Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[gabe]

409 is a tricky build.  Takes a good touch and long ring compressor to get the rings by those chambers in the cylinder.  Even trickier machining those cylinders.  Nothing tricky about working on the twin cam though.  A few tools unto itself for both work and machining.  But they're by no means radical. 

It had to have gotten very hot for that oil to look that bad.  That's nasty.  Obiously none of your external modifications could account for that.  I suppose an incredibly bad tuning effort could be blamed as some partial cause.  But you said the bike ran well.....

You can cancel the extended warranty for a pro-rated refund.  I'd still bitch at speak to Mother Harley for an explanation as to how your changes caused this problem.  The simple fact of having made the changes isn't enough.  The changes have to be the cause.

FWIW as some others have mentioned that disassembly is as nasty as the engine is dirty.  Someone took it apart either without care or already having decided it was shelled and it didn't matter.  Neither of which is the type of care you want to see from a tech doing internal engine maintenance.  Watch your back (and your bike) as all this progresses.

doc tuned the bike at bike week and ran a 1000 miles after tune  with no problem
i dont belive it was the tune

[spydglide]

I've seen bike week traffic so bad that you could cook a engine if you just let it happen.  spyder

[twinotter]

 Just curious. When they drained the oil, how much was left in the oil pan. Wa there a huge amount in the camcover? It almost looks like the engine ran out of oil! Since most synthetics burn at something around 400 degrees, it stands that it got over that in the rear cylinder at least. The burnt residue (thats what it appears tobe) in the camchest suggests very little oil. Was the oil pump loose on the camplate? was the pump o ring intact?
I feel bad for you gabe, I hope you can stir HD into standing behind its product here.   twinotter

[kraut]

how about having an independent surveyor checking this engine?

[gabe]

Just curious. When they drained the oil, how much was left in the oil pan. Wa there a huge amount in the camcover? It almost looks like the engine ran out of oil! Since most synthetics burn at something around 400 degrees, it stands that it got over that in the rear cylinder at least. The burnt residue (thats what it appears tobe) in the camchest suggests very little oil. Was the oil pump loose on the camplate? was the pump o ring intact?
I feel bad for you gabe, I hope you can stir HD into standing behind its product here.   twinotter

never loss oil presure oil was 2 lines below the mark had checked the thursday before and chage it 2000 miles before this

[SBB]

Which dealer?  I don't think I'd want the tech who took it apart be the one putting it back together...  What a mess...   

I believe that was Cox Harley Davidson in Rock Hill SC.

SBB

[SBB]

harlay came out and will not fix bike and block  vin for warranty work
 there reason is
red line oil
after market exhaust
after market tunner
 what i have is
a tts tuner
fullsac b head pipe
cfr knokoff mufflers
   MOTHER SHIP SC**WING YOU AGAIN

When my 09 SEUC died it had,
red line oil
after market exhaust
after market tuner and HD of Charlotte rebuilt it under warranty.
The front cylinder exhaust valve stuck open, hit the piston and it was downhill from there.
I got a new head, rings, changed cams and the bike had a new lease on life.
Although Harley approved my repair I knew my dealer would fix the issue regardless.
Dealers have a lot of latitude when there are gray areas.
Good luck Gabe, I hope your wallet doesn't take a big hit on this.

SBB

[Eagle Eye]

When my 09 SEUC died it had,
red line oil
after market exhaust
after market tuner and HD of Charlotte rebuilt it under warranty.
The front cylinder exhaust valve stuck open, hit the piston and it was downhill from there.
I got a new head, rings, changed cams and the bike had a new lease on life.
Although Harley approved my repair I knew my dealer would fix the issue regardless.
Dealers have a lot of latitude when there are gray areas.
Good luck Gabe, I hope your wallet doesn't take a big hit on this.

SBB

I'm not an attorney, but this appears to be a qualifying precedent.  If you can give Gabe more details, such as when the repair was approved and where; along with the circumstances, it could help him with an appeal.  The dweeb who turned it down in the first place is wrong.  The modifications did not cause the engine to fail.   


IMHO: Fight Gabe!!! You have a warrantied repair that should be approved, along with restoration of the original warranty.

Good luck! 

[SBB]

I'm not an attorney, but this appears to be a qualifying precedent.  If you can give Gabe more details, such as when the repair was approved and where; along with the circumstances, it could help him with an appeal.  The dweeb who turned it down in the first place is wrong.  The modifications did not cause the engine to fail.   


