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CVO Social => In The News => Topic started by: Miss Susan on July 08, 2016, 02:49:52 PM
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Saw this on several news organizations today.
http://www.wisn.com/news/Harley-Davidson-motorcycles-investigated-for-brake-failure/40418318
Miss Susan
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Miss Susan,
You should make sure Hub reads this article. Well this part anyway :)
The agency said it is possible that some riders who experienced brake failure did not change the motorcycle's brake fluid every two years as recommended by Harley-Davidson. :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
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Nothing wrong with the brakes...... The F.B.I. looked into it :'(
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LOL
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Nothing wrong with the brakes...... The F.B.I. looked into it :'(
Good one, Mike!
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I want the NHTSA and Harley-Davidson to determine why Harley's brake systems must have the fluid changed every two years, but no such requirement exists in the auto business. Are they saying that Harley's system is so inferior that moisture and contaminants destroy the fluid in two years? The same fluid used in other motorcycles and cars and trucks? Hmmmmm.
Most vehicles of all types rarely have the brake fluid changed unless the system is opened up for major repairs. I'm not saying that is the best way to do things, I'm just relating what I've seen over many years in the business. I'm willing to bet there are many millions of such vehicles on our roads today, with way more than two years on the brake fluid, and yet we don't hear about significant numbers of brake systems failing. Amazing!
Harley obviously believes that no one remembers all the failures and screw-ups when they launched ABS in 2008. The same kinds of failures claimed in the complaints as a matter of fact. And let's not forget the other major safety issue they created that same year with ETC, or throttle-by-wire. They managed to skate responsibility and recalls for both those systems, but that doesn't mean everyone has forgotten all about them. I seem to remember wondering out loud on this forum why it was that Harley couldn't take old technology from the auto and motorcycle industries and apply it to their bikes without major problems. It's pretty bad when someone else has done all the inventing and development for you and you still can't make your version right the first time.
Jerry
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I want the NHTSA and Harley-Davidson to determine why Harley's brake systems must have the fluid changed every two years, but no such requirement exists in the auto business. Are they saying that Harley's system is so inferior that moisture and contaminants destroy the fluid in two years? The same fluid used in other motorcycles and cars and trucks? Hmmmmm.
Most vehicles of all types rarely have the brake fluid changed unless the system is opened up for major repairs. I'm not saying that is the best way to do things, I'm just relating what I've seen over many years in the business. I'm willing to bet there are many millions of such vehicles on our roads today, with way more than two years on the brake fluid, and yet we don't hear about significant numbers of brake systems failing. Amazing!
Harley obviously believes that no one remembers all the failures and screw-ups when they launched ABS in 2008. The same kinds of failures claimed in the complaints as a matter of fact. And let's not forget the other major safety issue they created that same year with ETC, or throttle-by-wire. They managed to skate responsibility and recalls for both those systems, but that doesn't mean everyone has forgotten all about them. I seem to remember wondering out loud on this forum why it was that Harley couldn't take old technology from the auto and motorcycle industries and apply it to their bikes without major problems. It's pretty bad when someone else has done all the inventing and development for you and you still can't make your version right the first time.
Jerry
As for part of your statement (and I agree with you), the bikes mentioned are the 2008 - 2011 model years. The same ones you speak of with MoCo's first quest into ABS.
About other vehicles never need the fluid flushed. I have no idea what other bike manufacturers recommendations are so I'll leave that alone. The best guess why I think MoCo recommends it is due to the heat the lines are subject to being so close to the engine and exhaust components. I've changed or fixed enough brake lines on cars over the years and I honestly can't remember one of them being subject to the heat that the ones on the bikes are. Fluid gets hot, it boils, creates condensation. I know more than a few auto/truck mechanics that also say a full brake fluid flush every XX number of miles is a good thing depending on your driving conditions. Just my thoughts on it.
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I might be wrong, but I thought it had to do with the brake lines routed near the exhaust pipe causing the fluid to heat and loose hydraulics.
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Nothing wrong with the brakes...... The F.B.I. looked into it :'(
That's encouraging. Later--HUBBARD
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The Porsche Club required brakes to be flushed with-in 30 days of competing in any driving competition. Just sayin'...
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Don't forget that failures were occurring on brand new bikes that were less than two years old back in 2008 and 2009. So does that mean Harley filled the brakes with old used fluid at the factory? Or does that mean their system was flawed? We all know the answer, whether some want to admit it or not.
