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CVO Technical => Drive Train => Topic started by: TXGator on October 03, 2014, 07:45:13 PM
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To her in today and the dealer bled the hydro clutch because it wasn't engaging until 3/4 release. Very small friction zone. Much better now as it starts to grab at right about 50%. Just putting it out there because I was being told it couldn't be adjusted but the bleeding of the system after a few hundred miles sure did help.
take care...
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Friction zone wasn't "technically" adjusted.... getting the air out the system has corrected a problem and now the clutch (friction zone) is where it should be. This (air in the system) has been a noted problem w/the hydraulic clutches and one of the first things mentioned when people start having issues with them. Sounds like you got a dealer (tech) that is on the ball and is aware of this issue and took care of you. :2vrolijk_21:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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You're right and that is exactly how the tech explained it to me. I was probably just conveying it the best I could. Either way you are definitely correct about the dealership taking care of me. I see them each week at bike nite and they ask how everything is. When I explained about the concern on the clutch they told me to get it in next day with no appointment. They took it straight in and I was out in an hour or so. They also updated the radio to the latest.
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Hey all,
My first post here. I just read this thread and I am experiencing the same issue on my 12 RG. I have to ask this in addition to the friction zone adjustment, I also have this whining/whirring sound in the trans/primary area when I downshift into first just before coming to a stop. Has anyone had a similiar issue like this? I have never had a hyd clutch but it sure is a weird feeling coming from a cabled clutch.
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Hey all,
My first post here. I just read this thread and I am experiencing the same issue on my 12 RG. I have to ask this in addition to the friction zone adjustment, I also have this whining/whirring sound in the trans/primary area when I downshift into first just before coming to a stop. Has anyone had a similiar issue like this? I have never had a hyd clutch but it sure is a weird feeling coming from a cabled clutch.
That whine you hear coasting down in first gear isn't related to the clutch, it's the noise made by the straight cut gears that are used for 1st gear in the Cruise Drive trans. Pretty much the same as what we all experienced with the old 5 speed trans btw.
As noted by Fired00d, if your clutch has air in the hydraulic system, getting that air completely removed with a thorough bleeding will return the operation of the system to normal. However, normal is all you will get, there is no free play adjustment to allow you to alter the point of engagement if that's what you want.
Jerry
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Just to update... I have noticed that the friction zone is now back to being in the last inch to inch and a half of clutch travel. I am going to mention it again at the 1000 mile check.
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Whenever I've had air in any of my hydraulic clutch systems, prior to bleating the clutch the engagement/diss engagement was closer to the grip, not further away.
Bleeding the system only brought the friction zone further out.
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Whenever I've had air in any of my hydraulic clutch systems, prior to bleating the clutch the engagement/diss engagement was closer to the grip, not further away.
Bleeding the system only brought the friction zone further out.
:2vrolijk_21: That's the way it's always worked in the past, and I can't imagine the physics involved changing. If the clutch engages too late (with the lever almost completely out), that sounds more like too much fluid in the master cylinder such that the actuator isn't allowed to fully retract, or perhaps a bad actuator or master cylinder.
Jerry
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Friction zone is a niggling issue with the hydro clutches because there is no provision for adjusting it like there is on cable clutches. I guess I have just gotten used to where it is on my bike.
Bear in mind that as the clutch plates wear, more fluid will be displaced into the master cylinder, and it will become more full.
As Jerry said, the master cylinder should not be overfilled. If the master cylinder gets too full, the clutch can start slipping because it can't fully engage because of all the fluid pressure in the system. This would normally only really be a problem if the MC was almost totally full with very little air at the top, and after the clutch plates have worn significantly... but it can happen.
Ken
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Got it... It is just a bit weird feeling when I am trying to use it to get through low speed turns. I am always concerned that my fingers will slip since it is right at the edge of release any way. I think I have gotten used to it but it is always in the back of my mind.
