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CVO Technical => Intake/Exhaust/ECM => Topic started by: Elwood808 on October 22, 2016, 05:27:18 PM
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I have a 2016 Fatboy S, Vance and Hines Staggered Shots stock AC. I am getting ready to do a cams swap, no pistons, no cyl or head work. I am curious if any of you have used a FP3 to select Fueling or Woods cams and what were the results. Did you have noticeable results or did you have to flash the factory ECM, swap tuners to get it tuned properly. I am looking at Woods 777 or Fueling 574 cams fwiw.
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I have a 2016 Fatboy S, Vance and Hines Staggered Shots stock AC. I am getting ready to do a cams swap, no pistons, no cyl or head work. I am curious if any of you have used a FP3 to select Fueling or Woods cams and what were the results. Did you have noticeable results or did you have to flash the factory ECM, swap tuners to get it tuned properly. I am looking at Woods 777 or Fueling 574 cams fwiw.
Hey Elwood!
Wow, nothing but crickets, I wonder why? I can't believe all the VP3 owners aren't jumping in here and telling you how easy and simple it will be to dial in your new cams? No dyno tuning required, just push the magic button and everything will take care of itself right?. A bunch of new VP3 owner were in here a while back beating there chest about the new technology and how dyno tuners would be out of business. All cool aid drinkers.
Here's some auto tune reality. A cam swap requires a major change in VE to bring the AFR back into the desired range. The stock 02 sensors can read and provide usefull data in the 13.8-15.2 AFR range. The cam swap will move the AFR way outside of this window in many places making afr data unavailable until the VE numbers in the calibration are manually adjusted by a human. If V+H will provide a base cal that is close the auto tune might have a chance of getting the afrs right in the closed loop area. Here's the problem. Full throttle is out side of closed loop. Along with a dozen other critical adjustments like accell fuel, decell fuel, warm up enrichment, spark knock, spark tables,throttle blade settings, and many other things that all have to be adjusted manually by a human. The whole point of adding performance parts is to make power. Proper tuning is critical for optimum results. My.02, find a good dyno tuner.
They will reccomend and use TTS Mastertune.
OK VP3 owners! Start the pie throwing! :nervous: :o :nervous: :'( :nervous:
Steve@fullsac.com
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Wow, I have never seen Steve go off like that, but I 100% agree. Just spend your money once on a real tuner and call it done.
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Wow, I have never seen Steve go off like that, but I 100% agree. Just spend your money once on a real tuner and call it done.
Sorry if I went off, Lol.. I have been waiting for days for the VP3 bandwagon to arrive. They were here before offering up the "solution" with blue tooth technology and special voodoo. Its just a simple cam swap, com on, tell us how the VP3 is going to deal with this chit? Where's the magic now? Spill your cool aid? I'm waiting! Lol..
Sorry, I went off again. No more coffee I'm out. ;D
SG
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;D I started to type a reply right after this thread was started, but then decided to wait and see what kind of responses he would get from that FP3 crowd. I'm amazed not a single one of them took the time to help out a fellow V&H fan. :confused5:
Thanks Steve for telling him what I was thinking.
Jerry
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;D I started to type a reply right after this thread was started, but then decided to wait and see what kind of responses he would get from that FP3 crowd. I'm amazed not a single one of them took the time to help out a fellow V&H fan. :confused5:
Thanks Steve for telling him what I was thinking.
Jerry
X-2 Steve! There is no substitute for a good professional tune. None of the magic boxes that promise you everything from Amway to Zen can handle it. V& H just came out with a new 30 HP Kit, now just with 575 cams ,a FP , pipe and an AC ...bingo.... 30 HP..DAMN!! Steve are you getting nervous..??? LOL
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Elwood,
Take all this as constructive criticism! You're getting the best advise from the pros!
Steve,
It funny as there are a bunch of FP3 Kool-Aid Drinkers on the HD Fourm that think it's the next best thing since slice bread.