IMHO: Fight Gabe!!! You have a warrantied repair that should be approved, along with restoration of the original warranty.

Good luck! 

My experience with my dealer is an open book.
I just hope Gabe doesn't have to fund the repairs himself.

SBB

[sadunbar]

I'm not an attorney, but this appears to be a qualifying precedent. 

I'm sure there are many qualifying precedent's.  And I'm sure there are just as many precedents of the MOCO denying warranty for the same circumstances.  That's the frustrating part of how the MOCO applies their warranty. 

For Gabe to be told his modifications also cancel his extended warranty smells of dealership b.s.  The extended warranty is a third party warranty, and neither the MOCO or the dealership makes warranty decisions for the third party...

[Midnight Rider]

This is wrong on a number of levels.  I don't know Doc, but from all I've read, he knows what he's doing when it comes to tuning a bike.  So that is the first pile of poop.  The use of Redline Oil is another pile.  And changing the exhaust is something the dealers ENCOURAGE you to do before it leaves the shop, and I don't know the actual numbers, but I'd bet that at least 70% of all HD bikes have non-stock exhaust of one sort or another.  Finally, HD cannot "cancel" your extended warranty, as they do not provide the coverage for the INSURANCE policy that it is.  That is a third party...look at your ESP documents...give them a call, just to find out if HD actually cancelled it.  They do not have the authority to do so.  It's the same as if you had a wreck and HD called your insurance company and cancelled the policy for you or for the provider.  I would not give them any details other than asking if it's been cancelled, and if it has, I'd get it in writing from them who did so.

Most HD dealers I've been to sell Vance and Hines exhaust systems and Race Tuners.  They do NOT tell the buyer that the items they are selling to you void your warranty, or the extended warranty.  Because you did not purchase parts that HD sells through their dealership, but function exactly the same way (the same people that used to make Race Tuners make the TTS), does not make those parts more potentially damaging.

It's not my decision, but I'd find me a good consumer attorney.  I would also contact Redline, Fullsac, and Doc, just to put them on notice that HD is claiming their product caused a catastrophic engine failure.  Then I'd get the reasons for denial (or let the attorney do so) in writing from the MOCO.

I would not trust this engine rebuilt unless they split the cases and did so from the ground up.  Or replaced the entire engine.  Either way, it's going to be...or would be for me...big bucks.  Enough $$$ that at least talking to an attorney would be worth the effort.  It may only take a letter from the right person.

[HOGMIKE]

harlay came out and will not fix bike and block  vin for warranty work
 there reason is
red line oil
after market exhaust
after market tunner
 what i have is
a tts tuner
fullsac b head pipe
cfr knokoff mufflers
   MOTHER SHIP SC**WING YOU AGAIN

And you have that in writing? signed by who? Factory or dealership?
I smell a rat.
 

[gabe]

 thanks guy for all the support
been back it touch with mother ship after i sleep on the problem   they are saying that the tts tuner made the bike over heat and burn the oil  is this possible ??
as far as doc i have been in touch with him he has been great as far as suport and knowledge
thanks doc
   

 new bumper sticker    mother ship can chit on us
                                    we keep coming back
                                          for more

[gary_r]

Look at the law. It is the MoCo burden to PROVE the aftermarket part caused the problem. If they can't they MUST cover it under warranty.

Ask if they have ever heard of the "Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act" (Federal Law enacted in 1975. It is the federal statute that governs warranties on consumer products). They must prove that any Non-Harley addition was the direct cause of the failure.

[Midnight Rider]

Look at the law. It is the MoCo burden to PROVE the aftermarket part caused the problem. If they can't they MUST cover it under warranty.

Ask if they have ever heard of the "Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act" (Federal Law enacted in 1975. It is the federal statute that governs warranties on consumer products). They must prove that any Non-Harley addition was the direct cause of the failure.

That is the bottom line.  Mention that to them and see what they say.

Or better, let an attorney mention it to them in writing, after you get in writing that they say the TTS caused the failure.  You can go back and forth with the dealer and the MOCO, with this he said/she said stuff.  Get them to put in writing exactly what they say caused the failure and why, then move forward in whatever way you choose.  I would not put up with them "saying" this or that for one instant.  It sounds to me like you are going to have to fight on this one.