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It seems like there is a problem in the hydraulic clutch system, I had to have mine bled every 10-15k miles on my 2011 FLTRUSE. I hope my new 2015 FLTRUSE lasts better and longer than the other one.
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I have just gotten used to where mine engages... It is the last inch or so before being completely released.
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I had mine checked when it was new & I felt like you do about engaging so far out. It is the nature of the beast! It's not like an adjustable cable. You will get used to it. It just releases at a different point. I have changed out the fluid & it does help. I have pulled a trailer many miles & have no problem with the clutch slipping!
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Just changed and bled my clutch. It engaged right at the grip when I finished....and did not clunk. A few minutes later it engaged farther out and slammed into gear again. I did get a lot of bubbles (air) out when I first bled it.
SO, how do you bleed these? I bleed while pulling the leaver back, shut and released the lever. Should I have pulled all the way back and then opened the bleeder?
:nixweiss:
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Book says to pump the lever three times, hold in, open the bleeder valve, shut the valve, and repeat the procedure three times. Be sure to keep the reservoir from getting toO low.
If you do this with the cover off, pump SLOWLY or you can easily squirt fluid out of the reservoir!
Best to have a helper do the squeezing or the opening/closing of the bleeder valve. Tough to do both by yourself.
Ken
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Thanks, How are you placing the bars when you do the deal? I'm putting the bike level on the lift and keeping the bars turned right. This gets the master almost level as I have the 575's. Just wondering if these bars are uncovering the port when upright? I'm going to bleed again and see if I get a lot of air this time.
Maybe I should do another post to avoid jacking this one.
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When I want to adjust the friction zone I just tell my wife to get into a different position.
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Not to reawaken your thread, but I have a 2007 SERK and I have the same issues. So I think its been going on for a while...I choose to perform a gravity bleed instead. When I first did this, my clutch was amazing, but it didnt take much more than a 1000 miles or so for it to start "acting up" and now it clunks between gear changes and seems to drag from time to time...So...yea..Just FYI
Glen
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I wanted to pass on what I have learned while trying to move my clutch friction zone, or feel, closer to the grip.
I recently purchased a 2015 Trumph Bonneville with the traditional cabled clutch. I rode it exclusively for about three weeks and when I went back to my 2012 FLHXSE3 the clutch fellt like it was not engaging until the last half inch of travel. Hated it, and was a bit worried. In the past 6 weeks, Ive had a battery and volt regulator go bad, put on two new tires and front brake pads, and am expreiencing a low rpm backfire when transitioning from closed throttle to open throttle --only at 5000 feet above sea level!
So, I just figured my clutch was bad. I ordered from Amazon a Energy One +1 set with new spring (BTX-14). Sat down on my blanket and replaced my clutch. No Difference. !! So I bled the system (yucky black fluid) and still no change to the friction zone.
So I measured the old friction plates, all were right at .150, and the steels were all right at .63 with no marring or discoloration. Heck, if new ones are .150 and mine with 33,000 miles at 115 tq and 103 HP have shown no measurable wear...WTF?
Hooked my trailer up today for the first real ride with it and went up a long hill as hard as I could ride. No slipping.
So, I think the stock clutch can handle an Andrews 57 cam and headers anda good tune without any problems.
From what I have read, the clutch catches at the end of the lever travel and that is just the nature of the beast.
Riding th eBonneville tomorrow, Tail of the Dragon, Cherohala.....
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I always kept the release as far out as possible on my cable operated bikes, to keep from having to pull it very far in when shifting quick. So when I got the first hydraulic clutch and it released at approx 90% of the travel I was happy. But in the 11 years since then I hear constantly from people who have just experienced there first hydraulic clutch how they are going to have to have the clutch adjusted soon and then they think you are crazy when you tell them it does not have any adjustment.
I like it out and think most folks get used to it after awhile and just adjust themselves vs an adjustable clutch. I have never understood why anyone wants it to release closer to grip, but apparently to each his own.