Oh yeah, there are more Drinkers regarding "Auto-Tune" as well! Lol
YB
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what is FP3 :confused5:
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what is FP3 :confused5:
Fuel Pak 3, an upscale version of the old Fuel Pak Vance & Hines sold. More capable than the older versions, but still no where near the capabilities of something like the TTS. Higher price, lots of hype, but in the end it's still just a Fuel Pak.
JMHO - Jerry
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;)
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I have a 2016 Fatboy S, Vance and Hines Staggered Shots stock AC. I am getting ready to do a cams swap, no pistons, no cyl or head work. I am curious if any of you have used a FP3 :o to select Fueling or Woods cams and what were the results. Did you have noticeable results or did you have to flash the factory ECM, swap tuners to get it tuned properly. I am looking at Woods 777 or Fueling 574 cams fwiw.
You need a Flash tuner, a guy that knows how to tune & there are other cams to strongly consider as a "Bolt In"
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Hey Elwood!
Wow, nothing but crickets, I wonder why? I can't believe all the VP3 owners aren't jumping in here and telling you how easy and simple it will be to dial in your new cams? No dyno tuning required, just push the magic button and everything will take care of itself right?. A bunch of new VP3 owner were in here a while back beating there chest about the new technology and how dyno tuners would be out of business. All cool aid drinkers.
Here's some auto tune reality. A cam swap requires a major change in VE to bring the AFR back into the desired range. The stock 02 sensors can read and provide usefull data in the 13.8-15.2 AFR range. The cam swap will move the AFR way outside of this window in many places making afr data unavailable until the VE numbers in the calibration are manually adjusted by a human. If V+H will provide a base cal that is close the auto tune might have a chance of getting the afrs right in the closed loop area. Here's the problem. Full throttle is out side of closed loop. Along with a dozen other critical adjustments like accell fuel, decell fuel, warm up enrichment, spark knock, spark tables,throttle blade settings, and many other things that all have to be adjusted manually by a human. The whole point of adding performance parts is to make power. Proper tuning is critical for optimum results. My.02, find a good dyno tuner.
They will reccomend and use TTS Mastertune.
OK VP3 owners! Start the pie throwing! :nervous: :o :nervous: :'( :nervous:
Steve@fullsac.com
One thing to add on your comments Steve, is there CAM tooth sitting in FP3?
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Fullsac didn't "go off" IMO, just saved they guy some money and heartache from motor damage.
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Just think of the reliability of auto"tune" systems for Harleys to be akin to the reliability of the auto"drive" system for Tesla. Still need a human to pay attention and override as necessary.
Just sayin',
Bob
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Hey Elwood!
Wow, nothing but crickets, I wonder why? I can't believe all the VP3 owners aren't jumping in here and telling you how easy and simple it will be to dial in your new cams? No dyno tuning required, just push the magic button and everything will take care of itself right?. A bunch of new VP3 owner were in here a while back beating there chest about the new technology and how dyno tuners would be out of business. All cool aid drinkers.
Here's some auto tune reality. A cam swap requires a major change in VE to bring the AFR back into the desired range. The stock 02 sensors can read and provide usefull data in the 13.8-15.2 AFR range. The cam swap will move the AFR way outside of this window in many places making afr data unavailable until the VE numbers in the calibration are manually adjusted by a human. If V+H will provide a base cal that is close the auto tune might have a chance of getting the afrs right in the closed loop area. Here's the problem. Full throttle is out side of closed loop. Along with a dozen other critical adjustments like accell fuel, decell fuel, warm up enrichment, spark knock, spark tables,throttle blade settings, and many other things that all have to be adjusted manually by a human. The whole point of adding performance parts is to make power. Proper tuning is critical for optimum results. My.02, find a good dyno tuner.
They will reccomend and use TTS Mastertune.
