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Hondo2doc

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Oil usage
« on: March 06, 2017, 01:21:28 PM »

I have a 2015 SESG. I was using an excessive amount of oil. So several weeks ago I see a drop of oil on the cam cover. Further investigation removing air filter shows oil dripping off back plate and lower filter drenched in oil. Go to dealer they replace umbrella valves. So a few weeks goes by. I check oil again and see I am using oil again. Also back plate dripping with oil again.

So gonna go back to dealer. It's still under warranty. Not being a motor guy I wanted some input as to what the problem might be. And what the dealer should do to repair. Thanks in advance for any advice.


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lanesplitter

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2017, 02:49:25 PM »

By excessive, do you mean your using up oil and have to add? Or it's leaking, spurting out? Might be you have too much oil and it's flowing back
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FlaHeatWave

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2017, 03:09:05 PM »

Could be bad Rings,,,
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 03:19:44 PM by FlaHeatWave »
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Hondo2doc

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2017, 05:28:05 PM »

Yes to using oil and have to add. The only place I see oil is some drops on cam cover. But also dripping off air filter back plate and bottom of air filter.

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Twolanerider

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2017, 06:03:34 PM »

You never say how much oil is being lost.  Quart to how many miles?
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Hondo2doc

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2017, 08:31:33 PM »

I'll go through more than a quart in a thousand miles.

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Cecild211

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2017, 08:55:11 PM »

Im pretty sure your not losing that much through the filter.  I hope your dealer isn't like others mentioned on here that say that is normal. 

Mine has always had a puking problem. I run about .25 quart below max fill line and this seems to help. 

But that's probably minor to where the oil is going.  Do you see smoke from exhaust?  Is your exhaust bad sooty?  Is primary oil level remaining normal?


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Twolanerider

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2017, 09:16:57 PM »

I'll go through more than a quart in a thousand miles.

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Yeap, obviously excessive; and obviously considerably more than you'd have just coming out of the breather (at least not without an oil slick down the side of the bike).  Definitely time for a leakdown test of one hasn't been done.  No need to speculate when you can find out that simply.
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Hondo2doc

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2017, 09:23:19 PM »

Primary oil level is fine. I nor my friends have seen any smoke from  exhaust. Oil on cam cover, on rear cylinder exhaust heat shield and dripping off underside of air filter.

It sounds like you guys are suggesting rings?


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Twolanerider

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2017, 09:52:35 PM »

Primary oil level is fine. I nor my friends have seen any smoke from  exhaust. Oil on cam cover, on rear cylinder exhaust heat shield and dripping off underside of air filter.

It sounds like you guys are suggesting rings?


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Not suggesting any one specific thing.  As much oil as you describe is unlikely to be leak or breather related without showing more mess than I sense you're describing.  If it's not all outside the only other option is inside.  That could be rings or valves though.  Many problems reported with guides and guide seals in recent years.  The only thing I actually know about your engine is I don't know anything about your engine.  Having said that I also know a simple leakdown test, done properly, has to point you in the right direction.  It's easier, faster, but often less fun to actually diagnose and test than it is to guess online  :huepfenlol2: .
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Hondo2doc

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2017, 10:21:10 PM »

Thx so much for your ideas and input.


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SDCVO

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2017, 11:31:31 PM »

I'll go through more than a quart in a thousand miles.

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I do also on both my bikes
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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2017, 07:24:16 AM »

I had a similar problem with my 11 CVO Ultra & the blow by would be on the pants of my right leg.. Dealer installed new umbrella valves & I routed a breather tube down to a catch can. There is a thread on how to do the breather upgrade. It is simple to do! Also the 110 motors don't like to be lugged!  So if you are running below 2800 to 3000 in sixth gear you're lugging the motor & is going to push oil out the breather & down on your nose cone & exhaust. Shift to 5th gear  & run the higher rpms & your 110 will run better & not be dripping oil out the breather. So far it has worked for me.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 07:26:46 AM by danner55 »
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prodrag1320

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2017, 06:57:00 AM »

3 possible causes for oil coming thru A/C (breathers):
1. oil tank over filled (fill to proper lever or just below)
2.blow by from bad rings (leak down motor,bore top OS pistons/rings,i wouldn't just re-ring it)
3. sumping (run,then drain lower end to see how much comes out,should be no more than 4-5 oz,this can be caused by a bad pump seal or crank out of true to the point of causing pump damage)

Hondo2doc

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2017, 07:16:59 AM »

Thx very much excellent ideas.