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I always kept the release as far out as possible on my cable operated bikes, to keep from having to pull it very far in when shifting quick. So when I got the first hydraulic clutch and it released at approx 90% of the travel I was happy. But in the 11 years since then I hear constantly from people who have just experienced there first hydraulic clutch how they are going to have to have the clutch adjusted soon and then they think you are crazy when you tell them it does not have any adjustment.
I like it out and think most folks get used to it after awhile and just adjust themselves vs an adjustable clutch. I have never understood why anyone wants it to release closer to grip, but apparently to each his own.
I'm used to a proper clutch having the friction zone right in the middle of lever travel and be fully engaged at say 75-80% ( maybe a sense of security from the old days, when rotation of the handlebars made a difference in freeplay / adjustment of the Clutch and Throttle, an assurance that the clutch was fully engaged :nixweiss:) with the juice Clutches and TBW the handlebar rotation is no longer in play...
All my HDs (1 cable, 2 hyd) have the friction zone slap in the middle of lever travel, but after putting >500mi. on Unbalanced'd Monster 131 Pumpkin, with the friction zone in the last 30% of lever travel, I wholeheartedly agree with you! a potential side benefit could be a more complete release, less clunk going into 1st??
(Note that Unbalanced'd Pumpkin, has 0 slip, toting the front tire in the first 3 gears with ease :nervous:, spinning the rear at 50 mph :nervous: :nervous:, and consistently the quietest shift into 1st of any HD I have ridden)
Again, I agree, as long as the Clutch is getting full engagement, no slip, and a suitable friction zone, I see no downside to engagement at the end of lever travel...
JMHO, your results may vary...
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I'm used to a proper clutch having the friction zone right in the middle of lever travel and be fully engaged at say 75-80% ( maybe a sense of security from the old days, when rotation of the handlebars made a difference in freeplay / adjustment of the Clutch and Throttle, an assurance that the clutch was fully engaged :nixweiss:) with the juice Clutches and TBW the handlebar rotation is no longer in play...
All my HDs (1 cable, 2 hyd) have the friction zone slap in the middle of lever travel, but after putting >500mi. on Unbalanced'd Monster 131 Pumpkin, with the friction zone in the last 30% of lever travel, I wholeheartedly agree with you! a potential side benefit could be a more complete release, less clunk going into 1st??
(Note that Unbalanced'd Pumpkin, has 0 slip, toting the front tire in the first 3 gears with ease :nervous:, spinning the rear at 50 mph :nervous: :nervous:, and consistently the quietest shift into 1st of any HD I have ridden)
Again, I agree, as long as the Clutch is getting full engagement, no slip, and a suitable friction zone, I see no downside to engagement at the end of lever travel...
JMHO, your results may vary...
Great point, and very important! You've got to let that clutch go! You can't ease it out...once it catches or engages, let the lever go! Then, when power-shifting, (which I don't do anymore, but might again, sometime in the future!), stomp it in the next gear with the heel shifter. That's what a heel shifter is for! Don't pull the clutch lever in when goin' thru the gears, and you don't have to worry about it slippin'! You gotta' do it just right, between 57-5900, or it might not change up. That don't look good. Don't sound good, either! Tranny'll take it. It's bullet-proof. When you're "just-rite", it'll slip right in there. Don't do it everytime you mount up, just when necessary. There endeth the lesson. Later--HUBBARD
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Hub,
Are confusing a big diesel coal hauling truck with the RR 16 speed with a Harley transmission??? HD mainshaft ain't so forgiving hence speed shifters and injector cut offs.
Bad enough leaving the rear shifter on with the toll it takes on the shifter pawl forget the mainshaft hits doing that.
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Interesting threads about CVO touring clutches and their varying friction point(s)! Bought a `15 S.E.S.G. with 4000 miles that has the same problem with VERY late engagement, (can't stand clutch with no progressive feel) told by the purchase dealer its adjusted to mfg. specs!! I know better!!
