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Author Topic: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?  (Read 16956 times)

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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2017, 08:49:57 PM »

A few thoughts.
- HD's stage 3 vs stage 4 torque profiles are nearly identical. The main difference of the stage 4 vs 3 is the 4's higher flow generating higher hp in higher rpms.
- if you want the best torque profile in a touring bike with an HD cam and you rarely ride above 3000 rpms, then the stock cam is your best bet. Forget about both the stage 3 or 4 kits if you ride below 3000 rpms since their advantage is above 3000 rpms
- Another thought is that with more timing advance and tuning with a Powervision plus a free flowing headpipe (warranty may be an issue), the lower end torque will be much improved in both Stage 3 & 4 kits without giving up the higher rpm hp.

The best torque profile I have seen so far was for the Woods M8-222 cam, I have seen the test's not for sale yet.  With a good head pipe, mufflers, that cam and a tune it was a very good touring torque curve.  Over 110 torque from 2250 RPM to 4500 RPM, with a peak of 121.64.  Over 120 from 2750rpm to 3600rpm.

You pretty much sum up why I don't do HD kits, all I did was use their 117 cylinders on my 13 CVO King.  Hwy cruising is right at 3000 RPM.  Twisty mountain roads is 2500 to 4000 RPM.  My CVO King is 120 torque by 2700rpm, 130 torque by 3200rpm and a peak torque of 140, and does not fall 135 torque until 5300rpm.  Hp peak is only 138.  Never have to down shift to pass, pulls like a train out of the curves on an uphill. 
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Heatwave

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2017, 10:22:24 PM »

The best torque profile I have seen so far was for the Woods M8-222 cam, I have seen the test's not for sale yet.  With a good head pipe, mufflers, that cam and a tune it was a very good touring torque curve.  Over 110 torque from 2250 RPM to 4500 RPM, with a peak of 121.64.  Over 120 from 2750rpm to 3600rpm.

You pretty much sum up why I don't do HD kits, all I did was use their 117 cylinders on my 13 CVO King.  Hwy cruising is right at 3000 RPM.  Twisty mountain roads is 2500 to 4000 RPM.  My CVO King is 120 torque by 2700rpm, 130 torque by 3200rpm and a peak torque of 140, and does not fall 135 torque until 5300rpm.  Hp peak is only 138.  Never have to down shift to pass, pulls like a train out of the curves on an uphill. 

Unfortunately after HD's consent decree with EPA, if you have any desire to hang on to your warranty its best to keep at least the internal parts as close to HD as possible. If the warranty diesn't matter then there are lots of great aftermarket performance alternatives.
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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2017, 09:05:48 PM »

I do understand what your saying about warranty.  My 13 King, purchases in Nov of 2012, I built the motor in Jan of 13 the first time, so warranty was gone.  Had better luck with this bike than the ones I kept factory warranty.

On the 17's they claim if you change the head pipe to no cat aftermarket the warranty is gone.  Some dealers are saying they will still cover it.

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SDCVO

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2017, 10:09:47 PM »

For whatever it is worth, here is my plan that my dealer and I came up with. My goal from the start with this bike is to keep it under the warranty for the full 7 years since I screwed up the warranty almost immediately on my Roadglide and just got it back from having to get a new 124 motor which as you all know wasn't cheap (though that motor is insanely fun and worth it..).
I like the way the bike runs with the stage 3 but hate the way it sounds even with the CFR slip ons and have come to the conclusion I just can't live with it. I love the tone but they sound plugged up which of course they are. I am going to put on the Fuel Moto header (shipping out Monday) with the CFR mufflers which I think will fix the issue. We are going to try and make it all work with the new SE tuner that we had to do when we did the stage 3. If he can't then we will add the new HD Auto tune when it is available which right now says mid April. I am keeping the stock exhaust (header and mufflers) and if we have an issue that involves a rep checking it out (he is more concerned about the extended warranty company than the motor co.). he said if we have a failure that would involve them coming out and checking the exhaust would be off anyway so we would never even end up installing it, just laying it close to the bike.
Obviously my dealer is being fantastic about helping me out here which I really appreciate it for sure.
we will see but "on paper" this plan should fix my problem I have with the bike-will see...
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Alan

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2017, 08:00:40 AM »