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mark

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2017, 11:06:09 PM »

I'll go through more than a quart in a thousand miles.

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Unfortunately, this problem occurs way too much on the 110.  There's several posts on this forum about the same problem.  I babied my 110 and it started using a qt. of oil per 1,000 miles at the 10k mark.  Also, you'd think using that much oil you'd see smoke coming from the exhaust, but no.  It is now someone else's bike...traded it for something better.
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HOGMIKE

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2017, 01:28:54 PM »

I'll go through more than a quart in a thousand miles.

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IMHO, too much. You run 3 1/2 quarts in the sump???
NONE of my late model baggers ever used that much oil.
 8)
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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2017, 07:25:38 PM »

i have 3700 miles on mine and on my 6th quart of oil. but harley says its normal. they cant find an oil leak.
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Twolanerider

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2017, 07:32:58 PM »

i have 3700 miles on mine and on my 6th quart of oil. but harley says its normal. they cant find an oil leak.

Harley says it's normal or some service writer says it's normal to have a quart of oil go through the engine every 615 miles?  I know to you it's the same thing.  But if it's the dipstick service writer telling you this it's time to go over his head.  If it's Mother Harley itself its time to complain to a higher level representative and/or start documenting the service requests on this so you can get the greatest conversion from any Lemon Law exchange or buyout that might become necessary and available. 

What was your response to the person who had either the nerve or the ineptitude to tell you that a quart to 600 is "normal?"
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Roadblock

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2017, 07:56:01 PM »

i told him he was an idiot. i decided to wait until a CVO Roadglide comes out and ill trade it. baby it in the mean time. my health is not good enough for me to ride a bunch anyway.
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Twolanerider

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2017, 09:47:52 PM »

i told him he was an idiot. i decided to wait until a CVO Roadglide comes out and ill trade it. baby it in the mean time. my health is not good enough for me to ride a bunch anyway.

That's still letting the dealer and manufacturer get away with feeding you bullchit AND dumping a known problem off on the next rider who will end up with it.
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Trapperdog

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2017, 10:31:28 PM »

That's still letting the dealer and manufacturer get away with feeding you bullchit AND dumping a known problem off on the next rider who will end up with it.
Absolutely.  I had an '05 that was using over a quart per 1K miles. The dealer gave me the same BS after having me come in every week to check the level.  He was nice enough to get the local service rep on the phone who also fed me the same.  I was polite, let hem finish and asked him "if he thought a judge would would agree that a one year old bike with 10K miles should be burning a qt of oil every 1k miles, as I would be heading directly to file in small claims after finishing the call?"  Four days later I received the bike back with new guides and rings (in theory any way, but it stopped using oil)
I wouldn't want anyone else inheriting the bike with that problem either 
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mark

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2017, 11:49:33 PM »

Based on HD's "it's normal to burn a quart of oil per 1,000 miles" position, I'd like to ask one of their reps why the manual calls for an oil change every 5k miles?  Based on this level of oil consumption, an owner would have completely replaced the crankcase's capacity after 5k miles.  If this is normal, the manual should specify that only the filter needs to be replaced...no need to change the oil.
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CHH_Badkarma

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2017, 02:12:18 AM »

Modern day return to the ol "total loss" oiling system lol
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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2017, 09:07:03 AM »


The old "acceptable oil consumption" charts date back to the middle of the last century, and they exist in the automotive world as well as at Harley.  They were originally created to provide guidelines for the dealers and to prevent them from attempting repairs and submitting warranty claims for issues the manufacturers considered to be acceptable.  Back in those days, oil consumption was normal thanks to the limitations of materials, machining, etc., and the charts reflected consumption that could occur even when all the parts were within the tolerances common in the day.  However, since the 1980's there have been massive improvements in materials and manufacturing processes, to the point that we have engines in the auto industry these days that require much less maintenance and are much more reliable.  It's not uncommon for an engine to go a couple hundred thousand miles with nothing more than scheduled maintenance, as opposed to the fifty thousand miles and an overhaul common back in the day. 