I have researched and learned from multiple reliable sources that the 13-15 CVO`s have clutch fibers that are used in many Japanese motorcycle applications as well as the aforementioned H.D. Screaming Eagle bikes.
The bike is at a different dealer's service dept. for a 2nd opinion, at least they listened to my concern and inspecting the clutch. I am waiting for the dealers call any time now.
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Interesting threads about CVO touring clutches and their varying friction point(s)! Bought a `15 S.E.S.G. with 4000 miles that has the same problem with VERY late engagement, (can't stand clutch with no progressive feel) told by the purchase dealer its adjusted to mfg. specs!! I know better!!
I have researched and learned from multiple reliable sources that the 13-15 CVO`s have clutch fibers that are used in many Japanese motorcycle applications as well as the aforementioned H.D. Screaming Eagle bikes.
The bike is at a different dealer's service dept. for a 2nd opinion, at least they listened to my concern and inspecting the clutch. I am waiting for the dealers call any time now.
Let us know when they call what they say. Think you will be disappointed, but you never know.
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Hub,
Are confusing a big diesel coal hauling truck with the RR 16 speed with a Harley transmission??? HD mainshaft ain't so forgiving hence speed shifters and injector cut offs.
Bad enough leaving the rear shifter on with the toll it takes on the shifter pawl forget the mainshaft hits doing that.
Hehehe. Actually, I ain't done that since I had the '89 Ultra. I was thinking about trying, or practicing that maneuver on Maybelle, before we go to Maggie Valley. Maybe I'll rethink that, since I got a lot bigger motor than that Evo!! As far as I'm concerned, though, a Harley Tranny is one tough hombre. Only trouble I've ever had was on that 6-sp. I put in Ol' Maudie. Bearing gaulded the Main-Shaft right after we put it in. I've used Barnett, Primo Rivera, and SE clutches. Never had any problems. Garfield McCoy taught me 50 years ago, to always slam, or completely let go of a clutch on a Harley. Never get in the habit of slippin' it. But that's just me. Everybody has their riding style. Later--HUBBARD
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CVODon, you were right spoke with the dealer yesterday about the bad clutch on my S.E.S.G. and after inspection, measuring the clutch lift and plates "no problem found". Imagine that?
I have discovered that Barnett has diiferent thickness steel plates am going to try and maniupilate the clutch pack thickness to briing in the friction zone the normal range for me.
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When I want to adjust the friction zone I just tell my wife to get into a different position.
Hehehe. You're so nasty. Later--HUBBARD
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Hehehe. You're so nasty. Later--HUBBARD
Hehehehehe... like you ain't never said or done that (I'm guilty too). ;) :D
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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CVODon, you were right spoke with the dealer yesterday about the bad clutch on my S.E.S.G. and after inspection, measuring the clutch lift and plates "no problem found". Imagine that?
I have discovered that Barnett has diiferent thickness steel plates am going to try and maniupilate the clutch pack thickness to briing in the friction zone the normal range for me.
Best "friction zone" was on my '05 SEEG, short off the grip & positive ...'06 CUSE was close...
My '07, '09, '10, '12 & my '14 couldn't come close
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Happy Holidays everyone. I wanted to give an update the noisy and erratic clutch on my `15 S.E. Street Glide flakey A&S clutch. The infamous issues were late engagement, rattling and a clicking sound coming from the clutch master on shifts.
A 2nd option dealer visit (Wilkesboro, N.C.) other than the original purchase Harley store on my first visit there says no problem found "normal clutch operation".
Did a lot of research and made many phone calls to corporate H.D. and different dealers and in my area. I continued to get the usual dealership runaround. Over time reverted back to the 2nd opinion shop and speaking with the Wilkesboro, N.C. dealership owner, the G.M and eventually the shop foreman/lead tech.
I had a positive talk with the shop foreman, finally my concerns were listened to, he listened and ordered a new clutch assembly and new clutch master resulting in proper clutch action with the engagement point in the middle as it should be. Hope that it lasts!