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[Texas 103]

Well how did it go?



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Gear set out, my guy can't get to it until Tuesday. Will change out trap door bearings and install new  " scissor" gear.Thought it was much better to pay a pro to do this part who's been there done that!  Probably won't get it back in the bike until after Christmas.   

 Found out something very interesting . Decided to get the  dial indicator out  and measure both the Lateral and the  radial play in low  gear just for the hell of it to see if I could figure out something on why it rattles.   

Harley Specs Are as follows : 
First Gear End play ( Axial) 0.001-0.023  Mine was 0.008-0.009 ! ..OOPS >>> No wonder it's noisy..
First Gear Clearance ( Radial) 0.0004-0.0020 Mine was 0.001 Good there.     

This gear sits on needle bearings on the shaft. Could understand a little wiggle and that may be the nature of the beast.     Extra clearance and the biggest gear on the countershaft with the most mass.   I could grab the gear  with my fingers and wiggle it back and forth on the shaft, without the shaft moving. .When I saw that , out came the dial indicator !   Really starting to understand what's going on, and why they rattle more when warm/hot .  Low gear is the one on the far left on the countershaft.   

Thinking HD probably changed vendors or something  for gears, countershafts  who knows. Just for grins I'd love to have an old gear set laying around and measure ..  Will be measuring the " new gear" to see what it changed , one way or another. 

I am hoping this works..!! Guess we'll see soon...

[Cecild211]

Gear set out, my guy can't get to it until Tuesday. Will change out trap door bearings and install new  " scissor" gear.Thought it was much better to pay pro to do this part who's been there done that!  Probably won't get it back in until after Christmas.   

 Found out something very interesting . Decided to get the  dial indicator out  and measure both the Lateral and the  radial play in low  gear just for the hell of it to see if I could figure out something on why it rattles.   

Harley Specs Are as follows : 
First Gear End play ( Axial) 0.001-0.023  Mine was 0.008-0.009 ! ..OOPS >>> No wonder it's noisy..
First Gear Clearance ( Radial) 0.0004-0.0020 Mine was 0.001 Good there.     

No wonder it rattles..! Extra clearance and the biggest gear on the countershaft.   I could grab the gear  with my fingers and wiggle it back and forth on the shaft, without the shaft moving. .When I saw that , out came the dial indicator !   Really starting to understand what's going on, and why they rattle more when warm/hot .  Low gear is the one on the far left on the countershaft.   

Thinking HD probably changed vendors or something  for gears, countershafts  who knows. Just for grins I'd love to have an old gear set laying around and measure ..  Will be measuring the " new gear" to see what it changed , one way or another. 

I am hoping this works..!! Guess we'll see soon...

Great write up and yes please keep us updated.  I can see a lot of upgrades about to take place if this pans out. 

Cee


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[fastfreddy]

well the dealer called me yesterday...you will never guess what they told me about the noise, there tech put a ear to it and said ...wait for it .... they all do that, so bike coming back home. hope this gear deal works out so i can take care of it myself. still not mad about it just disappointed

[Texas 103]

well the dealer called me yesterday...you will never guess what they told me about the noise, there tech put a ear to it and said ...wait for it .... they all do that, so bike coming back home. hope this gear deal works out so i can take care of it myself. still not mad about it just disappointed

I'm with you Freddy..I've had 4 CVO's and none of them did it..  Same here, just wondering now If I should buy a new countershaft in case the one  that's in there is a tad small. Bet your azz I'm taking the mics with me when we do this and measure it.  Not sure if a new countershaft would measure differently either.  Stay tuned

[Texas 103]

Great write up and yes please keep us updated.  I can see a lot of upgrades about to take place if this pans out. 

Cee


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Amen on the upgrades  Cee. Could see a few of the boys around here  getting busy and scissor gear sales going up...lol

[LMH]

well the dealer called me yesterday...you will never guess what they told me about the noise, there tech put a ear to it and said ...wait for it .... they all do that, so bike coming back home. hope this gear deal works out so i can take care of it myself. still not mad about it just disappointed

Sounds familiar... waiting to hear from Milwaukee on when they are sending a tech out to look at my bike here in So Cal. Expect after the first of the year. Local dealer has heard from them and they will check out the bike. Hopefully i won't get the same response from the factory tech that the dealer tech gave me.
Good attitude on your part about not getting mad. Unfortunately I don't have the skills to fix it myself or i would.
Hope the fix works for Texas 103 so i can lay it on the tech in January.