Jerry
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Things have changed a bit on cars/trucks over the years, but as a service manager at a Chevy/Pontiac dealership for 15 years, I remember many master cylinders and coils of brake lines within inches of the cast iron exhaust manifolds. We never had any issues with overheating lines or fluid. And sometimes those manifolds were close to cherry red and they hold the heat a lot more than just thin wall exhaust tubing.
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Things have changed a bit on cars/trucks over the years, but as a service manager at a Chevy/Pontiac dealership for 15 years, I remember many master cylinders and coils of brake lines within inches of the cast iron exhaust manifolds. We never had any issues with overheating lines or fluid. And sometimes those manifolds were close to cherry red and they hold the heat a lot more than just thin wall exhaust tubing.
Exactly Dan. If folks would care to look under the hood of a late model car (assuming they can see anything since most engine compartments these days are crammed so full you can't see the ground), they would find the brake lines and the ABS pump and control unit sitting in close proximity to hot exhaust and engine parts, and the entire underhood area is really hot. Harley doesn't have the market cornered on hot engines or brake lines. And changing brake fluid on a two year schedule is something I've never seen done on cars and trucks. I still remember asking a local shop to change the brake fluid when I had Momma's SUV in to have the coolant and power steering fluids changed several years back. I got strange looks from the two guys at the counter, and questioned as to why I would want such a thing. Then a couple years ago I had a different shop change rotors and pads on another vehicle, and I got the same question when I added that I'd like the system flushed and refilled. It wasn't part of their normal routine or even something they tried to sell. Maybe it should be. Most cars and trucks on the road are probably running the same brake fluid the factory installed, no matter how long ago that was. And they aren't suffering a rash of brake failures because that old fluid supposedly caused the valves in the ABS unit to seize up. If they were, you may rest assured there would have been recalls up the wazoo. My earlier post wasn't about whether it's a good idea to change fluid occasionally, it was about the fact that not changing it every two years is a bogus excuse Harley wants to use to cover their azzes for their failure to address the issues with the system back in '08 and'09.
Jerry
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Miss Susan,
You should make sure Hub reads this article. Well this part anyway :)
The agency said it is possible that some riders who experienced brake failure did not change the motorcycle's brake fluid every two years as recommended by Harley-Davidson. :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
You just got to dig up bones, don't you?! You're an a$$hole, Harry, of the first order. I woulda' been in worse shape if Brad hadn't helped me out. Down on the gravels bleedin' brakes on these ol' worn out knees wudn't no fun. I did have Jody check the fluid in Ol' Maybelle this past February though, and she's good. I never heard of such chit in my life. I've been owning and ridin' Harleys since 1967, which including Maybelle, is 14 Harleys, and I never changed, or heard about changing, brake fluid in none of 'em. Won't happen again, though. It is what it is. Later--HUBBARD
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You just got to dig up bones, don't you?! You're an a$$hole, Harry, of the first order. I woulda' been in worse shape if Brad hadn't helped me out. Down on the gravels bleedin' brakes on these ol' worn out knees wudn't no fun. I did have Jody check the fluid in Ol' Maybelle this past February though, and she's good. I never heard of such chit in my life. I've been owning and ridin' Harleys since 1967, which including Maybelle, is 14 Harleys, and I never changed, or heard about changing, brake fluid in none of 'em. Won't happen again, though. It is what it is. Later--HUBBARD
Haha, forgot about this one! Actually as I recall it, Brad helped you the second time :huepfenlol2:
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The Porsche Club required brakes to be flushed with-in 30 days of competing in any driving competition. Just sayin'...
14 Corvette Stingray manual states to change brake fluid after a Track Day.
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Haha, forgot about this one! Actually as I recall it, Brad helped you the second time :huepfenlol2:
No chance of that, with Harry's instigating mouth around. He's got more mouth than a Bull is chitty, 6 yds. up his a$$! There endeth the lesson. Later--HUBBARD
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Hub don't be hating just because some of us don't have CRS or wish they did to avoid these juicy tidbits being revisited.
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The Porsche Club required brakes to be flushed with-in 30 days of competing in any driving competition. Just sayin'...