OK VP3 owners! Start the pie throwing! :nervous: :o :nervous: :'( :nervous:
Steve@fullsac.com
I agree 100% with Steve.....go get-um Big Boy......lol....lol.....love it!!!!!!!
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Thanks for the responses, and no hard feelings! I'm going to get in contact with Steve @Fullsac and get smart on the TTS, still sorting out who to get the tune from here on Oahu. I got the FP3 for a steal and haven't even screwed around with the autotune function. The bike doesn't run bad, just wanted to spice it up a bit!! Thanks again and sorry for the time away...on travel without the wifis!
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Never used fuel or woods cams.
I installed some se204s using an fp3 and think it's great. The auto tune seems to get the v.e. close enough to not throw check engine lights so how bad could it be?
Not sure how accurate narrow bands are at 13.8. v&h don't advice going any richer than 14.3 due to the signal getting pegged and no longer switching.
I imagine problems that arise with going to bigger cams would be rectifiable with some patience and time spent doing homework, but if that isn't someone's cup of tea other tuners with more aftermarket support are a way to go.
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what is FP3 :confused5:
Just another bottle of SNAKE OIL Freddy......
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Ellwood, I believe nobody that supports or "likes" the FP3 wants to chime in for support of that system in fear of being crucified by supporters of other systems....as already evidenced by the prior posts to this thread.
I read all on both the TTS and FP3. IF I were to go with a "professional" dyno tune, wanted all the hp/Tq I could squeeze out of my bike and spent a lot of money toward that goal, the TTS would be the only choice.
However for me, after months of research and talking/PMing with folks that either sold/used/supported both systems, I chose the FP3. I wanted a better running bike with the least amount of outgo and a user friendly platform. Back in the day, I would rebuild the carbs on all my HD's as soon as I got them home from the dealer. Nothing but the rebuild and experience knowing what to do to a carb and what to expect with the changes and I was very happy with each rebuild. The FP3 provided the same deal with ease of not having to purchase a laptop (don't have one). I loaded the stock HD exhaust/muffler map from Vance & Hines and can tell the idle is a bit smoother, no popping on decal and it's running better. I haven't really checked fuel mileage but if I get what I was getting, I'm happy and that seems to be the case so far. I may or may not run Autotune but I have that option if I want without having to carry a laptop/cable with me.
TTS is a great product, too, just not for me at this point.
FP3 snake oil? Well, history shows naysayers would say the same for steam engines vs. wind power.... ;D
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Just wanted to say that I have an fp3. Not really a cool aid drinker. . But it works for me this time. I didn't do cams or squish heads or any other mods other than a head pipe. I'm even running the stock cvo mufflers. . I have no complaints. Bike runs very well. Not too hot and I can get 200 miles plus on a tank of gas. . On this cvo rg. . I'm fine with it. I don't have 120 hp/torque. . But I really don't care any more. . Just saying. Stuart.
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Just my opinion but...
TTS for a dyno tune if Cams etc were done.
FP3 for just A/C and Exhaust works great.
I've used both and enjoyed the results. There's cams settings in the FP3 but personally wouldn't do an autotune with internal changes to a motor. I would rather trust a professional tuner and it's whatever product they recommend if we were going for maximum power.
But for simple A/C and Exhaust my FP3 experience has been great and a lot of my friends have had the same results.
Just my personal experience but I've had good luck with both products.
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I have an FP3 and as I have said before, it works fine, Fulsac inserts with everything else the way the bike came from factory and it does everything I think it should, smoothly. I have had prior professional tunes and tuners (TTS and SE). I don't value the Snake Oil comment above as much as most of you do, if fact not at all as I am sure he has never had an FP3. I do value my personal observations and they are that I would buy another FP3 if I needed one.