[Texas 103]

Sounds familiar... waiting to hear from Milwaukee on when they are sending a tech out to look at my bike here in So Cal. Expect after the first of the year. Local dealer has heard from them and they will check out the bike. Hopefully i won't get the same response from the factory tech that the dealer tech gave me.
Good attitude on your part about not getting mad. Unfortunately I don't have the skills to fix it myself or i would.
Hope the fix works for Texas 103 so i can lay it on the tech in January.

After a couple of cups of coffee this morning ...Here's my theory on what's up. Was thinking about how that gear rides on the countershaft. It's sits on needle bearings as seen in the picture below. Naturally it will have to have a little clearance to work correctly, to get a little lube in there, keep it cool  heat expansion etc. You will also notice that the bearing has a ' slot" in it.  It slides  on the countershaft with the gear and I'm guessing the "slot" in the bearing is for a  different sizes of both the gear and countershaft.

 Here's my theory: I'm thinking that the ones that rattle obviously have a little "extra" clearance in this gear,like mine.  This is the biggest gear on the countershaft with the most mass,riding on  needle bearings and could move around the most.

 Harry and I were discussing this and with the 110 being what it is, the 255 cam with short intake close, generating higher cylinder pressure at idle.  The  greater  uneven pulses  of the motor,shocks the drive line a little harder and it rattles if it's a  little loose.Wondering if a cam like the 24-D or something similar with a later intake close would make a difference?? 

Thinking this is why HD changed this gear for '17,to take up the "slack" and  keep it quiet. Don't think this gear would be any cheaper than what was used prior '17, I don't know. Hopefully  a good trans guy here can chime in and see if this makes sense or I just showed my a** and should hit delete and shut up....lol                       

[Texas 103]

After a couple of cups of coffee this morning ...Here's my theory on what's up. Was thinking about how that gear rides on the countershaft. It's sits on needle bearings as seen in the picture below. Naturally it will have to have a little clearance to work correctly, to get a little lube in there, keep it cool  heat expansion etc. You will also notice that the bearing has a ' slot" in it.  It slides  on the countershaft with the gear and I'm guessing the "slot" in the bearing is for a  different sizes of both the gear and countershaft.

 Here's my theory: I'm thinking that the ones that rattle obviously have a little "extra" clearance in this gear,like mine.  This is the biggest gear on the countershaft with the most mass,riding on  needle bearings and could move around the most.

 Couple that up with the 110 being what it is, and the 255 cam with short intake close, generating higher cylinder pressure at idle.  The  greater  uneven pulses  of the motor,shocks the drive line a little harder and it rattles. Wondering if a cam like the 24-D or something similar with a later intake close would make a difference?? 

Thinking this is why HD changed this gear for '17,to keep it quiet. Don't think this gear would be any cheaper than what was used prior '17, I don't know. Hopefully  a good trans guy here can chime in and see if this makes sense or I just showed my a** and should hit delete and shut up....lol                     

[Texas 103]

Went back at looked at Service Bulletin M-1304 which we are all familiar with. What i just noticed is the only vehicles affected ; all 2007 and later Touring, Dyna,Softail and Twin Cam engine affected CVO motorcycles. Rattle just  applies to all 110's, nothing else.. ??   Hmm.. Was so pissed when I read this I didn't pick that up. Have not heard it on anything else yet..

[Cecild211]

Went back at looked at Service Bulletin M-1304 which we are all familiar with. What i just noticed is the only vehicles affected ; all 2007 and later Touring, Dyna,Softail and Twin Cam engine affected CVO motorcycles. Rattle just  applies to all 110's, nothing else.. ??   Hmm.. Was so pissed when I read this I didn't pick that up. Have not heard it on anything else yet..