14 Corvette Stingray manual states to change brake fluid after a Track Day.
;D The Porsche Club and the Stingray manual instructions concerning racing, as well as the SCCA back in the day, had many requirements that had absolutely nothing to do with street driven vehicles. Most of those requirements came from the early days when the stuff sold for the street wasn't close to the standards met by todays regular production vehicles.
Just to make sure my memory hadn't failed again, I dug through the maintenance requirements for Momma's CUV to see what it has to say about brake fluid. And in at least this one instance my memory was perfect; there is no periodic requirement or even recommendation about changing brake fluid. She is supposed to change the coolant every six years though. What I remember over the years is that we recommended a full system flush and new fluid after the system had been opened up for major repairs. That is still a good recommendation. But if you go to most shops just to have pads and rotors changed, they won't change fluid unless you insist on it.
Regardless, there is nothing unique about a Harley brake system that should require replacing brake fluid every two years. And it has nothing to do with the ABS, since they had that same requirement in the maintenance charts a long time before they even dreamed of adding ABS to their bikes. Like many things from Milwaukee, it probably has it's roots in ancient history and has never been updated for modern times and materials. It was only in the past few years they finally dropped the requirement to change the trans lube at every service interval, even though there was never a valid reason to do so. How often does your car or truck require gear lubes to be changed?
Jerry
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Yeah, I didn't get the reference to tracked sports cars, either.
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About other vehicles never need the fluid flushed. I have no idea what other bike manufacturers recommendations are so I'll leave that alone.
just for chits and giggles, I looked up the maintenance chart for the 2016 indian chief/chieftan. they recommend the brake fluid be flushed every 10,000 miles or 2 years.
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From Investopedia.......... http://www.investopedia.com/stock-analysis/071116/another-big-recall-ahead-harleydavidson-hog-pii.aspx?partner=YahooSA&yptr=yahoo
Is Another Big Recall Ahead for Harley-Davidson? By Investopedia | July 11, 2016 — 2:25 PM EDT
Not that any big recall is opportune for the company involved, but an investigation by the National Highway Transportation Safety Authority into some 430,000 motorcycles comes at a particularly bad time for Harley-Davidson (NYSE: HOG). The big bike maker is trying to pull itself out of a multi-year sales slide, and potential brake failure problems for bikes produced between 2008 and 2011 will hardly instill consumer confidence.
Harley-Davidson is already coming off two straight years of having to recall large numbers of motorcycles; an even larger one would damage its credibility with riders.
The NHTSA says it received 43 complaints regarding Harley's anti-lock braking system, which saw the front or rear brakes, or both, completely fail after the brake fluid absorbed moisture from the surrounding environment. While most of the problems are attributed to owner error -- Harley tells owners the brake fluid must be replaced every two years, a service that many apparently ignored -- the safety agency still found the complete failure of the braking system cause for concern. The motorcycle company says it's aware of the investigation and is cooperating.
Last year, Harley-Davidson initiated two recalls for a total of 55,000 bikes for problems with rear reflectors and the clutch. In 2014, it recalled 127,000 bikes for a different clutch issue and 66,000 to fix a problem with the front brakes.
Vehicle recalls are common; even rival Polaris Industries is facing several extensive recalls, though they are for its popular off-road RZR ATVs, not its motorcycles. Polaris' successful resurrection of the Indian Motorcycle marque has cut sharply into Harley's market share, though Harley still accounts for half of the big-bike market.
There was a time when it was said that Harley-Davidsons owners needed to buy two bikes -- one to ride and another for parts. (Another common joke from that period was that "90% of all Harley's are still on the road; the other 10% actually made it back home.") The big bike king has done a lot to erase those memories of poor quality in the ensuing years, but with another large recall potentially just down the road, Harley may find those jokes starting to make the rounds again, at it a particularly inopportune time.
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Hmmmm. So after thinking all these years that Harley's brake system was a sealed system just like the one on all those cars and trucks, we find that a Harley system will just suck moisture right out of the environment like a big sponge. Who knew?
"The NHTSA says it received 43 complaints regarding Harley's anti-lock braking system, which saw the front or rear brakes, or both, completely fail after the brake fluid absorbed moisture from the surrounding environment"
Perhaps they should go back to rod activated rear brakes, so when the fronts fail you can still stop.
Jerry
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Question for the brake experts on here that seems related. Recently after some fairly spirited mountain roads one of the CVO Ultras in our group experienced the rear brakes getting weak. The bike eventually got better after slowing down and getting out of the mountains. Is this a case that would probably be advisable to flush the rear system? I assume the pads or fluid in the rear caliper got hot.