The consumption charts still exist, but no one believes or accepts the conclusions of those charts in the auto business.  Only the most anal service managers try to blow that smoke up customers butts, and those who try often find themselves on the losing side of a lawsuit.  It's well past time for Harley customers to also stop accepting BS.  They are paying just as much for a Harley as most people pay for a car, and they should be able to expect industry standard quality and reliability.  A properly assembled late model Harley engine should be more than capable of running five thousand miles without having to add a quart of oil.  The fact that many cannot do that is due to poor decisions and poor quality control at H-D, not any technological hurdle imposed only on H-D.

Jerry
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ultraswede

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2017, 02:39:58 PM »

I seated my ring with the "high load low rpm" method. ( new CVO LTD)
Added 2% outboard mineral oil to the first tank of gas.
Kept the rpm below 3000 the first 800 km.

At 6000 km/ 3750 miles Zero oil consumption.
Installed the SE 117 kit at that mileage, all looked pristine.
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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2017, 01:49:28 PM »

i called the dealer back and said others have had this problem and a quart every 600 miles is a problem.  It took a year but they finally decided they should fix it.
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Chief Bart

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2017, 11:25:41 AM »

After complaining over the past three years about oil consumption and low oil pressure, I finally got a dealer to investigate and determined crankshaft was way out of specs which in turn damaged oil pump, causing sumping issues along with poor oil oiling throughout engine. This also caused weeping at the air cleaner and poor oil consumption. I was going through a quart about every 5 or 600 miles. End result, catastrophic engine failure that requires a long block or rebuild. Not to mention the rounds I have had to go to prove to ESP that I have properly maintained bike.
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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2017, 03:09:40 PM »

At least in the Shovelhead days you could see the loss on the ground under the bike. It seems over the years the MOCO uses the NORMAL answer for all their quality control issues. But mostly they get away with it as folks keep on buying.
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Hondo2doc

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2017, 09:04:10 AM »

Ok I have an update. Took bike to dealer they investigated and determined it was rings.  So they began the breakdown. Once they had both cylinders off they saw a substantial groove cut into the front cylinder. About 2 inches down from the top and half way around the circle. Well dealer contacted mother Harley and a day later said new motor. So they are sending a new motor for my bike. Mother Harley's thinking was a gouge that large has sent metal all through the motor. Fortunately for me this happened about 6 weeks before my warranty runs out. My bike has 29000 miles on it. Gonna miss the Leesburg bike fest but oh well I'll have damn near a new scooter.


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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2017, 10:38:50 AM »

Ok I have an update. Took bike to dealer they investigated and determined it was rings.  So they began the breakdown. Once they had both cylinders off they saw a substantial groove cut into the front cylinder. About 2 inches down from the top and half way around the circle. Well dealer contacted mother Harley and a day later said new motor. So they are sending a new motor for my bike. Mother Harley's thinking was a gouge that large has sent metal all through the motor. Fortunately for me this happened about 6 weeks before my warranty runs out. My bike has 29000 miles on it. Gonna miss the Leesburg bike fest but oh well I'll have damn near a new scooter.


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That's great there doing the right thing and replacing the engine, but I wonder what caused the groove, lifters staring to come apart??
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Hondo2doc

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2017, 11:46:26 AM »

Well that's a great question that no one at the dealer has been able to answer. Cause I have asked it.

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lanesplitter

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Re: Oil usage
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2017, 11:16:03 PM »

Good news
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