For whatever it is worth, here is my plan that my dealer and I came up with. My goal from the start with this bike is to keep it under the warranty for the full 7 years since I screwed up the warranty almost immediately on my Roadglide and just got it back from having to get a new 124 motor which as you all know wasn't cheap (though that motor is insanely fun and worth it..).
I like the way the bike runs with the stage 3 but hate the way it sounds even with the CFR slip ons and have come to the conclusion I just can't live with it. I love the tone but they sound plugged up which of course they are. I am going to put on the Fuel Moto header (shipping out Monday) with the CFR mufflers which I think will fix the issue. We are going to try and make it all work with the new SE tuner that we had to do when we did the stage 3. If he can't then we will add the new HD Auto tune when it is available which right now says mid April. I am keeping the stock exhaust (header and mufflers) and if we have an issue that involves a rep checking it out (he is more concerned about the extended warranty company than the motor co.). he said if we have a failure that would involve them coming out and checking the exhaust would be off anyway so we would never even end up installing it, just laying it close to the bike.
Obviously my dealer is being fantastic about helping me out here which I really appreciate it for sure.
we will see but "on paper" this plan should fix my problem I have with the bike-will see...

I like your way of thinking here but, I have a feeling your going to find that the EPA tune provided by HD for the free flow exhaust is not going to accommodate the fuel required for your free flowing exhaust.  Your CFR's and FM head pipe are going to let that motor breath much better than the HD free flowing exhaust thus requiring AFR adjustment that the HD tuner will not allow. I could be wrong but I know someone who is trying to use the PRO Street tuner with a header/street cannon set-up and claims its running worse and is contemplating going back to stock.  If your dealer is willing to work with you, why not use the PV-2 and get a great tune for what your attempting.  Bike has a failure, the components like you state are lying next to the bike, and the bike is flashed back to your PRO Street tuner set-up for Stage 3.  MOCO and warranty company can only see the ECM was flashed, and the number of times not what the flash was. 

I know that is my plan.. PV-2 with Target Tune and stage 3.. My FM Header arrives on Thursday. Dyno-jet already sent me both .pvt tunes, with and without Target Tune. I am currently running it without til header is installed.   The beauty of PV-2, you can perform a series of Auto tunes to dial it in just for your bike. HD PRO Street Tuner is a canned EPA map.
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SOLD-'15 CVO Street Glide. H.C. Mercury Mods are: FM 2-1-2 ceramic header, E-Series FM slip-ons, PV-2, 110 tweaked by Fuel Moto, Detachable Tour-Pak, Heated Seat & Grips and the list goes on....

spook120

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2017, 09:09:25 PM »

So I wonder if the stage 3 HD kit with a de-catted headpipe and slip on mufflers could make 120/120 and still be reliable as an anvil?  Now that would be a bike I could really appreciate.  One other thing, and this is just my .02 I am rather tired of this constant discussion about keeping warranty vs non warranty.  It is your bloody bike, if you want to be sure to keep the warranty then play by the HD rules.  If not then do what ever makes the bike do what you want it to do and be willing to accept the consequences of that decision... Pretty simple huh?  Thanks for the replies. 
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SDCVO

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2017, 09:48:56 PM »

I like your way of thinking here but, I have a feeling your going to find that the EPA tune provided by HD for the free flow exhaust is not going to accommodate the fuel required for your free flowing exhaust.  Your CFR's and FM head pipe are going to let that motor breath much better than the HD free flowing exhaust thus requiring AFR adjustment that the HD tuner will not allow. I could be wrong but I know someone who is trying to use the PRO Street tuner with a header/street cannon set-up and claims its running worse and is contemplating going back to stock.  If your dealer is willing to work with you, why not use the PV-2 and get a great tune for what your attempting.  Bike has a failure, the components like you state are lying next to the bike, and the bike is flashed back to your PRO Street tuner set-up for Stage 3.  MOCO and warranty company can only see the ECM was flashed, and the number of times not what the flash was. 