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Hmmmm. So after thinking all these years that Harley's brake system was a sealed system just like the one on all those cars and trucks, we find that a Harley system will just suck moisture right out of the environment like a big sponge. Who knew?
"The NHTSA says it received 43 complaints regarding Harley's anti-lock braking system, which saw the front or rear brakes, or both, completely fail after the brake fluid absorbed moisture from the surrounding environment"
Perhaps they should go back to rod activated rear brakes, so when the fronts fail you can still stop.
Jerry
Jerry, perhaps their solution will be a retrofit to eliminate all the potentially problematic plumbing wherein moisture might intrude. Just a permanently sealed remote pump and receiver at each wheel triggered by a fly-by-wire signal initiated at each brake pedal. After all, Harley did such a smashing job of rolling out their electronic throttle what could go wrong?
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Question for the brake experts on here that seems related. Recently after some fairly spirited mountain roads one of the CVO Ultras in our group experienced the rear brakes getting weak. The bike eventually got better after slowing down and getting out of the mountains. Is this a case that would probably be advisable to flush the rear system? I assume the pads or fluid in the rear caliper got hot.
It's brakes, on a motorcycle. If there's any doubt in your mind just do it. :2vrolijk_21:
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Question for the brake experts on here that seems related. Recently after some fairly spirited mountain roads one of the CVO Ultras in our group experienced the rear brakes getting weak. The bike eventually got better after slowing down and getting out of the mountains. Is this a case that would probably be advisable to flush the rear system? I assume the pads or fluid in the rear caliper got hot.
Could be the overuse of the rear brake and not enough front brake, I know a few riders that swear that using just the rear brake is better when at speed, of course slow speed maneuvers rear brake is a different story.
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Could be the overuse of the rear brake and not enough front brake, I know a few riders that swear that using just the rear brake is better.
Please modify that. Solo rear brake is better for slow speed maneuvering in tight quarters. BOTH brakes should be used at speed.
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Please modify that. Solo rear brake is better for slow speed maneuvering in tight quarters. BOTH brakes should be used at speed.
Thanks, I corrected my post, you of course are right. I wasn't thinking low speed maneuvers when I posted.
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Question for the brake experts on here that seems related. Recently after some fairly spirited mountain roads one of the CVO Ultras in our group experienced the rear brakes getting weak. The bike eventually got better after slowing down and getting out of the mountains. Is this a case that would probably be advisable to flush the rear system? I assume the pads or fluid in the rear caliper got hot.
Both the pads and the fluid can cause brake fade. If the fluid gets hot enough to boil, that's not good. If that fluid has a significant amount of moisture in it, it will boil at a lower temperature. As for the pads, if they get hot enough they can outgas, causing a thin boundary layer between the rotor and pad that also reduces friction and stopping power. A further complication many don't consider is the fact that the front brakes are out in clean air, whereas the rear brake sits shielded behind a hot engine and exhaust, various bits of bodywork, and the riders legs.
I would suggest, as others have, that the problem was the rider overused the rear brake and perhaps even kept his foot on the pedal most of the time. If it would make him feel better, then yes go ahead and flush the fluid and replace it with the highest boiling point DOT 4 fluid he can find. There is a wide variance in boiling point by brand and price point, with racing fluid being very pricey indeed. And if he continues to abuse the rear brake, it will probably happen again anyway.
JMHO - Jerry
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Question for the brake experts on here that seems related. Recently after some fairly spirited mountain roads one of the CVO Ultras in our group experienced the rear brakes getting weak. The bike eventually got better after slowing down and getting out of the mountains. Is this a case that would probably be advisable to flush the rear system? I assume the pads or fluid in the rear caliper got hot.
Happened to me last year going up Sandia Crest Byway riding two-up and pulling a trailer. I was going UP so was not using either of the brakes very much at all. But when I did need to slow down for a sharp curve I found I had no rear brake, and oh yeah, I lost my clutch also. This was due to both the rear brake line and the clutch line being extremely close to the cat portion of the exhaust causing the fluid to overheat and boil. Has happened to several folks I know. So yes he definitely should flush the old brake fluid. I know that I'll be flushing all lines using brake fluid every two years from now on. Losing rear brake and clutch in the mountains ain't nothing to take lightly.
