there have been witnessed a slightly amusing but nearly religious fervor in defending Zippers and their products when others have had an issue.

In my case I bought it and a fair bit of other stuff from them.  Had trouble.  Suffered everything from lacks of response to slow response to eventually no response again.  Said all along that I envied those that had had a much better experience.  Just that my own had been eerily similar to Jerry's (with other painful facets thrown in).

Really, especially among this group of people I'm always happy if someone has gotten something that has done them well and they are pleased with it.  But when the reverse is true the response shouldn't be accusatory defamation (as one of our brethren did an entertaininly poor job of tossing out previously).  Instead just a "damn, glad mine's great but sorry to see you're having trouble with it" would be a much more palatable response.

What I'm getting it is this; what is it about the company or product that brings such zealous appreciation?  Appreciation such that other's who do have difficulty are met question and even denial rather than with friendly support that should be part of the community?

Don,

I agree without question that the TMax AT has not delivered the plug 'n' play performance that is advertised and that some folks have had an extremely difficult time receiving a reasonable level of support form Zippers.  I am not defending that aspect of their business and wish everyone received the same level of support and cooperation from them that I have over the past ten years.  As I stated earlier in other posts, if I did not live close to Zippers, I would have chosen a different tuner and used what ever tuning product they recommended. 

Many users, including me, can attest to the fact that the TMax AT has not proven to be plug 'n' play for many applications. I think that continued development will improve the AT aspect of the product, but doubt it will ever fully deliver a fire and forget system.  Having said that, I think that the basic TMax is one of the most powerful tuning devices available on the market today which is why I continue to use it.  Joe, who is tuning Hoist's bike is a very notable tuner who also recommends it.

I use the product because it works for me.  I use Zippers because my personal experiences with them have always been favorable. 

I agree with you that this forum should provide a friendly venue to share information and help solve mechanical and technical challenges rather than provoke personal attacks and accusations.  I attribute the latter to the human emotion aspect of the individuals involved rather than the product they are attacking or defending.

Regards,
John

[Twolanerider]

Joe, who is tuning Hoist's bike is a very notable tuner who also recommends it.

Thanks again for the insights John.  Appreciated as always.  It would be an easier package to digest if there were more tuners scattered about the country who knew it and used it well.  Not having that available is certainly a handicap.

Howie and I were talking again this evening and the man doing his tuning was again part of the conversation.  Good words about the product (sans the autotune function) from an apparently superb tuner.

Most pleased that you and others are getting good service from the product and you like how it works.  I still admire what the capabilities seem to be.  Just didn't have any enough luck getting from second base to home.

[SneakyPete]

I am leaving Wednesday for Sturgis and then on to Yellowstone.  It will be a great opportunity to see how the TMAT functions from sea level to 11K ft (Beartooth Pass).  At present motor still runs great, no issues at all with temps near 100 degrees and high humidity.  I will report out when I return on the 14th as well as share some pics of the trip!

[jfh]

I am leaving Wednesday for Sturgis and then on to Yellowstone.  It will be a great opportunity to see how the TMAT functions from sea level to 11K ft (Beartooth Pass).  At present motor still runs great, no issues at all with temps near 100 degrees and high humidity.  I will report out when I return on the 14th as well as share some pics of the trip!

Pete,

Are you running the AT now?  Have a great trip.
-John

[Twolanerider]

I am leaving Wednesday for Sturgis and then on to Yellowstone.  It will be a great opportunity to see how the TMAT functions from sea level to 11K ft (Beartooth Pass).  At present motor still runs great, no issues at all with temps near 100 degrees and high humidity.  I will report out when I return on the 14th as well as share some pics of the trip!

Will look forward to the hardware report and the pics Pete.  Have a great time!

[SneakyPete]

Pete,

Are you running the AT now?  Have a great trip.
-John

No I am not.  I'm very satisfied with open loop operation and I am curious how the bike will run at high altitude (as compared to local riding).  Right now I don't want to mess with a good thing.

[Hoist!]

I don't use either, but if you want Autotuning, talk to Steve at GMR about the new DTT. I hear it blows the TMAT away.! Hoist!

[Talon]

What's the DTT? 

[Chief]

What's the DTT? 

DTT is the Daytona Twin Tec

[Deuce Bigelow]

I don't use either, but if you want Autotuning, talk to Steve at GMR about the new DTT. I hear it blows the TMAT away.! Hoist!

unless they totally redesigned the TCFI 2, it's the same as the Tmax, only difference is you have a seperate "autotune" module (WEGO IID) with the TCFI 2, very similar to the "old" style Tmax.

and DTT's software is not as nice as the Tmax......

not trying to offend anyone, It's just my opinion.......

[Hoist!]

unless they totally redesigned the TCFI 2, it's the same as the Tmax, only difference is you have a seperate "autotune" module (WEGO IID) with the TCFI 2, very similar to the "old" style Tmax.

and DTT's software is not as nice as the Tmax......

not trying to offend anyone, It's just my opinion.......

DTT 3 Hoist!

[DCFIREMANN]

John,
Please understand I'm not knocking pride and/or devotion to a product that has done someone a good job.  But in a couple of cases know there have been witnessed a slightly amusing but nearly religious fervor in defending Zippers and their products when others have had an issue.

In my case I bought it and a fair bit of other stuff from them.  Had trouble.  Suffered everything from lacks of response to slow response to eventually no response again.  Said all along that I envied those that had had a much better experience.  Just that my own had been eerily similar to Jerry's (with other painful facets thrown in).

Really, especially among this group of people I'm always happy if someone has gotten something that has done them well and they are pleased with it.  But when the reverse is true the response shouldn't be accusatory defamation (as one of our brethren did an entertaininly poor job of tossing out previously).  Instead just a "damn, glad mine's great but sorry to see you're having trouble with it" would be a much more palatable response.

What I'm getting it is this; what is it about the company or product that brings such zealous appreciation?  Appreciation such that other's who do have difficulty are met question and even denial rather than with friendly support that should be part of the community?

Don I know I am one of the die hard Zippers fans on the board. I also know I push the product hard. It has worked for me. Right now I guess I am very lucky that I choose not to add the AT to my bike when it was picked up. I have low numbers 126/126 for my build and I have never got the final tune. I have to tell you my bike runs great ALL OF THE TIME! No ping at all and I even dusted a big dog with a 117 on it and I had a passenger to boot just last weekend. Yes ole Punkin impressed a lot of people last weekend(even me).

I am sorry that any one has problems with Zippers since I was the one who brought them on the board. I know they can not please all of the people all of the time. And right now I am not even sure they are trying.

Be Safe

THE DAWG