I believe my 103 has this problem as well.  But it does not have stock cams.  This maybe why it shows up more


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[Texas 103]

I believe my 103 has this problem as well.  But it does not have stock cams.  This maybe why it shows up more


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Interesting...would think cams with a later closing intake would help that , maybe something I'm missing in process..

[LMH]

Went back at looked at Service Bulletin M-1304 which we are all familiar with. What i just noticed is the only vehicles affected ; all 2007 and later Touring, Dyna,Softail and Twin Cam engine affected CVO motorcycles. Rattle just  applies to all 110's, nothing else.. ??   Hmm.. Was so pissed when I read this I didn't pick that up. Have not heard it on anything else yet..

This is what i have believed for some time. Always seems to be the 110. Never seen or heard of the issue from associates with other motors and never had the experience until I "stepped up" to a 110. Have never seen failures in all my years around the bikes like i have seen from the 110's since inception. Honestly have friends who have had three motors in the same bike replaced by HD over a 5 year period , all 110 CVO's. The fact that they refuse to acknowledge a problem irritates me no end. They just believe it is cheaper to replace a few hundred motors a year than acknowledge a problem. I honestly believe many owners just don't mind the noise and the inconvenience of repairs. Many of us have just come to expect it from the MFG. Written off as part of the HD experience i guess. I admit  I was that way until I wrote a check for over 40K for a motorcycle and decided I expected more for my $$ .
Rant over for today....

[grc]

Went back at looked at Service Bulletin M-1304 which we are all familiar with. What i just noticed is the only vehicles affected ; all 2007 and later Touring, Dyna,Softail and Twin Cam engine affected CVO motorcycles. Rattle just  applies to all 110's, nothing else.. ??   Hmm.. Was so pissed when I read this I didn't pick that up. Have not heard it on anything else yet..

Actually it applies to ALL 2007 and later Twin Cam engines, including CVO models.  So that would include TC96, TC103, and CVO110's.

The problem was created when Harley designed the Cruise Drive trans and went with the cheapest designs and methods in the trans.  Some gears were made integral with the shafts as a cost savings, which creates opportunity for more variation.  They incorporated a flimsy and somewhat Mickey Mouse trap door and bearing setup, which creates much more variation.  Think about similar changes made for the 2007 Twin Cam, like the flywheel assemblies.  It was all about cheapening the product (but not the price).

Instead of fixing the root cause of the issue in the Cruise Drive trans, they've chosen to add the scissor gear as a variable way to address the noise created by excessive gear lash.  If it does the job and eliminates the noise, fine.  But it is still just a Band Aid IMHO.

Jerry

[Texas 103]

Actually it applies to ALL 2007 and later Twin Cam engines, including CVO models.  So that would include TC96, TC103, and CVO110's.

The problem was created when Harley designed the Cruise Drive trans and went with the cheapest designs and methods in the trans.  Some gears were made integral with the shafts as a cost savings, which creates opportunity for more variation.  They incorporated a flimsy and somewhat Mickey Mouse trap door and bearing setup, which creates much more variation.  Think about similar changes made for the 2007 Twin Cam, like the flywheel assemblies.  It was all about cheapening the product (but not the price).

Instead of fixing the root cause of the issue in the Cruise Drive trans, they've chosen to add the scissor gear as a variable way to address the noise created by excessive gear lash.  If it does the job and eliminates the noise, fine.  But it is still just a Band Aid IMHO.

Jerry

Kinda what I was thinking also Jerry, I knew that wasn't a real high end trans. True..the  scissor gear is just a band aid ,to take up the slack  so they can still build em cheap! .  Must have interpeted that bulletin wrong. Hell if I can get it quiet for under $200..that works, unless I want to call Baker.. 

[Texas 103]

Kinda what I was thinking also Jerry, I knew that wasn't a real high end trans. True..the  scissor gear is just a band aid ,to take up the slack  so they can still build em cheap! .  Must have interpeted that bulletin wrong. Hell if I can get it quiet for under $200..that works, unless I want to call Baker..

Just got the gear set back with new gear installed!, nice and tight..The gear  dropped right in there no problem.  Now the real test! .Going to slide the gear set  it back in there tonight , spending the next few days with family in IL. Back the 28th hopefully get it buttoned up and try it out! .