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When did HD document changing the brake fluid every two years? After the fact of the ABS brake failures?? I couldn't find it in my service manual, supplement or owners manual, of course I could have missed it. For some reason I've been flushing the hydraulic systems out on a yearly basis, I've looked to see what they recommend as far as quantity to use while flushing and again I've seen nothing. My recent flush I prolly used 20 ounces doing the brakes. Starting on the rear then front right and front left last. :nixweiss:
The clutch is much less in volume so not nearly as much used to flush but it's always cruddy looking, someone told me that graphite lube is used in the clutch closed system as to why it looks the way it does.
I've had my rear brake fade on occasion while riding like a wildman through the mountains but it returns to normal after a cool down period.
Just trying to learn
TN
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When did HD document changing the brake fluid every two years? After the fact of the ABS brake failures?? I couldn't find it in my service manual, supplement or owners manual, of course I could have missed it. For some reason I've been flushing the hydraulic systems out on a yearly basis, I've looked to see what they recommend as far as quantity to use while flushing and again I've seen nothing. My recent flush I prolly used 20 ounces doing the brakes. Starting on the rear then front right and front left last. :nixweiss:
The clutch is much less in volume so not nearly as much used to flush but it's always cruddy looking, someone told me that graphite lube is used in the clutch closed system as to why it looks the way it does.
I've had my rear brake fade on occasion while riding like a wildman through the mountains but it returns to normal after a cool down period.
Just trying to learn
TN
I've had read articles and had friends and techs tell me that after this happens you should flush the fluid as it will have been degraded and its boiling point will have been lowered.
Jerry
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I know at least one member here that has replaced his dot 4 fluid with dot 5.1 because of the higher boiling temp it's rated for.
Ride Hard
TN
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I've had my rear brake fade on occasion while riding like a wildman through the mountains but it returns to normal after a cool down period.
Just trying to learn
TN
This happens very frequently out here, and so much so that on Pikes Peak they will check your rotor temps with that laser thing at a check point and make you pull over if they are too hot.
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Folks who ride a lot in the mountains probably should invest in the highest boiling point fluid they can find, but even that won't necessarily keep them from having brake fade if they don't let the brakes cool between applications. As I mentioned before, even if the fluid doesn't boil the pads themselves also cause fade. On a bike it also doesn't help that the rotor material doesn't have the best heat rejection properties. Cast iron is used on cars for a reason, but bikers don't want to see all that unsightly surface rust so they get stainless instead. Other materials are available of course, but the price tag puts those out of reach for all but the racing teams and the few regular folks with tons of money to burn.
Jerry
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2009 Owners manual does list to change the brake fluid every two years in the maintenance chart, brake fluid, footnote 4.
TN
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The only brake failure I've ever experienced was back in 2012, (I think), on Ol' Maudie, in Maggie Valley. That's one time Ol' Hub did use the Front Brake! Scary. My fault. I had never changed the Brake Fluid, or flushed the system. Didn't have a clue it was a PM procedure. Again, my fault. Won't happen again, if the fluid is the sole reason for failure. And, if you've ever ridden behind me, and paid any attention to my riding style, you'll notice my brake lites don't lite up often, when running through twisties. Hot brakes don't work! Back in the day, when we had those sorry-assed mechanical drum brakes, I was taught by one of my heroes, to use the Tranny as the brakes. I still ride that way today. Sounds good, too, backin' off from about 5000 R's!!! Our Transmissions are almost bullet-proof. That's one component on a Harley that almost nobody bitches about. I really abuse my Transmission, and, knock on wood, it keeps right on performing. Slows me down safer than brakes, in that application, IMHO. But what do I know? We've all got different riding styles. Ride to live--Live to ride!!! There endeth the lesson. Later--HUBBARD
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2009 Owners manual does list to change the brake fluid every two years in the maintenance chart, brake fluid, footnote 4.
TN
I believe the only way to properly bleed the ABS is with the use of the Digital Technician to actuate the valves. This is the area the ABS modules have been failing. REcent clutch issues and thhis one seem to have to do with corrosion from the fluid. Did something change with the fluid they are using or perhaps the metal /alloy/ aluminum?
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How many ounces of brake fluid does the ABS module hold? There are other devices that can do the same thing while bleeding the abs system, (technoresearch, twintec) only option for a DIY'er like me.
TN