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Thanks Don. I've been there and done that with 500.,00 dyno tunes. And what ever else that I really didn't need. . Maybe I'm not in that big of a hurry to get too 100 mph in 8 seconds. . Personally I really don't care. I'd rather see the sights and listen to some good tunes. . I have no issues or any problems with the fp3. I would do it again as well. . Sorry Steve. . And I have been a very satisfied customer. . . . . . Stuart
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I'm going with the FP three on my wife's 2015 switch back with high flow air cleaner and nightstick exhaust . We added a few discs to the nightstick and the decel pops are very annoying and it's running hot so we took most of them out . The dealer did the stage one flash at the time of install and I know they always run lean and hot . At least with the FP3 we can do exhaust changes set a map and maybe do an auto tune without any added expense .
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Based on the last few replies, it's pretty obvious the guys with simple stage I bolt ons are happy with the FP3 and its simplicity
of loading a basic canned map. For those not interested in peak performance, the product is working as claimed.
I do understand that you guys represent a very large piece of the pie in the Harley world. V+H knows this too.
Now for the rest of us strung out, old hard core racer types that demand all the performance available from our antiquated VTwins, with Big bore kits, cams, heads, Throttle bodies, ect, and god forbid DYNO TUNING! That's right, wide open pulls banging the rev limiter, da da da :bananarock: over and over for hours!
Well for us your FP3 is completely useless. sorry. :-\
So as long as the "informed" refrain from educating those in the "know", the pitchforks and torches shall remain lowered for the time being.
Steve@fullsac.com
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If I wanted high performance I would not ride a Harley. You can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a HOG.
Still like my HD 120 hp / 130 tq pig.
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If I wanted high performance I would not ride a Harley. You can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a HOG.
Still like my HD 120 hp / 130 tq pig.
FP3?
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There's nothing wrong with using less capable and lower cost solutions if they accomplish your goals. I think the reason many of us recommend going with the more capable solutions has to do with the progression many Harley owners go through over the life of their bikes. In the beginning the new bike seems to have enough power compared to the old one, so you just do the air cleaner and exhaust change and don't need an all-out tune to get it running decently. Then after a year or two the bug bites and you decide you want more power, so you go for a bigger bore, cams, and maybe head work. Now that simple tuning solution is no longer adequate, so you have to buy the higher priced full featured system. Back when the cheaper solutions were add-on piggyback devices, at least you weren't out the full amount you paid for them when you upgraded, since they could be sold to someone else. That's not the case with today's flash systems that marry to the ECM. So many recommendations to skip the lower cost less capable solutions and go straight to the most capable systems are an attempt to help people not make the same mistake many of those making the recommendation made themselves in the past.
Anyhow, that's my take on the situation, and there is no reason for people to get into heated arguments or develop an attitude over these things. In the end, it is your bike and you can do whatever you want. Suggestions are just that, only suggestions.
JMHO -Jerry
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I agree with Jerry. I have had FP, Power Commanders, and TTS, all work for what they were made for. When it goes to perfomance orientated and adjustable, I use the TTS. Have two TTS now and will be three, whenever I put the new engine together.
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If I wanted high performance I would not ride a Harley. You can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a HOG.
Still like my HD 120 hp / 130 tq pig.
Its a lot more fun to ride a slow bike fast, than a Fast bike slow.
I can go way more than fast enough on my 138 HP and 140 Torque CVO King. It's a slow bike thats fun to ride fast. Now take a nice 1 Liter sport bike, at 100 your riding slow, can't ride it fast enough on the street to be fun.
I would love to see some one tune a 117 inch bike to make my numbers with a FP3. I seriously doubt its possible.
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Why not try it? With all the $$$$ the 117 cost, spend the 300 bucks and see if you can reproduce a tune already achieved with a different program.
The way I see the fp3, there is more than enough adjustablity to make a tune safe if one had a sniffer to verify gases, and enough patience to use a phone for as long as one would use a PC on a Dyno.
I have
It seems the new kid on the block will get the short end of the stick until someone spendy can pony up for an fp3 session after their tts tune is perfect.
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