I know that is my plan.. PV-2 with Target Tune and stage 3.. My FM Header arrives on Thursday. Dyno-jet already sent me both .pvt tunes, with and without Target Tune. I am currently running it without til header is installed.   The beauty of PV-2, you can perform a series of Auto tunes to dial it in just for your bike. HD PRO Street Tuner is a canned EPA map.
I hear what you are saying and obviously am worried about that but they think they can make it work. If it doesn't then I will go to a after market tuner. I think their issue is if they can make it work with the HD tuner they don't think they are going "as deep" with warranty fraud since whatever at that point failed really wouldn't have anything to do with the exhaust. If they can't make it work then we won't have any choice but to change tuner.
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Alan

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2017, 08:46:25 PM »

Dealer called this morning and said my kit was in. Dropped the bike off this afternoon. Should have it back Wednesday !
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spook120

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2017, 08:56:04 PM »

Great! Maybe with your ride report this thread can get back to the original intent and stop with all the hand wringing about warranty vs non warranty issues. I for one am anxious to hear your first hand opinions. Thanks in advance.
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SDCVO

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2017, 10:07:20 PM »

Great! Maybe with your ride report this thread can get back to the original intent and stop with all the hand wringing about warranty vs non warranty issues. I for one am anxious to hear your first hand opinions. Thanks in advance.
sorry about that..
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Alan

Heatwave

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2017, 10:21:31 PM »

Warranty is definitely a part of the discussion related to the name of this thread. There are lots of options for increasing the performance of a Milwaukee 8 engine. For those considering using all HD parts (stage 4 for example), one of the motivations is to maintain the factory and the extrnded service coverage. If warranty is a non issue there are certainly better approaches to maximize M8 performance using great aftermarket shops to work the heads, increase compression and improve torque and HP with non-HD cams and exhaust. The primary reason for using Hd's stage 4 components is to maintain the warranty.
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spook120

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2017, 10:39:29 PM »

Didn't mean to be pissy. Guess I am just anxious for definitive opinions on whether to spend the cash for the various upgrade possibilities or to leave the bike alone as I did my 2015.  But then again I dumped that bike in less than 2000 miles as it did not excited me in the slightest. Again I apologize if I came off as a hard ass but am a bit frustrated with this whole HD warranty crap...even if it is an important consideration in the whole scheme of things.
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SDCVO

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2017, 11:15:38 PM »

No problem. Here's some real seat time perspective. I bought my 2017 CVO Limited in Oct 2016. Rode it 1500. Upgraded to stage 3. Rode it 500 miles. Uograded to Stage 4. Rode it 75 miles so far.

Assessment:
- stock bike is strongest between 2000-3000 rpms, dead above 3500
- stage 3 is Ok btw 2-3000 rpms, strong above 3500
- stage 4 is ok btw 2-3000 rpms (about the same as stage 3), REALLY strong above 3500 rpms.

I plan to add Fuelmoto headpipe and tune my stage 4 using Powervision. My last bike 2010 CVO Ultra, with improved exhaust and Powervision tuning had tremendous performance improvement particularly in lower rpms. I'm hoping for similar results on this CVO after the tuning and exhaust improvement.

Recommendation: if you do most of your riding between 2-3000 and really don't look to pump adrenaline above 3500, do yourself a favor and save your money. The stock performance is your best bet (85/102) with excellent low end trq. If you plan to only upgrade with HD components, the stage 3 (105/115 stock exhaust) is a far better investment than gong with stage 4 (115/115 with stock exhaust). If you're trying to "walk the HD line" on warranty, then improved tuning and exhaust will maximize stage 4 performance and keep you close to HD components (125/125). If warranty and money is no issue, then go with one of the excellent aftermarket engine builder-tuners and my guess is you can get the bike into the 140/140 range.
Great and accurate summary Heatwave!
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Alan

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2017, 11:20:47 PM »

Thank you!  Exactly the information I wanted. My dealer is pretty cool as the wrench immediately suggested a Borzilla and tts tune with stage 4 kit...with full warranty. So stage 4 it will be with a decent exhaust and tune.  Now I can get excited about getting my bike in April.  Appreciate your input.
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SemperFi64

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Re: Anybody ride a cvo with the stage 4 kit yet?
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2017, 10:37:45 PM »

CVO SG 114CI 2017
Stage IV will be installed on March 21, 2017. Big bucks for just afew more CI s (5-Big ones $).   Too top that off the governor per HD will cut u off at 90. or so IM told. Let ya know more at the end of the month
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